how much do physicians REALLY make?

[Raist]

I know this has been a popular topic in the past, but has anyone actually calculated how much physicians really make compared to a fresh college graduate working from age 22-50 compared to a doctor working from 30-50?

The way I see it, doctors make on average about 150K-190K+ (depending on specialty, region, etc...) after they graduate, but most are about 100K in debt and around 30 years old. Tax, depending on state, takes out a significant amount. Add to that the opportunity cost of attending medical school. You are sacrificing a salary of $30-50K for at least 7 years plus any promotions. College graduates in their twenties can start making contributions to their roth iras and 401K plans, which can add up after 30 years of work. And you have to assume that a reasonbly competent college grad will get promoted once in a while (I konw that most professionals in their 30s can make about 80K-100K a year easy).

So from a financial standpoint, who makes more? I personally think that in the end, both will have accumulated the same amount of wealth, but I've never sat down and calculated a dollar for dollar value. What do you guys think? Am I missing anything?

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[Street Philosopher]

I think people will probably give you the old "money isn't everything" speech pretty soon.

In the end, you do what you like doing, and you get paid to do it. Can't ask for more than that.

 

[kevweth]

Raist,

I think Street Philosopher is right. Watch out for flying remarks about bringing up money. But let's face it, financial stability and success is a common goal in all careers. We should not feel bad for making it a topic of discussion. As long as it's not someone's ONLY motivation for being a doc. I doubt seriously if many would stick it out anyway if that were their only movitation. So let the discussions continue. As many of our teachers have told us: no question is a stupid question.

I, however, totally understand where you're coming from and it's very interesting. I sat down with my wife and Excel and did a sort of scenario spreadsheet just last week and depending on how you tweak the #s, docs (even starting late in life, like me at 28) can still even it up and even do better by retirement time. Check out the following link for 2000 average physician salaries. Certain specialties (most of them actually) can still really make some money, which makes up for those lost years.

<a href="http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html" target="_blank">http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html</a>

[Disclaimer: I would like to find another source to compare these numbers with on above link. I have no reason to believe they are inaccurate though - I know some docs making these type of #s, so I know it's at least possible]

Also, consider all the other opportunities that docs have. Speaking engagements, boards to sit on, consulting late in life, etc., etc.

Bottom line though is we gotta wanna be docs first and foremost because we care; i know, i'm preaching to the choir; you know this.

kevweth

 

[Raist]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Street Philosopher:
•I think people will probably give you the old "money isn't everything" speech pretty soon.

In the end, you do what you like doing, and you get paid to do it. Can't ask for more than that.•••••Street Philosopher-

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm just curious, that's all. Isn't it strange how a 4 year advanced education that is very difficult to obtain might not even benefit you financially? I guess that's the way it is...

 

[rxfudd]

As has been pointed out time after time on threads similar to this (do a search both in here and the lounge for "doctors' salaries"), physicians are the only professionals who have a nearly GUARANTEED opportunity to make 100K+ per year. Every other profession, including law, has a certain proportion of graduates coming out and making little money - maybe 35K to 50K. A doctor is nearly certain (as long as he or she actually practices medicine and doesn't use the MD or DO degree for other purposes, such as research) to make at least 80K and most likely 100K+. The only other profession that is this stable (but has a bit of a lower ceiling) is dentistry. Not a bad deal if you ask me, even with the loans. And if you were going to grad school or law school, you'd still be sacrificing three years of a salary.

To compare a professional's salary with that of someone with ONLY an undergrad degree doesn't make much sense to me. A bachelor's degree doesn't qualify you to do much anymore and is starting to be viewed as another requirement rather than an asset. I would imagine that most people with bachelor's degrees alone come out of college making 40K TOPS unless they are quite fortunate.

 

[Raist]

Kevwith-

Playign the straight numbers game, it seems as if doctors do make more money in the end.

However, do you factor in the fact that tax is almost 50% if your income exceeds $100K (correct me if i'm wrong). The fact that annual $2000 roth IRA contributions and 401K plans a year can end up being millions by retirement? Or maybe I'm missing something, I don't know. It just seems that you can make just about as much as any doctor without going to medical school. (Yes I know, money isn't everything, why do you think I'm still here posting and not working?)

 

[kevweth]

Good points rxfudd.

 

[missbonnie]

degrees do not dictate salary. It may help, may not. I know ppl making way more than 40K out of college. Ppl making over 6 figures w/o college degree. All depends on what you do with yourself.

I would make more $$ staying where I am at my current job. Incurring debts in the 6 figures doesn't make me happy but not doing what I want will ultimately make me unhappy.

 

[mcwmark]

Well, I worked it all out before, using general numbers, and for the bang-for-your-buck, going the business school (at a top 10 school) was the best bet.

Given that there is a minimum of 7 years in opportunity cost (with the present value of money calculations, at an interest rate equal to the expected return on equity) for someone who would make say $50,000 (year 1)- 100,000 (year 7) in those seven years, that is almost a $1 Million in "future value" dollars that is given up. Now add the cost of medical school tuition and repayment, and you've already down nearly $1.2 Million.

The average MD would never catch up (in terms of lifetime earnings) to the top 10 MBA grad, but would to the average lawyer and college grad (nearly 25 years later).

Of course, if you become an orthopedic surgeon (read: $$$), etc, you will catch up, but still, there's an untangible cost of "giving up" at least 7 years of your youth in studying to be a doctor. I did these calculations for a paper I did in an undergrad finance class to answer the question of which (if any) graduate degree would enhance your lifetime earning potential.

 

[kevweth]

Raist,

As I'm sure you know, it would be real tough to do an apples-to-apples comparison because a lot of it is speculation. Most people who would be medical school material would likely be in a high tax bracket anyway. Also, doctors could defer taxes on their money also by aggressively investing in retirement accounts. Not sure of all the details of self-employed, professional retirement accounts but I'm sure there's a 401(k) cousin that one could use. I'm sure of it, just don't know all the details or what it's called.

But, again, I think the compensation is such that there are enough years left in life after residency to match, if not significantly beat, other industries. You'll definitely not be "hurting" financially.

I'm not a night-owl at all. I can't believe I'm still up doing this either. Wife's in Chicago so I guess I'm stepping out...

 

[rxfudd]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Raist:
•Kevwith-
It just seems that you can make just about as much as any doctor without going to medical school.•••••Undoubtedly. The key word here, however, is "can" rather than "will". If one wanted to make buckets of money, he or she would be wisest to get an MBA and go into business. The difference is that you MIGHT make a killing in business, and you conversely might lose everything. Again, there is very little speculation for physicians on what their financial prospects will be. There is much to be said about stability.

 

[Raist]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by rxfudd:
•As has been pointed out time after time on threads similar to this (do a search both in here and the lounge for "doctors' salaries"), physicians are the only professionals who have a nearly GUARANTEED opportunity to make 100K+ per year. Every other profession, including law, has a certain proportion of graduates coming out and making little money - maybe 35K to 50K. A doctor is nearly certain (as long as he or she actually practices medicine and doesn't use the MD or DO degree for other purposes, such as research) to make at least 80K and most likely 100K+. The only other profession that is this stable (but has a bit of a lower ceiling) is dentistry. Not a bad deal if you ask me, even with the loans. And if you were going to grad school or law school, you'd still be sacrificing three years of a salary.

To compare a professional's salary with that of someone with ONLY an undergrad degree doesn't make much sense to me. A bachelor's degree doesn't qualify you to do much anymore and is starting to be viewed as another requirement rather than an asset. I would imagine that most people with bachelor's degrees alone come out of college making 40K TOPS unless they are quite fortunate.•••••rxfudd-

I see your point that an MD guarantees you a pretty good income at the very least.

And yes, people with bachelor's degree make about 40K tops coming fresh out of college. And for 3 or 4 years, they'll probably make the same amount. But experience is considered an incredible asset, and most poeple do get promotions. In other words, not many people work for $30,000-$40,000 for the rest of their lives. Managers in any established firm make upwards of $100,000 a year. At my last internship, my manager made about $90,000 a year and she was around 29. Her vice president made $500,000 a year in her late 40s.

 

[rxfudd]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by mcwmark:
•
Given that there is a minimum of 7 years in opportunity cost (with the present value of money calculations, at an interest rate equal to the expected return on equity) for someone who would make say $50,000 (year 1)- 100,000 (year 7) in those seven years, that is almost a $1 Million in "future value" dollars that is given up. Now add the cost of medical school tuition and repayment, and you've already down nearly $1.2 Million.
•••••I used to use the same reasoning until it was pointed out to me (and I later confirmed) in an earlier thread that most business schools want people to have quite a bit of business experience before getting their MBA. Very few MBA students (if any) begin straight out of college.

 

[kevweth]

Again, good points by rxfudd and now by mcwmark.

But like rxfudd said, business is always a "maybe". Medicine is pretty darn stable.

And there are LOTS more hungry MBAs out there than medical doctors.

Regarding degrees, I've seen many articles lately (Wall Street Journal, etc.) telling how the MBA is losing it's savor as so many people have it, etc. It's not cheap getting a good MBA either!

In business, you really gotta be a star and repeat it every year to have doctor-like earning potential.

 

[kutastha]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Raist:
•Kevwith-

Playign the straight numbers game, it seems as if doctors do make more money in the end.

However, do you factor in the fact that tax is almost 50% if your income exceeds $100K (correct me if i'm wrong). •••••From the IRS' "2001 Tax Rate Schedules" publication:

Assuming a gross income of $180,000, and using only the standard deductions for each filing status below, you get the following gross federal tax rates (which are almost certainly high for a $180,000 income, since they include no itemized deductions whatsoever) :

Single (Schedule X, $4550 std deduction) : $50099.50 -- 27.8%
Married, filing jointly (Schedule Y-1, $7600 std deduction) : $43949.50 -- 24.4%
Married, filing separately (Schedule Y-2, $3800 std deduction) : $54915.66 -- 30.5%
Head of Household (Schedule Z, $6650 std deduction) : $46616 -- 25.9%

Note again that these figures assume *no* itemized deductions at all -- not even for student loan interest and mortgage interest -- and they also assume no deductions for dependents. Even ignoring those deductions, the maximum tax rate you can get (married, dual-income, no kids, filing separately, no itemized deductions) is 30.5%. For a head of household, the upper limit drops to 25.9%, and will drop lower if there are any dependents involved.

Additionally, the percentages would decrease drastically after paying your malpractice insurance.

 

[Bikini Princess]

There are doctors of internal medicine who make as low as $63,000.

 

[Raist]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by mcwmark:
•Well, I worked it all out before, using general numbers, and for the bang-for-your-buck, going the business school (at a top 10 school) was the best bet.

Given that there is a minimum of 7 years in opportunity cost (with the present value of money calculations, at an interest rate equal to the expected return on equity) for someone who would make say $50,000 (year 1)- 100,000 (year 7) in those seven years, that is almost a $1 Million in "future value" dollars that is given up. Now add the cost of medical school tuition and repayment, and you've already down nearly $1.2 Million.

The average MD would never catch up (in terms of lifetime earnings) to the top 10 MBA grad, but would to the average lawyer and college grad (nearly 25 years later).

Of course, if you become an orthopedic surgeon (read: $$$), etc, you will catch up, but still, there's an untangible cost of "giving up" at least 7 years of your youth in studying to be a doctor. I did these calculations for a paper I did in an undergrad finance class to answer the question of which (if any) graduate degree would enhance your lifetime earning potential.•••••This seems to be a touchy subject, but hey, so what?

mcwmark-

Have you ever calculated the potential wealth and income for people who just make $2000 contributions to roth IRAs and 401K plans? I'm about two years removed from my last accounting class, so I don't remember the exact numbers and exactly how the roth IRA works. Let's assume for simplicity sake that they're a complete dunce and keep on making a measly $50,000 for the rest of their lives-- as some people have insinuated a BA entails. I'm curious because most poeple don't take roth IRAs into account (heck I didn't even konw about it until that accounting class).

 

[Raist]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by kutastha:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Raist:
•Kevwith-

Playign the straight numbers game, it seems as if doctors do make more money in the end.

However, do you factor in the fact that tax is almost 50% if your income exceeds $100K (correct me if i'm wrong). •••••From the IRS' "2001 Tax Rate Schedules" publication:

Assuming a gross income of $180,000, and using only the standard deductions for each filing status below, you get the following gross federal tax rates (which are almost certainly high for a $180,000 income, since they include no itemized deductions whatsoever) :

Single (Schedule X, $4550 std deduction) : $50099.50 -- 27.8%
Married, filing jointly (Schedule Y-1, $7600 std deduction) : $43949.50 -- 24.4%
Married, filing separately (Schedule Y-2, $3800 std deduction) : $54915.66 -- 30.5%
Head of Household (Schedule Z, $6650 std deduction) : $46616 -- 25.9%

Note again that these figures assume *no* itemized deductions at all -- not even for student loan interest and mortgage interest -- and they also assume no deductions for dependents. Even ignoring those deductions, the maximum tax rate you can get (married, dual-income, no kids, filing separately, no itemized deductions) is 30.5%. For a head of household, the upper limit drops to 25.9%, and will drop lower if there are any dependents involved.

Additionally, the percentages would decrease drastically after paying your malpractice insurance.•••••Thanks for the numbers! Does that include state tax?

 

[Street Philosopher]

For the record, I find this topic interesting too, and I'm not all sensitive about $$$ and medicine.

I think it's a mistake to view education too heavily in terms of financial investment. There are PhD's that don't break 6 figures, and that's pretty common actually. So education and wealth aren't necessarily related. Obviously

The expectation of a high salary probably come from the competition and prestige in medicine. I really don't understand why being a doctor is so competitive. It's a lot of sacrifice and requires so much dedication, and the payoffs can only be worth it if it's really what you enjoy doing.

Anyway, that's just an observation, not an admonishing in any way. As a side note, my sister just finished her residency and now has a job doing internal for 140K in Los Angeles. That's pretty sweet! I don't think my sister could make that kind of money doing anything else. (She's not business minded AT ALL, and she's not like ultra competitive, win everyone over type of person)

I'd be pretty happy with 140,000.

If anyone has any more data, I'd love to see them out of curiosity. I have never taken a real econ class so I have no idea how to calculate these things on my own.

 

[Raist]

The reason I posed the question in the first place was because my PI spent the last couple days trying to convince me that doctors are not as well paid as most people think they are, especially for the sweat and tears they put in. (I think he just wanted me to go to grad school instead) Alot of people say that medical school is no longer the road to wealth it used to be. Street Philosopher, I totally agree with your point-- do what you love and let the chips falls where they may.

Rxfudd- your point is well taken. There is MUCH to be said about career and financial stability, not found in business and law.

Kevweth- I stand corrected. I guess the government taking half our salaries is just a myth

mcwmark- I'm still waiting for the roth IRA data, if you still remember how it goes. All I remember was my professor pointing out $2000 investments over a 30 year period that came out to be millions.

 

[kutastha]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Raist:
•Kevweth- I stand corrected. I guess the government taking half our salaries is just a myth •••••You're welcome.

 

[STi555]

There is obviously truth to claim that the being a doctor is not as $$ rewarding as it once was. And doctors certainly work for their money. However, I think that if making a large amount of money is important to you and you want to be a doctor that you can do very well for yourself as a doctor if this is a goal of yours. I am looking forward to earning money (even the amount residents earns seems appealing right now) instead of paying. It is also worth making a note that if we were making money sooner we would probably not save it but waste it. Being poor so long teaches us how to use money wisely :wink: .

 

[Street Philosopher]

Dude if you take into account sales tax, which is 8.25% in California, you're reaching like 40% already. Then there's property tax... It could end up being pretty high.

 

[brickmanli]

MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING

 

[Papa Smurf]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by brickmanli:
•MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING•••••IT'S THE ONLY THING! :wink:

 

[Bandit]

Now dont every one take this the wrong way but, I have been a practicing PA for some time now. I started clearing 100k a few years ago -- new car every 3 years, plus a comp pakage worth nearly 35% of the salary. I bring this up because of the relatively modest school loans when compared to medical school. No residency where you get paid squat for four years -- almost not fair really -- I started out after school almost triple what a resident earns. Just another point of view -- it is not about the money.

 

[Mystique]

Ok, here's a hypothetical example to give you somewhat of an idea.

Let's say you're a specialist, and you've been in private practice for a few years. Here are some numbers.

We'll say your income is hmmm $700K.
Almost $200K of that will go toward taxes.
If you have an office staff of 4, subtract another umm let's say $100K.
Don't forget to incorporate office expenses like phone bills, condo dues, medical supplies, utilities, your employees' health insurance, and the like...realistically, this is gonna be expensive...somewhere around the $75K mark.
This leaves us at 700K-200K-100K-75K=$325K; this is how much of your money is actually yours to throw around (notice how that's less than half of what you make). I have a friend who's a venture capitalist (and a good one at that) who makes around $750K, and he doesn't have to worry about any big "expenses" besides taxes. So, in the end, he actually sees more of his money. I think you can go into other professions and in the long run make just as much money (since you'll see more of it), but obviously medicine offers the job security other "professional" jobs can't guarantee.

 

[dr. momo]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by rxfudd:
•
To compare a professional's salary with that of someone with ONLY an undergrad degree doesn't make much sense to me. A bachelor's degree doesn't qualify you to do much anymore and is starting to be viewed as another requirement rather than an asset. I would imagine that most people with bachelor's degrees alone come out of college making 40K TOPS unless they are quite fortunate.•••••except for the people who are going out of the country to teach english, i don't know anyone graduating from undergrad this year who's making that little money. some are making six figures.

not that it matters.

 

[vkrn]

A few weeks ago, the Sunday Magazine of the New York Times interviewed an internist in New York. One of his staff members commented that, based on the number of hours he worked, his hourly pay was about $5.50.

 

[Raist]

This has been quite interesting!

The original point of this thread was to clear up confusion regarding salaries and how much physicians really make. There are plenty of current doctors who are UNHAPPY because they were disillusioned into believing that they would be paid exorbitant wealths and they realize that they could do something much easier and be better off financially.

Some people have the perception that once you start making the $150K-$300K salary out of your residency (which is 3 years for family practice, as long as 7 years for one of the high paying fields), that you'll actually see all of that money and well on your way to a life of relative wealth and stability. I think there is a growing misperception that those who do not enter the medical field are doomed to a life of mediocre pay and living near the poverty line, and they feel they must enter medicine in order to have financial security and stability. This is simply not true. There are so many other issues involved, where it's simply not that simple.

Can anyone comment or speculate intelligently on these other issues and how they will play a role in affecting our financial situation? Is there a tax attourney who can say for sure how much tax we'll be paying (ie. how much we can defer, how much do we have to pay outright due to our large salaries, etc...)? Is there a financial planner who can calculate the opportunity cost of years of work and making contributions to retirement plans? Are there any current doctors who can comment on malpractice, etc..?

 

[Street Philosopher]

Yes I would like to know about malpractice insurance as well. I've heard about the crazy rates in Nevada, and I wonder how high it is in California. That could be a big chunk of the annual salary!

 

[STi555]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Street Philosopher:
•Yes I would like to know about malpractice insurance as well. I've heard about the crazy rates in Nevada, and I wonder how high it is in California. That could be a big chunk of the annual salary!•••••Malpractice insurance in Californiais is not anywhere near as bad as Nevada because California has caps on damages that can be awarded for pain and suffering. It is still a large amount of money but the doctors can still make a living.

 

[BlueJayBill]

malpractice insurance is quite costly for surgeons, still a chunk for physicians.

talking to a few accountant friends of mine, no way do most doctors even pay more than 20% of their incomes in taxes.. There are so many loopholes, tax shelters, and deductions they can write off. (also property tax is pretty neglible for most physicans -- maybe max 2% of the value of your home; most areas are under 1%.) -- In addition, everyone has to pay property tax, so it's not something to be worried about or is a basis for any comparison

someone brought up the IRA argument, which is kinda bogus. The government is going to increase the amount one can put into such an coount (increasing $1K till it hits 6K). People earning up to 50-60K can't usually afford to put the full amount of money. (Often 2K is a stretch). However, people earning 100K+ can usually save and invest a heck of a lot more. And, IRA's aren't the only ways to save-- and probably a poor means of comparison. 401Ks and general investment accounts are sooo much larger for those who earn 100K+ (and earn it later) than those who earn 50-60K.. it all stems from saving rates...

Bleh, i hate finance.

-Bill

 

[Mystique]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Raist:
• how much do we have to pay outright due to our large salaries•••••Instead of paying one big lump sum ($200K+) in April, you can divide it up into quarterly payments (April, June, September, and January), so it doesn't leave as deep a hole in your checkbook. Does that answer your question?

 

[Mystique]

As far as malpractice premiums go, it depends on your location and specialty. You can pay anywhere from a few thousand to hundreds of thousands. My dad is in a low-risk specialty, and he pays $4K annually for malpractice insurance, but a colleague of his in the same specialty pays almost twice as much up North. Here's an interesting article about <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick_02/prl10107.htm" target="_blank">malpractice insurance</a> from amednews.com.

 

[qkitty]

It's not about the money for sure. In some countries, a physician makes less money than a high school teacher. But still their medical schools have a lot of students!

For people who want to enter a financial rewarding career, there are many options now. e.g. Some of my friends who work in IT industry make 150K+ in their late twenties and they can switch jobs easily whenever they're borded with the current one, even in slow economy time. They only have bachelor degrees with much lower GPA's than us.

There are so many challenges in front of a physician before you can see "that much" money: the premed years, the financially miserable medical school years, the 100+hr/wk residency years, getting married at an older age, high divorce rate, high suicide rate, shorter life time esp. for some specialty, etc. It's not about the money.

 

[rxfudd]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by dr. momo:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by rxfudd:
•
To compare a professional's salary with that of someone with ONLY an undergrad degree doesn't make much sense to me. A bachelor's degree doesn't qualify you to do much anymore and is starting to be viewed as another requirement rather than an asset. I would imagine that most people with bachelor's degrees alone come out of college making 40K TOPS unless they are quite fortunate.•••••except for the people who are going out of the country to teach english, i don't know anyone graduating from undergrad this year who's making that little money. some are making six figures.

not that it matters. •••••You happen to know some very fortunate people. A college degree doesn't mean squat anymore - all it does is allow you to get past a salary ceiling and maybe start at a bit of a higher salary. I've never met anyone who came out of college making more than 35K, and CERTAINLY not six figures, unless they had prior experience, a rare gifted affinity for their field, or happen to be in a REALLY hot career at this point in time. The average student coming out of undergrad with a degree looking for a job is not nearly so lucky. Sounds like your friends struck gold somehow.

 

[skyhawkd]

I was told by the Admissions Committee Chairman for UW that nobody should go into medicine because they think that is the road to riches. He suggested business for those who want to be rich.

 

[skyhawkd]

I forgot to add this... if you wanna be rich move to WA because we have NO state income tax. Hence why Bill Gates and Paul Allan and many more billionares and their companies are based out of WA.
Also, my dad is a CPA and he can attest to the fact that yes, in fact doctors make a lot of money. One client splits a practice, works part-time, and still brings in $150,000 a year.

 

[Raist]

The purpose of this thread is to paint an accurate and unbiased picture of the financial situation of current and aspiring physicians, no matter how bleak and dire or bright and optimistic it may be. I think it is in everyone's best interest to know what your financial situation will be, even for those who are so compassionate that they would practice medicine for free (no sarcasm intended). So thank you to thingamajig and bluejaybill for your contributions. Any one else?

 

[Bandit]

It is important that young med students (and residents) understand that the salaries posted on web sites are avereages and not always acurate. My brother is a surgeon -- first year after residency -- 140k. Almost 5 years later -- 165k. Dont get me wrong, he has earning potential not yet realized, but that is not the wealth everyone expects after residency. My fiancees sister-in-law is a pediatrician. Get this, first year out of residency???---88k. Thats it man. 4years later -- 105k. Like I posted before, it doesnt seem fair to her that I as a PA made over 100k and she, the physician, made less money. Her school loans were killing her and she could not even afford to get a new car (one of the things she really looked forward to). She too has great earning potential, as all physicians do, but there are much easier ways to make lots of money than medicine. It is really the truth -- you dont get into medicine for the money.

 

[rxfudd]

Raist, here is a thread from March about malpractice insurance that you (and others who were not around then) might find interesting:

<a href="http://forums.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009337;p=1" target="_blank">Now THIS Is Scary!!!</a>

 

[rxfudd]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Bandit:
•It is important that young med students (and residents) understand that the salaries posted on web sites are avereages and not always acurate. My brother is a surgeon -- first year after residency -- 140k. Almost 5 years later -- 165k. Dont get me wrong, he has earning potential not yet realized, but that is not the wealth everyone expects after residency. My fiancees sister-in-law is a pediatrician. Get this, first year out of residency???---88k. Thats it man. 4years later -- 105k. Like I posted before, it doesnt seem fair to her that I as a PA made over 100k and she, the physician, made less money. Her school loans were killing her and she could not even afford to get a new car (one of the things she really looked forward to). She too has great earning potential, as all physicians do, but there are much easier ways to make lots of money than medicine. It is really the truth -- you dont get into medicine for the money.•••••In what city? The averages found on internet sites are not valid not because they are wrong, but because they are national averages. A much more efficient way of predicting one's salary would be to find the average for your specialty in your location. In some cities, 165K goes further than 200K would in other cities.

 

[Mindy]

Hello all:

This isn't my usual area of posting, but as a MS3, I would like to add my thoughts on the money subject.

1) You will live comfortably as a doctor. Period.

2) DO NOT GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL FOR THE MONEY! I am not being moralistic. As a pre-med, I had NO IDEA how medical school would change my life. The 4 years you spend at medical school is about conditioning (read: brainwashing) you to act/react as a person who dictates whether another human will live or die (at least for the time being.) This obviates a responsibility that CANNOT be adequately compensated with money or anything else. (Why do you think physicians are constantly grumbling about being under-compensated?) Understand before attending medical school that this responsibility is an immeasurable burden which most doctors cannot shake as long as they remain practicing. Why do you think "lifestyle" professions, such as radiology, EM, and PM&R are so attractive to med students right now? Because there is LESS responsibility/burden when you are away from the hospital. No amount of money will compensate for the time you lose becoming (and being) a physician.

3) Become a doctor if you cannot imagine being anything else.

Okay, just my thoughts. Honestly I wish someone had told me this as an undergrad.

Mindy

 

[Dr. Kermit]

I'll go out on a limb and post my dad's earnings. He is a psychiatrist at a federal hospital. His pay is ~150K. When I was filing my FAFSA, after taxes, IRA/401K deductions, and health insurance, he took home 108K last year. That is about 28% in taxes/retirement. Keep in mind that this is a government salary and if he had gone into private practice *which did not interest him* he could have made more.

On a side note, I have friends that yes are earning b/w 50-60K out of college in science industry and on Wall Street, but they are also being given pink slips and have very little job security. They are also in a bind b/c most business schools require 2-5 years of work experience. My boyfriend's brother worked for Sapient (a big IT consulting firm) for 5 years. He was laid off after 9/11. His fiancee was also laid off and she has a MBA and cannot find work. So, although they were earning the big bucks for 5 years, they are now living off of unemployment. Keep in mind that a MBA can cost you as much as 100K too in tuition and fees.

As for law school, my boyfriend is a going to be 2L at a top 10 this fall. He said that the starting salary we see of 100K-120K that lawyers make are only those who come from top schools or those who go into big name firms. Even then they work you 80-100 hours a week. Also, similarly to a residency, lawyers can choose to do a clerkship with a judge after law school. They only make 25-30K/year and work just as many hours as a resident.

 

[Boundless Energy]

Look, I will give you guys a little glimpse at the working world, which seems so glamorous to all of y'all, but 99% of you have never been actually in it, for real. I was able to finish college in 3 1/2 years, and instead of just going on holiday for 8 months, I decided to work in the industry, biotech, that is. While the pay was decent, I saw people in their 30s, 40s, 50s with essentially the same job that I had.... careers are stressful, and NOTHING is given.
Now, as I have been accepted to medical school, I am very eager to begin. And If medicine is right for you, you will be rewarded in pay, rather handsomely. It pains me to see so much misinformation by people who DON'T have a clue as to what actually happens as a physician, or other careers for that matter. Being a doctor, you WILL become wealthy, depending on how much effort you put in... don't you ever wonder why there is soooo much competition to get into medical schools??? But regardless, the money should not be your sole purpose in becoming a doctor... you should like, or even love what you will be doing.

And finally, money management is key to any profession.... business skills and investing acumen are needed in this field more than ever.

And for the people that bitch about health insurance companies -- its somewhat of a hassle, but they can be dealt with rather well, it just takes a bit of diplomacy.... they are nothing compared demanding supervisors/managers.

SO QUIT WHINING, BE HAPPY.... the interest rates on student loans are fairly low, so take advantage of them... you may even find you can profit off of the spread in rates and make some cash on the side... (this is coming from a guy that actually profited from going to college -- hehe).

 

[Mutterkuchen]

Amen Boundless. Though some MBAs and lawyers make lots of money, only the very top ones do. We all know people that have a bachelors degree and make a very decent living. I am an older student and got my bachelors several years ago. My friends that did not go to med school are making 40,000 to 60,000. My friends who went to med school are making $100,000+. All of the friends that I am referring to would have been good med school candidates, with high undergrad grades. Interestingly, my friend (non med) who makes the most money is a welder with a bachelors. He makes around $75,000.

 

[gasdoc]

I am speaking from a intern (currently, at least until 6/30th) going into anesthesiology point-of-view. I agree w/ many others that money is not the end all and that doc's salaries are not what they used to be. But, I also agree w/ others that medicine is probably the only major profession where you are guaranteed a 100K+ salary after training. I also feel that we doctors DESERVE high salaries b/c we put in a lot more sacrifice in time and energy to attain it. And lets face it, doctors are still some of the brightest of the bright in America. So, its sort of a birth right in some ways that doctors should be paid highly. The problem is that we are not being paid as much as we used to. But, the good news is that doctors also don't work as hard as they used to. All new doctors, no matter what specialty, including the heavy hitters like surgery, cardiology, etc, are working less hours. So, naturally the pay will be less. It is all for the best though. I personally believe medicine should be a career, not my life. My life should also include family and fun besides medicine.

As for salary, it varies by region. The West Coast has some of the lowest salaries, especially California where I am b/c of the saturation of doctors. New family practiticioners and pediatricians, as always for generalists, have the lowliest pay. Their starting salaries is in the low 100K's, but can be 80K-90K in metropolitan LA, San Diego b/c of the desireability of living here. But, that's only some offers, most are still over 100K. Now, you might say where is this info from? Well, I am a "transitional" intern in a large family practice program and know by talking to senior FP residents who have gotten job offers. As for the rest of the country, the East coast is also lower pay. The high pay places are the midWest and many SW places including Texas. The poor South can be lower paying too.

As for specialists, the specialty w/ the most demand right now are radiology (high pay like mid 250K starting even in California), cardiology (high pay like rad), anesthesiology (my future specialty...again high pay in the mid 200K's starting in even California), gastroenterology (starting mid 200Ks), etc.

From these figures, you can see that specialists always has and probably always will make more than generalists. The 90's primary care boom (i.e.HMO) is OVER. Specialty medicine has come back into favor. The demand is for the specialties I named above. The reason America will always be a specialist driven society is b/c Americans believe specialists can treat their specific ailments better, technology drives specialty care, and malpractice/lawsuits make providing specific care hard for primary care doctors (i.e. A FP will get grilled for having a bad birth outcome by the trial lawyer...why wasn't an OB/Gyn involved?, why, Dr. FP, didn't you refer this pt w/ heart failure to a cardiologist? b/c of cost? now he's dead! --&gt; this tort stuff makes it hard for generalists to take care of complicated problems, even if they are absolutely capable).

 

[kevweth]

Thanks for the info gasdoc.

Nice to have insight from an actual physician.

What about dermatology? Is your experience that it is one of those highly competitive specialties like the others you named? I have heard from many resources that it is.

 

[cutes]

Actually, I think that the tax rate of ~50% is if you make more than $300K/year. I don't want to be a know-it-all or anything, but I thought you might be interested.