How Much Do Asian Dentists Make?

[Bds dds]

Are smile Delhi graduates DDS?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Shunwei]

Nope not corporate just a good group practice with a couple of GPs and an oral surgeon together full time. i do everything except for FBI 3rds and implants at the moment and refer the former to the oral surgeon. the oral surgeon can place implants but his comfort zone is wizzies so i will be doing my own implants soon.

I am not special just did my research, networked a bit, and decided on what I felt was the best for myself. I am not bashing CA dentists just trying to let people know that the market there is very, very hard. There are great places to practice elsewhere in the country to make a great living even as a new grad.

 

[periopocket]

Shunwei! Very impressive! So you say your practicing in Texas? So in the future GP's will be able to place their own implants?

 

[gryffindor]

I didn't miss your point. But are you sure that you can find 6-7 of these jobs within an acceptable travel radius and be sure that you can be kept busy as well or get paid well? You don't need to convince me, I have no stake in this debate. All I know is that I spoke to quite a few CA GPs and specialists and very few are satisfied with their situation. If I were a specialist, I sure would be tired of running around like that, but that's just me.

The traveling orthodontist gig is awful, especially for the patient. The only way it works is if you truly just rent the space from the GP and the orthodontist runs a completely separate business. Otherwise, if the patients "belong" to the GP, the orthodontist has no stake in making sure they get good treatment. I refer "harder" cases out of the GP office to the "real orthodontist office" all the time. I know if I try to treat them within the confines of the GP office, the patient will not get the correct treatment because I am limited in staff and supplies with what I can do. Luckily this office doesn't care, but for the ortho who gets a demanding GP on their case to start everything that comes in, the patient is going to get a less than optimal result. My experience in working these kinds of jobs was that the assistants, if they come from the GP side, roll their eyes when assigned to work ortho. Some want to help but they don't know all the supplies and instruments because they don't use them everyday. So now you have to train them and will be wasting time with each patient and not running an efficient practice. Even if you do have dedicated ortho assistants, you are not their boss. The office manager of the GP office or the GP is their boss. If you tell them to organize the instruments like this for efficiency or stop trimming the retainer models so short, they have no incentive to listen to you making your job miserable. Now you have to deal with these staff issues 8x a month in 8 different offices with 8 different staffs, and you will start hating this way of practicing.

If a problem arises on a day you are not there, the GP staff will call you because many times the GPs themselves are unsure of how to handle ortho emergencies. Sometimes the GP will do something that gets the patient out of pain, but sets your ortho treatment plan back 3 months. I left one job where the patients, a few hundred cases, were all transferred to the following doctor. I have had 2 patients chase me trying to find out where I went because in their mind, they feel I left them. I don't want them to feel that way, but from the patient's point of view, they chose to start treatment because they liked the orthodontist and not because they were already in the GP practice. When the GP practice tried to do some external marketing to bring in ortho patients, I had some come in for a consult and then not start because it was obvious that ortho was being run as an afterthought inside a GP practice. The front desk and assistants were not all speaking the same "ortho" language and to the astute patient, it is obvious. These are not ways to build good will in an office.

I have a third office where I have not started a new patient in over a year, but I still have to go finish the ones I did start. This is tough going in just to see 1 patient because they can't all come the same day, or getting yelled at by the GP staff when you do come in because they don't want to allocate a chair to you anymore even though you need to finish the patient. Not to mention that this is unprofitable for me since they are all done paying. Again, the only loser in all of this is the patient.

 

[Shunwei]

Shunwei! Very impressive! So you say your practicing in Texas? So in the future GP's will be able to place their own implants?

GPs have always been allowed to place their own implants, provided they receive their training in either a GPR or a CE course. I elected to not do a GPR (my opinions is in another thread, so I won't rehash them here) so I will be taking an implant course soon. I will test my waters with easy cases first and then gradually expand out. This skill is not only useful for teeth replacement, but also for implant-supported and assisted dentures, which are gaining in popularity and utility.

In my opinion, I think getting into a price war in which you undercut your competitors is a very risky manoever and in the long-term detrimental. By doing so, you cheapen the value of your services and will have to rely on volume work to obtain the same revenue, which in turn risk lowering the quality of the work. Also, another person may decide to lower their prices even more, putting you on the spot: What are you going to do then, lower your prices even more or watch as your price-conscious patients leave you for another provider? And price wars can also make you a persona non grata to your local colleagues because you are putting them on the spot as well.

Aside from location, which I think is paramount for success as a dentist, there are also several things that I think a GP should have to have good success. First of all, be versatile--be able to do as many things as you can and refer only the bare minimal to specialists. Skills such as being able to do surgical extractions efficiently and doing endos (particularly molars) well are of particular value. 60-70% of patients who present to the GP office do so under pain of some kind, very often due to broken teeth or teeth requiring RCT. By being able to take pts out of pain either through extraction or RCT, you gain their trust and also obtain a gateway where you can have them accept more of your proposed tx; for example, a pt who elects RCT will also very likely obtain a crown once you explain to them of the importance of the coronal seal, and someone who is missing a tooth will often listen to ways to replace them. Secondly, always show that you care about your patients. For my own patients, the day after extractions or RCTs I often call them myself and ask them how they are feeling--I can't tell you how many patients tell me they are impressed by having a dentist call them personally to follow up with them. In addition, my strategy for gaining an edge on my competition is that instead of price wars, I am willing to offer financing deals (aside from the usual CareCredit stuff) to patients who have good credit or have established a history with me, since not too many people have thousands of dollars in disposable income ready in hand. So if a patient needs a set of dentures for $3000, I would ask for a $1000 down at the initial impressions appt, get another $1000 at the delivery appt a month later, and then allow the pt to pay off the remaining $1000 in 2-3 months. There is an inherent risk in this but with good judgment and good credit history this can be minimized and wielded as a powerful tool. And finally, I always focus on maximizing the procedures I can do in each appt rather than the # of patients. I always aim to do as much as possible as I have my coordinator present tx so that I can do a combination of multiple root canals, crowns, and operative at any one time. For instance, I just finished a case where I spent 2 1/2 hours doing #18 and #30 RCT/Bu/Crown, along with 4 direct restorations for a total of 4k for the morning. Having one such appt in the morning and one in the afternoon and you can see how you can maximize your output, and allows your patients to get everything done in one day.

In short, I definitely believe in tactics to distinguish oneself from your competitors, but pricing (at least those done systematically) is not the preferred tactic. Focus on quality, patient service, and versatility, and along with the right location, I think a GP should be able to flourish quite nicely.

 

[charlestweed]

Tweed, whether the GP is paying the specialist a per diem is not the point of contentiion. The chair will be there, sure, but the GP has to allot the chair time, possibly assistants and supplies, on the days the specialist is here, in addition to providing the administrative support and accepting the liability risk of having the specialist in the house. All of this is time, space, and labor that should be factored into consideration. What would, for example, the GP get from this time/space in place of the specialist, I.e. opportunity cost? I am glad that your sister is doing well; I am just offering a different view on the issue and relating some things I have seen myself.

With only 4-8 patients a day (typical number for many 1-owner GP practices in CA), the GP doesn’t really need to work the full 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. There should be plenty of empty time slots. A lot of time, the F/T assistant sits around doing nothing. Bringing in the specialists actually helps keep the F/T assistants busy.

Since most specialty procedures (implants, wisdom teeth extractions, RCT) are more profitable than doing fillings and cleaning, most GPs don’t mind loosing their chair time to their in-house specialists. The goal is to save as many patients for the specialists as possible.

 

[Daurang]

GPs have always been allowed to place their own implants, provided they receive their training in either a GPR or a CE course. I elected to not do a GPR (my opinions is in another thread, so I won't rehash them here) so I will be taking an implant course soon. I will test my waters with easy cases first and then gradually expand out. This skill is not only useful for teeth replacement, but also for implant-supported and assisted dentures, which are gaining in popularity and utility.

In my opinion, I think getting into a price war in which you undercut your competitors is a very risky manoever and in the long-term detrimental. By doing so, you cheapen the value of your services and will have to rely on volume work to obtain the same revenue, which in turn risk lowering the quality of the work. Also, another person may decide to lower their prices even more, putting you on the spot: What are you going to do then, lower your prices even more or watch as your price-conscious patients leave you for another provider? And price wars can also make you a persona non grata to your local colleagues because you are putting them on the spot as well.

In short, I definitely believe in tactics to distinguish oneself from your competitors, but pricing (at least those done systematically) is not the preferred tactic. Focus on quality, patient service, and versatility, and along with the right location, I think a GP should be able to flourish quite nicely.

In California, dentists are a dime a dozen so patients simply don't care and don't value them. Your typical traditional logic don't matter in saturated enclaves like OC or LA. Like I said before, they would rather spend a couple hundred $$$ on scratch tickets or football gambling or donating to the casino's eletric bill than paying for their copay or the true market value of dentistry. PRICE and FREEBIES are the only determining factor for virtually all of them. Charge them only 1/2 normal price and they'll walk right next door, where someone else will gladly treat them nicer with a cheaper price. Sorry they want it for only 1/3 the price. There are dentists doing composites for $20, SCRP for $200, rct for $100, implant for $999, crown for $200. BTW, there is also free patient pickup and delivery service plus monetary kickback for the driver. In the old days when Dentical was more generous, new patients get whole sets of pots and pans and whole box of cup-o-noodle.

 

[Shunwei]

In California, dentists are a dime a dozen so patients simply don't care and don't value them. Your typical traditional logic don't matter in saturated enclaves like OC or LA. Like I said before, they would rather spend a couple hundred $$$ on scratch tickets or football gambling or donating to the casino's eletric bill than paying for their copay or the true market value of dentistry. PRICE and FREEBIES are the only determining factor for virtually all of them. Charge them only 1/2 normal price and they'll walk right next door, where someone else will gladly treat them nicer with a cheaper price. Sorry they want it for only 1/3 the price. There are dentists doing composites for $20, SCRP for $200, rct for $100, implant for $999, crown for $200. BTW, there is also free patient pickup and delivery service plus monetary kickback for the driver. In the old days when Dentical was more generous, new patients get whole sets of pots and pans and whole box of cup-o-noodle.

Exactly, that's why location is key, like What we said in the beginning.. Traditional supply-demand economics trumps all. I hear implants are getting done at Newport for $750.

 

[Daurang]

Exactly, that's why location is key, like What we said in the beginning.. Traditional supply-demand economics trumps all. I hear implants are getting done at Newport for $750.

Wow where is this at ? I need to fly to Cali for this $750 implant, and spend the money saved on body sushi in Beverly Hills. LOL!!!

 

[nw88]

$34.50

34.50 is TOOO MUCH

 

[Shunwei]

Wow where is this at ? I need to fly to Cali for this $750 implant, and spend the money saved on body sushi in Beverly Hills. LOL!!!

I for sure heard it on the radio even mid last year when I was in UCLA. I think it's like $750 implant placement + $750 for the restoration crown.

 

[enajmu]

Are there ANY successful dentists in Los angeles? I dont wanna work my *** off making the same $$$ as someone else in texas working half the time.

 

[Pleonasm]

Exactly, that's why location is key, like What we said in the beginning.. Traditional supply-demand economics trumps all. I hear implants are getting done at Newport for $750.

Wow!! $750 per implant. You Cali guys must be getting rich. lol!!!

This is an east coast ad:

Dental Implants $499
Grand Opening Specials!
ZOOM! Whitening, Invisalign & more
218-16 Hillside Avenue

 

[gryffindor]

Are there ANY successful dentists in Los angeles? I dont wanna work my *** off making the same $$$ as someone else in texas working half the time.

Then move to Texas. There is life outside of California. Hard to believe, I know. The beach sucks if you don't have any money to enjoy it.

 

[Shunwei]

Then move to Texas. There is life outside of California. Hard to believe, I know. The beach sucks if you don't have any money to enjoy it.

The reverse is also true though: If you do have money then you can enjoy the beaches. I just took a 10 day vacation down at Cancun last month with my GF. It was great and I plan on doing it again in August.

 

[Ferneezy]

Are there ANY successful dentists in Los angeles? I dont wanna work my *** off making the same $$$ as someone else in texas working half the time.

you're gonna have a bad time.

please post in the future so everyone can learn from your mistakes.

 

[periopocket]

Shunwei - how long are these cc classes for implants? Also, what do you think about sedation dentistry?

 

[Shunwei]

Shunwei - how long are these cc classes for implants? Also, what do you think about sedation dentistry?

The owner dentist is also financing me to go to an oral sedation course next month. With that we can prescribe a variety of benzos for oral sedation, although I have been able to prescribe Halcion already to good effect. I personally find these oral sedatives to be of great value to dentophobic patients or patients needing full mouth extractions. For these patients, I have them bring the pills and crush one 15 minutes before the procedure and place it sublingually for rapid absorption. They are then sleepy for 2-3 hours and much easier to work with. I have also considered IV sedation but I feel the cons outweigh the pros for a GP. With IV, there is more liability involved and the training is much longer (like 2 weeks, everyday). You can use it to pull hard wizzies and charge a nice sum for it, but I don't do it enough and feel sufficiently comfortable with FBIs to justify doing so. For oral sedation I also charge a small sum each time I do it, ~$100. From my experience most dental procedures can be managed nicely with oral sedation--IV would be an overkill.

The CE class I am going is organized by Zimmer in conjunction with Arrowhead so it's a combination of implant placement along with aesthetic restoration techniques. This is an intro course, all day for 3 days, so I will get the basics and my plan is to exercise good case selection and slowly expand out. My thinking is to start with mand premolars first, and then slowly branch out to molars and then anteriors. It's like dental school--you are given a starting point and then you will have to blaze your own path with your own skill and daring.

Implants in my region are done for a nice sum. In my office, we charge a combined $1600 for fixture placement + uncovering/healing abutment and then $1100 for an implant crown. So financially, it is quite profitable for me to invest in this skillset. Imagine placing 2-3 implants per week and you'd already have $8000 production right there. On the other hand, if the rates were like the Newport ones or the NY ones discussed, I would be much less inclined to do so.

Hope this helps.

 

[periopocket]

Shunwei - absolutely brilliant buddy. Thank you so much for your feedback!

 

[Bds dds]

Shunwei thanks a lot.

 

[Daurang]

The reverse is also true though: If you do have money then you can enjoy the beaches. I just took a 10 day vacation down at Cancun last month with my GF. It was great and I plan on doing it again in August.

With the money saved not paying Cali's 10-13% state income tax plus their high home prices, we can take 10 beach vacations per year and still come out ahead financially. I'll be there Aug 25-30 (my 26th Cancun trip) so maybe we'll meet up for a margarita? Don't forget you also have quick cheap flight to the incredible beaches of the Bahamas, St Thomas, St John, St Maartin, Aruba, Turks and Caicos.

Best states/cities for businesses and careers...

http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/clark-howard/employment-military/best-cities-jobs-and-careers/nPyX5/

 

[Shunwei]

With the money saved not paying Cali's 10-13% state income tax plus their high home prices, we can take 10 beach vacations per year and still come out ahead financially. I'll be there Aug 25-30 (my 26th Cancun trip) so maybe we'll meet up for a margarita? Don't forget you also have quick cheap flight to the incredible beaches of the Bahamas, St Thomas, St John, St Maartin, Aruba, Turks and Caicos.

Best states/cities for businesses and careers...

http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/clark-howard/employment-military/best-cities-jobs-and-careers/nPyX5/

Absolutely, just pm'd you a friend request. You work in Texas as well?

In addition to Daurangs mention of the 10% income tax, CA's sales tax is also 10% in the urban areas. Over the course of a year that also add up to thousands of dollars.

 

[UCSFx2017]

With the money saved not paying Cali's 10-13% state income tax plus their high home prices, we can take 10 beach vacations per year and still come out ahead financially. I'll be there Aug 25-30 (my 26th Cancun trip) so maybe we'll meet up for a margarita? Don't forget you also have quick cheap flight to the incredible beaches of the Bahamas, St Thomas, St John, St Maartin, Aruba, Turks and Caicos.

Best states/cities for businesses and careers...

http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/clark-howard/employment-military/best-cities-jobs-and-careers/nPyX5/

Why take 10 beach vacations when you can live a few minutes away from west coast beaches?