How much did you make in 2024?

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How much did you make in 2024?

  • Under 150K

    Votes: 8 16.7%
  • 150K-200K

    Votes: 8 16.7%
  • 250K - 300K

    Votes: 12 25.0%
  • 300K - 350K

    Votes: 9 18.8%
  • Over 350K

    Votes: 11 22.9%

  • Total voters
    48
  • This poll will close: .

desertpod8

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Jan 7, 2025
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Since Covid, it seems like pay has gone up for most hospital podiatrists. As a PP associate in a percentage based pay, I’ve noticed we’ve been busier and my take home pay has gone up 50% to almost 200K for 2024. Recently a friend hired at the VA is starting at 225K, and Kaiser surgical at 285K. I hope those days of podiatrist making under 120K are gone, and think a poll would be helpful for those seeking jobs.

Edit- I realized I missed the 200-250 bracket; round up or down 😅
 
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"Make" and take home are two very different things in PP owner/partner 🙂

I suppose its far diff gross/net for high tax bracket w2 podiatrists also.

I'd also like to know how ppl vote and know their 2024 income in mid January (unless straight salary??)... PP own/partner sure won't, and a lot of bonuses also need to be calced after year end. As owner, I won't know for at least a few months; biz filing deadline is mid March... haven't even received most of my w2s from insurances yet.

...I also think SDN should be higher than the average (care a bit more about podiatry and their career than the avg DPM does to be spending time reading /learning /interacting here). The people who just matched a low or mid residency, work a VA job or a PP associate or supergroup type job decade after decade, do the minimum, pay the minimums to not get anywhere on student loans, and go home to check out from work generally aren't on SDN much/any. They simply aren't that interested. The folks who are here are typically trying to network and learn to find the good residency, a better job, ways to start up or tune up their practice, etc... so that's cool.👍
 
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Less than half a year working as an attending but my base pay is 265k annually with a 10k performance bonus, obviously no RVU bonus last year. Hoping for RVU bonus but not sure if I will reach it this year. Seeing about 10-14 patients a day with 1 case per week on average right now. Goal is to get up to 20 patients a day with 2-3 cases a week by August this year. I also plan to talk to admin about raising my base pay and RVU bonus amount if my volume continues to rise as it has been at my 1 year mark.
 
Less than half a year working as an attending but my base pay is 265k annually with a 10k performance bonus, obviously no RVU bonus last year. Hoping for RVU bonus but not sure if I will reach it this year. Seeing about 10-14 patients a day with 1 case per week on average right now.
This would never happen in PP working for a mustache.

12 patients per day x $125/avg patient charge x 250 work days = $375k

Doesnt leave much meat for a mustache to eat.
 
This would never happen in PP working for a mustache.

12 patients per day x $125/avg patient charge x 250 work days = $375k

Doesnt leave much meat for a mustache to eat.
How realistic is it to collect $125 a patient? Based off most RVU, hospital employed podiatrist are earning less than $125 a patient if the wRVU for a level 3 new patient is less than 2.
 
How is that possible for wound patients?
11042 - wrvu = 1.01 = $45
11043 - wrvu = 2.70 = $121.5

Assuming $45 a RVU

ftt, bone debridement, level 4-5 visits for sending them to hospitals, supposed to also do a level 3 about once a month to reasses overall state while doing debridement, casts, dme
 
How is that possible for wound patients?
11042 - wrvu = 1.01 = $45
11043 - wrvu = 2.70 = $121.5

Assuming $45 a RVU
We're not talking about the same things here. The hospital podiatrist simply gets paid RVUs converted to dollars ie. there is no component of their payment that takes into account which insurance the patient had, negotiated fee schedules, whether the patient paid, overhead etc. They simply get paid. If they see 20 99213s a day they get 20 x 1.3 x their $RVU rate. A $50 RVU rate on this example would be $1300 a day of direct pay. A private practice doctor doing the exact same clinic would multiply 20 x the actual collected amount per visit and then hope to keep 50% of the total value. The reason the hospital is able to pay these rates is that the facility is getting enormous money compared to what individual doctors are able to receive. This is a subject of interest in CMS/MedPAC called "site of service neutrality" and the American Hospital Association (AHA) is fighting to keep hospital outpatient clinics paid on OPPS instead of the PFS. Subject of amusement to me - some of the hospital pods posting here essentially try to get away from doing procedures that pay less than the RVUs of a 99213. ie. all the injection codes, 17110, 11750, etc - require work, but reimburse less than refilling meloxicam. Some of these procedures would have hospital fee schedules prices that dwarf what the hospital would have gotten for a 99213 from insurance ie. the hospitals incentives and the physicians do not necessarily line up.

For the private practice doctor - they are saying your average reimbursement need to be $X ie. $130 or whatever.

Your reimbursement here though is going to reflect.
1. Your fee schedules ie. sub-Medicare, Medicare, positive over Medicare.
2. The aggressiveness of your coding
3. And the pathology and your comfort with treating it.

There's exceptions to this, but essentially unless you are billing a lot of 11043/11044 - your visits need to have multiple things being charged for the visits to hit higher dollars amount ie. procedures and office visits and DME or wound care supplies or whatever.

Less complicated example - Your plantar fasciitis injection also wants to talk about nail fungus? As a student or resident you are thinking "GTFO". As an attending you may be thinking 20550 / 99213-4, 25. That visit to a PP attending is potentially worth $140-200+ depending on insurance fee schedule.

Another classic example is people looking for office visits on nail/callus Q789-patients. The patient gets their Q9 11056, but says their right foot feels more swollen and painful the last few days. They very possibly are getting an x-ray/Charcot work-up and an office visit is being charged.

Fee schedules matter though. I found out yesterday that a major employer in my town switched all if employees from Insurance"B" to Insurance"A", hint. A patient came in wanting nail surgery. Had they seen me the year before under "B" I would have been paid $490 for the visit. Instead - I'm going to be paid $300 for the visit. You could say - that's real money, but our ability to remain in business is reflected in our ability to collect real dollar amounts over Medicare from patients. In this example I'm actually billing 99203 + 11750x 2 and I did a bilateral border on each hallux. The extra payment that I used to receive for this service would have covered the wages of an MA for an entire day. I need those good visits to balance out low reimbursing diabetic nail and post-op visits where people keep trying to come back over and over to complain about swelling. I could have done the 2nd nail at a second visit and increased the reimbursement on that procedure, but then I'm increasing the number of visit spots for an insurance that doesn't pay anything.

Final thing - the E&M changes probably were the gift that keeps on giving and the only good thing to really happen over the last few years. There are a lot of 4s waiting out there to be found that would have jokingly required pretending to use a stethoscope a few years ago. Patient's laundry lists of comorbidities are a lot more tolerable on 4 reimbursement than on 3.
 
Whoa hold up... things are starting to get real spicy now

Calculating Zach Galifianakis GIF by filmeditor
 
Maybe @Feli is right, we're all a bunch of overachievers and workaholics, and that skews the poll data.

But between this thread and the other one about RVUs, it's hard to say that we have not discredited ourselves. @diabeticfootdr has been right all along.
 
Subject of amusement to me - some of the hospital pods posting here essentially try to get away from doing procedures that pay less than the RVUs of a 99213. ie. all the injection codes, 17110, 11750, etc - require work, but reimburse less than refilling meloxicam. Some of these procedures would have hospital fee schedules prices that dwarf what the hospital would have gotten for a 99213 from insurance ie. the hospitals incentives and the physicians do not necessarily line up.
Absolutely. I can spend 10 minutes discussing stretching, icing, shoe wear recommendations, etc, etc for plantar fasciitis and collect a 99203 or 1.6RVU.

But if they want an injection I take a pay cut down to 0.75RVU as billing says P fasciitis visit includes an injection. Cant bill 99203/13 with 20550.

I tried billing time "15 minutes, outside time spent performing injection, performing chart review, documenting, and direct patient discussion about preventative plantar fasciitis care" and tried to sneak in a lowely 99202. Nope. Billing clipped that off and billed 20550 only.

Tried to attach E&M to ankle equinus as I spend time educating patient on ankle equinus being the root cause of their P fasciitis. Nope. they took off the E&M and I got 20550 only.

It sucks. Outside wounds, I want nothing to do with any procedure in my office including ingrown nail procedures (99203 still pays better than a matrixectomy).

Wounds always have something else going on. They are so unhealthy an office visit is almost guarenteed and its commonly a level 4.
 
Maybe @Feli is right, we're all a bunch of overachievers and workaholics, and that skews the poll data.

But between this thread and the other one about RVUs, it's hard to say that we have not discredited ourselves. @diabeticfootdr has been right all along.
The polling represents 5 years telling people they HAVE to be hospital/facility employed. The forum changed people's futures and lives for the better, but now we're supposed to look at people's improved lives and say we were wrong to begin with.

Everyone I know's life got better the second they were no longer dependent on being employed by a podiatrist.

I'm taking like a 3% revenue cut next year because Medicare is cutting our fee schedules. Is anyone here who is facility employed bemoaning how next year will be worse? Nope because facilities took a 2% pay increase.

The ultimately icing on the cake is that Dr. Rodgers actually made a great video that I didn't see until I was at the end of 3rd year saying you had to get a hospital job and that you had to goad the hospital "make" the job for you if you if it didn't exist.
 
Why won’t they let you bill e&m plus procedure using appropriate modifier?
 
Why won’t they let you bill e&m plus procedure using appropriate modifier?
They may be super strict on 25 modifier ie. the E&M of the procedure is built into the procedure itself. The other possibility is that they are simply screwing him because its easy or convenient.

Consider the following. In PP - we simply get paid collections ie. a common insurance says a 99203 is worth $110 and an injection is worth like $90. Straight Medicare for that is like $105 and $53 or something.

I shared these examples previously - but a poster on here worked for a hospital with "Transparent" rates online. Essentially hospitals are supposed to be posting what they receive from each major insurance contract for a set group of codes. The guy in question worked for a hospital that received $900ish for a 11750 and a bit over $1000 for a 20550.

The hospital doctor gets paid in RVUs converted to dollars, but the hospital pays for the service out of actual collected income. If they've already received $1000 for the injection they may simply think - cool - we'll pay this guy 0.75 RVUs x $50 and pocket the difference. They could add the E&M and maybe it picks them up another $200 or something, but maybe it leads to more fighting with BCBS or more quality reviews or more patient complaints or something.

The online data I'm seeing says OPPS for CMS pays a bit over $200 to on-campus HOPD for an office visit. However, for quite a few procedures they pay dramatically higher. My presumption is the hospital would love to be given the opportunity to pick what they are going to bill for. Anyway, more mismatched incentives.
 
Why won’t they let you bill e&m plus procedure using appropriate modifier?
In private practice, insurance will often pay for both E&M and procedure with a 25 modifier, as long as the E&M is a separate problem to the procedure code for new patients. We get a lot of denials for follow up visits when billing E&M and procedure even when it’s a separate issue. Sometimes I debate if I should just bill office visit (99213 $75) for f/u plantar fasciitis instead of injection (20551 $50) after explaining and giving them injection 🤷
 
...saying you had to get a hospital job and that you had to goad the hospital "make" the job for you if you if it didn't exist.
Yes. This is the trend:
New grads "creating" jobs with rural and CAH facilities. Sometimes it's at IHS or VAs that don't have a DPM yet also.

However, there is a definite downside to this: the job was not there for a reason. The area is too small! There's not enough work in places with 2k, 3k, 5k, even 10k (depending on what is around them and if other pods/ortho nearby). Even if there is enough work, podiatry was likely the last hired (and least needed), and they'd be the first to go in any budget crunch.

I've received more PM and txt from new grads last year than ever before along the lines of "hi, need to switch jobs... not enough work for me out here... hospital is asking questions, clinic is still way too slow." These are well trained guys... the ones where were giddy about their salary + bonus just a year earlier. I typically tell them any jobs I've heard of and suggest marketing f2f with PCPs and ER asap, do nail care to fill the appointments, making clinic f/u short to fill the schedule...and they usually tell me they have done all those. 🙁

New Grads: if you're at these small / tiny hospital jobs you created, you NEED to get fairly busy asap. Hospitals want surgery, MRIs, PT refers, admits. Money always matters. It's essential to shake hands and bring gifts to all area PCPs (many will be midlevels in boonies). Talk to their schedule/referral staff. Ditto for ER: tell them what you can do, you're happy to help, give your number. ER will probably have a lot of midlevel too; get to know them if you want a secure job and a full clinic. Hospitalists also.... not fun work, but it generates $$$. Go to every medical staff meeting and lunch and CME that you reasonably can; have the hospital do a catered meet-n-greet open house for your clinic if they will.

I'm sorry to say, but depending on just giving it time and the employer rural/CAH hospital doing a youtube or newspaper or billboard blast is not nearly as effective. Any media/mass marketing is short-lived. It will get you a few new patients shortly after the mailing is sent or the ads run, but the hospital does NOT want to spend that money + resources every year. True, it's technically the hospital's job to market you, but YOU will be the one without a job if you can't be fairly profitable. It is much different at VA/IHS, but at any for-profit system, the hospital bean counters ARE tracking you. You need to drop your ego and make these jobs work - at least until you get your loans paid off and ABFAS cert... and you have other options. The DOCS AROUND YOU can get patients into your clinic MUCH better and faster and more consistently than some radio or newspaper ad. Do not be shy. Market like your job depends on it. In many cases, it will. Sad but true.

...In the days I finished residency, well-trained pods were "creating" these hospital jobs in cities (often in/near their residency system)... and mainly outskirts suburbs hospitals. Now, we are going waaaay out there to find untapped hospitals to make these gigs at, and it's fairly hard to make such small town and catch areas work out as a specialist. It can be done, but it's not automatic or to be taken lightly. Podiatry is saturated AF that we've gone out to these podunk places, and they are unfortunately not solid ground unless you can make the pod clinic/service busy and profitable.
 
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The coder secretly works for the insurance companies… the deep state of healthcare.
 
Less than half a year working as an attending but my base pay is 265k annually with a 10k performance bonus, obviously no RVU bonus last year. Hoping for RVU bonus but not sure if I will reach it this year. Seeing about 10-14 patients a day with 1 case per week on average right now. Goal is to get up to 20 patients a day with 2-3 cases a week by August this year. I also plan to talk to admin about raising my base pay and RVU bonus amount if my volume continues to rise as it has been at my 1 year mark.
Honestly you got like one or two times to do this. I would wait closer to 2 years and you are not incrementally improving your volume but significantly increasing it. Then you show a significant increase and say there's room for more. You are not going to be able to go back to the well every year for stuff like this.
 
Honestly you got like one or two times to do this. I would wait closer to 2 years and you are not incrementally improving your volume but significantly increasing it. Then you show a significant increase and say there's room for more. You are not going to be able to go back to the well every year for stuff like this.
Good point, had not thought of that. If I can get up to about 350k eventually working relatively normal hours I’d be happy there for sure. Right now I only work about 30-35 hours per week since my caseload is light and one day a week is half day clinic.

I’ve thought about trying to do something extra on Saturday such as a wound clinic or nursing homes but seems like the area I’m in is already tapped out for this type of work (shocker).
 
As always in podiatry - the answer is not enough
 
Would it be possible to include 500k+ as well?
Yes, yes... and do change the title to "how much did you WANT to make in 2024." That'll work swimmingly.

Guys, we know the DPM avg incomes really are... look at the ACFAS, APMA studies.
Look at MGMA data (for non-govt hospital FTE pods, which is up to maybe about 10% of DPMs now).

At the end of the day, what matters to each DPM is what that DPM themself makes... and if they budget well and have some semblance of work/life/health balance. It really does me no good to know what Mr New PP Associate or Mr Hospital 90hr/wk or Mr Wound Wizard or Mr PP-with-9-associates or Mr Nursing Home Fraud makes (or says they make). I'm not them. 🙂
 
The better question is - how much did you save 🙂
140k. 70k towards retirement. 70k towards the house mortgage on top of regular house loan payments. Should be debt free next year. Feel like I am peaking in my career. Hopefully upward trajectory in networth continues
 
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