How much debt are you graduating with?

[RomanTaylor]

I completely understand what you are saying but to say that time does not equal money is just a false statement in the real world.

Officer's pay (which I'm not by any means downgrading) is what, perhaps 80k a year (I'm not saying that this is not enough to be happy, but just evaluating it from an economic perspective)

A PCP will earn, let's say 180k a year (100k per year more than officer pay)

After taxes in each scenario, say that difference is only 60k per year.

Assuming you live the same lifestyle, even if you are 200k in debt coming out of med school, you are coming out ahead after 3 years (and significantly more each year after that)

Again, this is not to say that you are not going to be happy with your decision - it's just that opportunity cost must always be factored. I.E. - being forced into pathway A does not allow you to pursue pathway B, therefore you lose X amount of $ (money lost, whether in the form of loans/debt towards education or from the opportunity cost is the same in the end)

Yea, I am an engineering major, so I understand mathematical concepts. No need to Barney "opportunity cost" for me.

Some things I humbly request you consider:

1) My wife and I grew up poor. We were very comfortable when I was an enlisted man, which pays dramatically less than officers. I am not going to miss that theoretical difference in pay that you outlined, and she won't either.

2) I am going into medicine to practice medicine, not to maximize my financial potential. I don't measure success on that scale.

3) You forget that my family will be receiving a paycheck on the first and fifteenth of every month while I am in medical school, including benefits. You also forget that I will be receiving that "80k" per year paycheck while in residency. Please consider that while you are living off loans and whatever charity you can still wring out of your parents.

4) While practicing, I will not be paying malpractice insurance.

5) I will be able to retire after only 12 more years of practice. I will be receiving a pension while practicing at a mom and pop family practice or group. I get to do what I want, which IS primary care, by the way, and possibly send that pension check off to my daughter, who should be in college by then. She won't have to be buried in debt either.


The pathway is not for everyone, and I am not trying to sell it to anyone. If you don't care about six figure debts, then more power to you. But it works for me.

But that is all pillage and fluff. Gotta finish my undergrad first, lol.

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[RomanTaylor]

+1

I completely agree with your overall theme, I think you might have fumbled the numbers and some might attack you for that. Ergo, I just wanted to interject without taking the credibility away from your posts.

Officers as attendings will make over 100k, obviously the specialty will dictate how much more. But the main point is that the military is extremely competitive for primary care specialties because of this. Now, if we consider deployments, GMO tours, and the salary of specialties (let's say surgeons), no one can say that the military is worth more or that one will pay less by joining the military. It's a multi-pronged process that most students fail to realize and the whole process is so convoluted, and absent of any transparency that students don't even bother to figure out the real details. Hence, why I'm writing this.

I was a Hospital Corpsman for six years and have worked under Medical Officers that entire time. I think I have a pretty good handle on how it works.

Some things I ask that you consider as well:

1) The military is actively phasing out GMOs (General Medical Officers) for PCPs.

2) Family Practice residencies are not competitive, all of the branches that have Medical Officers are hurting for them.

3) I am not going to mention how much money the Family Practice and Surgery M.Ds and D.Os cleared on my last deployment to Afghanistan, it made me nauseous, lol. Suffice it to say, they cleaned up.

4) Like everything in life, it's only as complicated as you allow it to be. Any process that is over 2 steps long is "convoluted" if you don't put in the work to seek the correct information and make smart decisions.

5) Medical Officers, upon graduation, receive bonus checks for this and that. A few mentioned to me that it makes up a large chuck of the shortfall between civilian and military pay.

 

[lazymd]

Undergrad- $50,000
Masters- $30,000
Med School- $250,000
___________________
Grand Total: $330,000
The look on my face right now: priceless

 

[Sophocles]

Undergrad: ~30k
Med: (assuming I get into a private school with lots of funds) ~120k
total ~150k before interest.

 

[WildEMDoc]

Undergrad: 0$
Grad School: 0$
Med School (at my current acceptance/choice estimated): $200,000
Med School (if I get into my state school in March): $60,000

 

[shawn829]

6 yrs of pharmacy school: 19,000
4 yrs at state school: 120,000
total~140k

 

[def1]

Undergrad: ~30k
Med: (assuming I get into a private school with lots of funds) ~120k
total ~150k before interest.

120k at a private school? are you including cost of living?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I was a Hospital Corpsman for six years and have worked under Medical Officers that entire time. I think I have a pretty good handle on how it works.

Some things I ask that you consider as well:

1) The military is actively phasing out GMOs (General Medical Officers) for PCPs.

2) Family Practice residencies are not competitive, all of the branches that have Medical Officers are hurting for them.

3) I am not going to mention how much money the Family Practice and Surgery M.Ds and D.Os cleared on my last deployment to Afghanistan, it made me nauseous, lol. Suffice it to say, they cleaned up.

4) Like everything in life, it's only as complicated as you allow it to be. Any process that is over 2 steps long is "convoluted" if you don't put in the work to seek the correct information and make smart decisions.

5) Medical Officers, upon graduation, receive bonus checks for this and that. A few mentioned to me that it makes up a large chuck of the shortfall between civilian and military pay.

Yeah people don't realize you get random bonuses all over the place. When I was looking into it I couldn't really keep track of the bonuses though (some only apply under certain conditions, some are only if you're in certain fields, etc etc) but they would definitely lessen the gap (probably to almost no gap at all for FM, Peds, etc).

Like you mentioned, HPSP is an extra sweet deal for those who already have prior military experience since you've already got years put in towards retirement.

 

[Sophocles]

120k at a private school? are you including cost of living?

Yeah, private schools tend to give out good financial aid packages and their average indebtedness seem pretty low, even compared to public schools. The schools that I am looking into are some state schools that have the average indebtedness at around 120k and three Ivy's which all have their average indebtedness way lower than 120k.

I think people just look at the tuition and fees without looking at how much they give in financial aid.

 

[Sophocles]

Yeah people don't realize you get random bonuses all over the place. When I was looking into it I couldn't really keep track of the bonuses though (some only apply under certain conditions, some are only if you're in certain fields, etc etc) but they would definitely lessen the gap (probably to almost no gap at all for FM, Peds, etc).

Like you mentioned, HPSP is an extra sweet deal for those who already have prior military experience since you've already got years put in towards retirement.

You mean HSCP which is only for the Navy.

 

[Digsbe]

Undergrad- $50,000
Masters- $30,000
Med School- $250,000
___________________
Grand Total: $330,000
The look on my face right now: priceless

I feel you on that. I'm a PharmD student strongly contemplating medicine, if money wasn't a factor I would go on and get both degrees.

Undergrad- $28,000
PharmD- $212,000
MD/DO~ $250,000 (assuming I don't work as a pharmacist in summers or part time during school and borrow all I need).

Total= $490,212

If I apply and get accepted for the 2014 entering class (meaning I would have completed 3 semesters of pharm school) I would have roughly $370,000

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

You mean HSCP which is only for the Navy.

No I don't...

I don't really know much about HSCP though. I just meant that if you already have years in, you'll be adding at least 4 more after medical school with HPSP which means you're probably significantly towards retirement anyway.

 

[Frazier]

Assuming I don't pull any grants/scholarships, I'll be looking at ~80k in loans (tuition + COL).

Lucky to have no undergrad debt.

 

[Yorick]

$0 for undergrad. I got accepted to my current school and an ivy league school and once i received the financial aid packages from both schools, near the same time, it took all of 5 seconds to make a decision.

 

[def1]

Yeah, private schools tend to give out good financial aid packages and their average indebtedness seem pretty low, even compared to public schools. The schools that I am looking into are some state schools that have the average indebtedness at around 120k and three Ivy's which all have their average indebtedness way lower than 120k.

I think people just look at the tuition and fees without looking at how much they give in financial aid.

Thats crazy. And here in Texas I thought it was the best it could ever be. But I'll be roughly in the same amount of debt as you going to private school.

But I do love Texas

 

[Sophocles]

No I don't...

I don't really know much about HSCP though. I just meant that if you already have years in, you'll be adding at least 4 more after medical school with HPSP which means you're probably significantly towards retirement anyway.

Oh, Ok. The HSCP allows you to become active duty enlisted while in medical school so his time in medical school counts for his retirement, which is what I thought you were alluding to; especially since he was writing about have full benefits for his family during medical school which only comes from HSCP-HPSP doesn't give you full benefits and you are an officer in the IRR throughout med school. Either way, it seems that he knows what he is doing and after medical school will only owe 10 years in order to retire. If you tack on 4 years of obligated service than his time for retirement after he meets his commitment is only 6 years. Not bad at all....

Thats crazy. And here in Texas I thought it was the best it could ever be. But I'll be roughly in the same amount of debt as you going to private school.

But I do love Texas

Yeah, Texas seems to have great programs and their tuition is awesome as well. Good luck to you.

 

[neurotroph]

UG: $0 or close to it. (Ivy League financial aid package)
Med: $0. MD/PhD hopeful.

 

[phikapdoctor]

Around 25k UG and around 175k pending on where/when I get accepted.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling

 

[dartmed]

Around 25k UG and around 175k pending on where/when I get accepted.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling

Since when did ivy leagues start giving out that great financial aid packages?

I remember the estimated cost at Upenn was 38,000 dollars tuition per year

 

[Sophocles]

Since when did ivy leagues start giving out that great financial aid packages?

I remember the estimated cost at Upenn was 38,000 dollars tuition per year

For undergrad? It's been a few years. If your parents make less than 60k then tuition and room/board is taken care of by the school.

For med schools, it's also been a few years but the upper limit on parental contribution is around 100k and they just pretty much make you take out 26k/year, while they give you scholarships for the rest. (I know of three Ivy's that do this, I can't speak for the rest, although I believe it is safe to assume that they have something similar)

 

[notbobtrustme]

Yeah, private schools tend to give out good financial aid packages and their average indebtedness seem pretty low, even compared to public schools. The schools that I am looking into are some state schools that have the average indebtedness at around 120k and three Ivy's which all have their average indebtedness way lower than 120k.

I think people just look at the tuition and fees without looking at how much they give in financial aid.

errr, scholarships are few and far between unless you go to a school with a spectacular endowment. Those who do get aid packages are stellar applicants and this process has no shortage of spectacular applicants. The reason average indebtness is low is because LOTS of medical students have their parents foot part or most of the bill. If you look at the distribution of debt, it's bimodal. Lots of students have little debt due to parents contributing a fair portion while the rest take out nearly the full COA.

 

[Sophocles]

errr, scholarships are few and far between unless you go to a school with a spectacular endowment. Those who do get aid packages are stellar applicants and this process has no shortage of spectacular applicants. The reason average indebtness is low is because LOTS of medical students have their parents foot part or most of the bill. If you look at the distribution of debt, it's bimodal. Lots of students have little debt due to parents contributing a fair portion while the rest take out nearly the full COA.

Yeah I've heard this argument before and I'm sure there must be some truth in it. Nevertheless, schools like Columbia, JHU, Harvard, etc. have most if not all need based financial aid. They don't have to use financial aid packages to entice applicants since they have a plethora of them; not to say they don't but it's not like they are pressured to. The private schools that I mentioned here and above all have huge endowments, which I believed I alluded to. Therefore, these scholarships are not far and few between if we concentrate on the schools that I was referring to. I wasn't making an over-generalization of all private schools.

The example I gave about only paying 26k/year is an example that is on the Harvard website. If your parents make less than 100k then you qualify, since it is need based not merit based; I also believe it is a fair assumption that we can say they will not run out of funds by helping these students out that have little expected parental contribution.

 

[Yorick]

Since when did ivy leagues start giving out that great financial aid packages?

I remember the estimated cost at Upenn was 38,000 dollars tuition per year

Truthfully, it's Harvard, Yale and Princeton that give out the great financial aid packages. The other ivy league schools give decent-pretty good financial aid but not nearly as much as HYP. Their endowments are greater than $15 billion while all the other ivy leagues are less than $9 billion.

 

[Sophocles]

Truthfully, it's Harvard, Yale and Princeton that give out the great financial aid packages. The other ivy league schools give decent-pretty good financial aid but not nearly as much as HYP. Their endowments are greater than $15 billion while all the other ivy leagues are less than $9 billion.

edit: I just realized that you were talking about undergrad since you brought up Princeton. It's a fact that ALL of the Ivy's will give you a full ride with room/board if you get accepted and your parents make less than 60k. That shouldn't be in question whatsoever and it is easily verifiable. I also know from personal experience since I go to one of these schools.


As far as medical schools, talk to the kids or financial aid departments at Cornell and Columbia and ask about their need based financial aid packages. Also look at JHU and UPenn.

These are just a few examples obviously. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Plue00]

Right after I got my acceptance to an ivy league.

My dad: so how u gonna pay for that?
Me: you are.
dad: [laughs] i earn less than the tuition that i would have to pay.

state school it is!

Wait, wouldn't you go for free then? Ivy's give great financial aid, and if your dad made less than the tuition, you would be given all grants/scholarships...

 

[dartmed]

Wait, wouldn't you go for free then? Ivy's give great financial aid, and if your dad made less than the tuition, you would be given all grants/scholarships...

Not when I was applying. I remember my guidance counselor said that there were five schools that offered that - HYP + Stanford + MIT I think

I remember Upenn wouldn't even give our decision until we submitted a financial aid form.

I think now ivies are offering this. As well as Vanderbilt (couple friends gotten the aid) and Swarthmore as well

I would have to do more digging on what the figure was. I think the total estimated cost was 55,000 and my dad made 52,000

 

[BabyDoc86]

I am hoping to keep my med school debt <$300k. I had a full ride to undergrad and I worked for my graduate school so they paid my tuition for my Master's. Just looking at those numbers makes me physically ill.

 

[Sophocles]

Not when I was applying. I remember my guidance counselor said that there were five schools that offered that - HYP + Stanford + MIT I think

I remember Upenn wouldn't even give our decision until we submitted a financial aid form.

I think now ivies are offering this. As well as Vanderbilt (couple friends gotten the aid) and Swarthmore as well

I would have to do more digging on what the figure was. I think the total estimated cost was 55,000 and my dad made 52,000

That sucks.. Do you feel that it worked out for you in the end and that it was better for you to go to a different school? Also, I don't know if you wrote it, but how much debt will you be in with your current school?

**I assumed you didn't go to the school, but I could be wrong.

 

[Praefectus]

I'm leaving undergrad with $0 of debt, so I've got a clean slate.

 

[dartmed]

That sucks.. Do you feel that it worked out for you in the end and that it was better for you to go to a different school? Also, I don't know if you wrote it, but how much debt will you be in with your current school?

**I assumed you didn't go to the school, but I could be wrong.

Thank god I didn't. It worked out really well. I am graduating with 0 dollars of debt. In fact, because I went to a state school, I am able to spend my senior year at Harvard/UN/Another non profit pursuing a fellowship in health and human rights. So I didn't lose much.

 

[Gauss44]

This is something that I have been thinking about lately...how much debt are you guys graduating with?

A friend - 300,000 (BU)
Another - 450,000 (Tufts)

I need to think about this as we are going to compounded with interest starting day 1 of med school.

This raises 2 questions:

1. Why weren't they denied loans for debt to income ratio problems? Was there a cosigner or something?

2. Isn't there a limit on how much you can borrow?

 

[Sophocles]

This raises 2 questions:

1. Why weren't they denied loans for debt to income ratio problems? Was there a cosigner or something?

2. Isn't there a limit on how much you can borrow?

From my understanding, government loans have limits. There are two main loans that students use and I think the limit is something in the mid 200k. After that people can take personal loans but I think the interest on those are crazy. Sorry to be a bit ambiguous, I'm drawing a blank and don't feel like searching.

 

[Digsbe]

This raises 2 questions:

1. Why weren't they denied loans for debt to income ratio problems? Was there a cosigner or something?

2. Isn't there a limit on how much you can borrow?

I believe for some healthcare related programs the Stafford Loan program will allow up to roughly $240,000 to be borrowed. More loans can be taken out based on personal credit called Grad Plus loans. To my knowledge they don't have a cap, but you cannot borrow more than your COA in any given financial aid year.

 

[CsHead]

1. Why weren't they denied loans for debt to income ratio problems?

I believe the DTI ratio is not an issue with the federal loans... Can you see the problem here...

I realistically doubt they would be denied a private education loan given the type of professional school.

 

[are we ther yet]

Question from a Canadian. Does interest start from day 1 on your loans? And what rates would a bank give you a 200k student loan at?

 

[notbobtrustme]

Question from a Canadian. Does interest start from day 1 on your loans? And what rates would a bank give you a 200k student loan at?

Interest starts day 1 from banks and the government. Bank interest rates may be lower, but they are tied to indices and when they rise, so do your student loan rates. Bank loans are also have fewer perks such as income-based repayment and loan forgiveness.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Yeah I've heard this argument before and I'm sure there must be some truth in it. Nevertheless, schools like Columbia, JHU, Harvard, etc. have most if not all need based financial aid. They don't have to use financial aid packages to entice applicants since they have a plethora of them; not to say they don't but it's not like they are pressured to. The private schools that I mentioned here and above all have huge endowments, which I believed I alluded to. Therefore, these scholarships are not far and few between if we concentrate on the schools that I was referring to. I wasn't making an over-generalization of all private schools.

The example I gave about only paying 26k/year is an example that is on the Harvard website. If your parents make less than 100k then you qualify, since it is need based not merit based; I also believe it is a fair assumption that we can say they will not run out of funds by helping these students out that have little expected parental contribution.

If your plan on avoiding medical school debt is to attend Columbia/JHU/Harvard/Yale, you'll do a great job because you'll probably never get into medical school. If you are going to be realistic about it, count on between 150k - 250k.

 

[imcanadaian]

anyone seen UIC's OOS tuition rates? it's crazy! I was surprised to actually meet OOS students at my interview but it still boggles my mind how anyone would be able to pay for that. 70K for tuition alone...plus the cost of living in Chicago..that's easily 350K+ of debt by the end!!

 

[Sophocles]

If your plan on avoiding medical school debt is to attend Columbia/JHU/Harvard/Yale, you'll do a great job because you'll probably never get into medical school. If you are going to be realistic about it, count on between 150k - 250k.

I think I understand what you're saying, but it came out extremely rude. I think you should include a little more tact in your rhetoric.

My point wasn't about how to avoid the debt of medical school. Rather, that there are private schools that give great financial aid packages; making them a feasible option for those who would like to attend one but are afraid of the high tuition rates.

 

[Mehd School]

About $40k from undergrad and a conservatively estimated 200 large for med school.

Thanks for ruining my morning.

 

[Sophocles]

About $40k from undergrad and a conservatively estimated 200 large for med school.

Thanks for ruining my morning.

hahahahahah... hilarious...

 

[mzarrowsmith]

This is something that I have been thinking about lately...how much debt are you guys graduating with?

A friend - 300,000 (BU)
Another - 450,000 (Tufts)

I need to think about this as we are going to compounded with interest starting day 1 of med school.

If you're interested in data, check out the AAMC's "Matriculating Student Questionnaire." It has national-level data for medical school matriculants. Might be more interesting than random anecdotes about people's friends.

~60% of incoming med students have zero debt from undergrad.

 

[kfre2435]

Zero debt after undergrad. My small liberal arts school practically paid for me to go there with a fellowship. It mad no sense to go anywhere else, and I have not regretted it in the least.

 

[Spinach Dip]

~60% of incoming med students have zero debt from undergrad.

I'd have zero also... if my parents were doctors themselves.

 

[dfib slim]

.

 

[notbobtrustme]

If you're interested in data, check out the AAMC's "Matriculating Student Questionnaire." It has national-level data for medical school matriculants. Might be more interesting than random anecdotes about people's friends.

~60% of incoming med students have zero debt from undergrad.

That's because the median income of medical student families is >100k. The distribution is bimodal, not a normal distribution.