how much do residents make?

[ironicallyunsur]

that's my question.

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[Winged Scapula]

that's my question.

Varies somewhat from region of the country and by level of training, but most make in the mid 40K to mid 50K per year. Depending on the length of your program, you can get up into the 60K range. General increase is around $1500-$2000 per year.

Some programs pay more or give housing allowances, especially those in expensive areas of the country. Some may have better benefits which are worth more than a higher salary elsewhere.

If you go here http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/graduate-medical-education/freida-online.shtml you can do a search by specialty and region of the country and most programs will have a fairly accurate salary listed.

 

[Schemp]

about 50k and it goes up as you've been doing it longer. that's what i remember when i looked about a year ago anyway.

 

[BlueElmo]

Varies somewhat from region of the country and by level of training, but most make in the mid 40K to mid 50K per year. Some programs pay more or give housing allowances, especially those in expensive areas of the country. Some may have better benefits which are worth more than a higher salary elsewhere.

That's actually pretty good money. But I guess residents deserve more since they work so hard.

 

[Winged Scapula]

That's actually pretty good money. But I guess residents deserve more since they work so hard.

Eh...perhaps seems like it for a 40 hr workweek, but for 80 hrs per week its not that great, given the responsibility.

Back "in the day" we made $35K for 120 hrs per week or so. The good thing was that it was easy to save money since you had no time or energy to spend it!

 

[Schemp]

Eh...perhaps seems like it for a 40 hr workweek, but for 80 hrs per week its not that great, given the responsibility.

Back "in the day" we made $35K for 120 hrs per week or so. The good thing was that it was easy to save money since you had no time or energy to spend it!

the good old days!

 

[redlight]

Eh...perhaps seems like it for a 40 hr workweek, but for 80 hrs per week its not that great, given the responsibility.

Back "in the day" we made $35K for 120 hrs per week or so. The good thing was that it was easy to save money since you had no time or energy to spend it!

120 hrs a week? that's madness.

only 48hrs outside of the hospital per week?? less than 7 hrs per day??

 

[BlueElmo]

120 hrs a week? that's madness.

only 48hrs outside of the hospital per week?? less than 7 hrs per day??

120 hours? That's like 17 hours a day for 7 days a week. I mean, so you start like 6AM and end at 11PM everyday? How did they do it?

 

[Schemp]

That's why they made rules where residents can't work more than 80 hours in a week on average. If it weren't happening the rule wouldn't have been created. I think the thing to do was 36 hour shifts, wasn't it? Obviously you have time off in between, but don't you just stay in the hospital and (hopefully) sleep during that time?

 

[Ashers]

Eh...perhaps seems like it for a 40 hr workweek, but for 80 hrs per week its not that great, given the responsibility.

Back "in the day" we made $35K for 120 hrs per week or so. The good thing was that it was easy to save money since you had no time or energy to spend it!

Yeah, I've got my dad (ortho) telling me how nice I've got it now. Only 80 hours a week instead of the 120 he did for $9000/year (mid-1970s). He's also adding his first year in private practice he made $50K.

I'll be making about $50K (the least I saw for the 2009-2010 year intern salary was about $43K).

120 hours? That's like 17 hours a day for 7 days a week. I mean, so you start like 6AM and end at 11PM everyday? How did they do it?

No, no. From my dad's stories and my mom (ER nurse at the hospital, so she could see him occasionally) validating 5AM day 1 -- 6PM day 2 on call days, and 5AM-6PM at least on non-call days.

Edit: He said he was on call q2 most of the time. His best call was senior call Q3 in house call where he didn't have to wake up for everything.

 

[Lukkie]

That's actually pretty good money. But I guess residents deserve more since they work so hard.

right. i "work" for 40 hours a week. more than half of that is goofing around on the internet (SDN), shooting the **** with coworkers and hiding from my PI. and i get paid like a lower end resident, who is a legal slave

 

[BlueElmo]

right. i "work" for 40 hours a week. more than half of that is goofing around on the internet (SDN), shooting the **** with coworkers and hiding from my PI. and i get paid like a lower end resident, who is a legal slave

But of course, it's you right? I wouldn't expect anything different.

 

[Winged Scapula]

120 hours? That's like 17 hours a day for 7 days a week. I mean, so you start like 6AM and end at 11PM everyday? How did they do it?

As Ashers notes, it is somewhat variable.

A typical day would mean coming in at 4:30 (or 3:00 if on CT Surgery) and you'd stay until evening rounds were done. We had a Chief resident who would go home and we wouldn't round until he came back...that might be 8, it might be 9. Whenever his mecurial, evil self thought to come back. If the Chief was still in the OR, you waited until they finished...whenever that was.

Call was q2 or q3 and you did not go home post-call. You stayed the entire day after. You might get a nap if you weren't required to go to clinic or the OR (the OR was the "reward" for post-call interns...believe me, there is nothing rewarding about holding a scope in a dark room holding back the liver when you've been awake for 30 hours) AND if you had a nice senior resident who would take your pager.

Thus, 36 hr or longer "shifts" were not uncommon. My longest straight "shift" was around 42 hrs, although I once stayed in house for 3 days as Chief residency on Vascular Surgery (after work hour restrictions were instituted). There were no guaranteed days off.

We did it because it was the norm. It was expected. You were weak if you complained because you knew all of your Chiefs and attendings did it. I have never been much of a sleeper, had no children and had a SO who was also a surgery resident so he understood the hours, so it was "easier" for me. But it took its toll.

 

[SunDevilDoc]

Somewhere I heard it was 35k for 80 hrs/wk. Thats good to hear its closer to 50k. 35k is 8$ per hour, that would have been pretty bad. I make more than that doing customer service work. It's still worth it though.

 

[Winged Scapula]

That's why they made rules where residents can't work more than 80 hours in a week on average. If it weren't happening the rule wouldn't have been created.

That is correct - the rules came about because of Libby Zion, although they took years to implement and there are still problems with enforcement.

I think the thing to do was 36 hour shifts, wasn't it? Obviously you have time off in between, but don't you just stay in the hospital and (hopefully) sleep during that time?

This is where you are in error. There are very few "shift" residencies in existence; EM would be the notable exception. The 36 hour "shifts" were not followed by any real time off. You could expect, in the old days, to work a 36 + hour shift and then be back to start another regular day in a few hours.

As an example:

- come in at 0500 for day on call (or earlier, but lets use 0500)
- go home post call at 5 pm next day (36 hrs)
- come back 12 hrs later to start again at 0500

In those 12 hours you needed to connect with your family/SO, eat, do some household chores, perhaps put gas in your car, and of course sleep.

If you were on call q2, that next day would the start of another 36+ hours. It was always a wonder to me that more of us weren't killed driving home post-call.

 

[CoolWhipp]

...My longest straight "shift" was around 42 hrs...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Strangely it wasn't as tiring as the 3 days in house as Chief, even though I didn't sleep at all. Something about a several short naps, continually interrupted over 3 days was more tiring (add the stress of being Chief resident on Vascular with some pediatric trauma kid threatening to lose his leg).

But you do what you have to do, as I'm sure all you would have done/will do when the time comes.

 

[DocDrakeRamoray]

about $ 2.40 per hour, if you divide salary by the number of hours they work and do work related activities

 

[235009]

If you go here http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/graduate-medical-education/freida-online.shtml you can do a search by specialty and region of the country and most programs will have a fairly accurate salary listed.

this is an excellent resource...thanks!

i was looking through the programs in the location and specialties i'm considering and there is a whole lot of variability in salary, benefits and even program length! i was under the impression that the number of years of residency is set by specialty and didn't vary between hospitals.

 

[vickpick]

120 hours? That's like 17 hours a day for 7 days a week. I mean, so you start like 6AM and end at 11PM everyday? How did they do it?

they probably went on a 36 hr stretch and took off 12 hrs and then a 24 hr stretch and 12 hrs break and the same again... and again.. I guess that would make mroe thn gettin a 7 hr break whre half time will be spent eating and cleaning..lol

 

[Winged Scapula]

this is an excellent resource...thanks!

i was looking through the programs in the location and specialties i'm considering and there is a whole lot of variability in salary, benefits and even program length! i was under the impression that the number of years of residency is set by specialty and didn't vary between hospitals.

You are under the correct impression. With very few exceptions (ie 3 vs 4 year training programs for EM, programs that require research), all residencies within a specialty ARE the same minimum length.

What you are probably looking at is that some specialties require a Prelim year. Some programs will include the Prelim year, some will not. Thus it looks like the programs are differing lengths. In addition, some programs have required research tracks, others do not (this is most common in surgery); this will result in a variable length.

Finally, I believe the database is for "years approved" - some programs may be approved for a longer residency than you have to do, should you wish to add on some research, an MPH, etc. This is different than the required length which is set by the relative specialty board and is not alterable.

In addition, take the data from FREIDA with a jaded eye (especially the work hours data)...it is self-report and usually filled out by some administrative type that may or may not know the answer. It may not be updated either.

If you want to provide me the links where you see different lengths of training, I can give you a definitive answer as to why that is, but I suspect its the Prelim included thing.

 

[235009]

for instance:

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/...do?method=searchByPgmNbr&pgmNumber=0403511108 (required length of 4 years)

vs.

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/...do?method=searchByPgmNbr&pgmNumber=0403521106 (required length of 3 years)

 

[Law2Doc]

Somewhere I heard it was 35k for 80 hrs/wk. Thats good to hear its closer to 50k... though.

More like mid 40s to start. And the 80 hour week rules are not universally being complied with as yet. So it's hardly a great salary. Look at it as education without the tuition and it's easier to stomach.

 

[amph119]

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm bad at math.

 

[Evergrey]

that's my question.

When you do the math it comes down to about $12-15 an hour. I made that kind of money standing outside holding a sign for a summer job. My friend made better money as a pizza delivery boy that same summer. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

 

[Winged Scapula]

for instance:

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/...do?method=searchByPgmNbr&pgmNumber=0403511108 (required length of 4 years)

vs.

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/...do?method=searchByPgmNbr&pgmNumber=0403521106 (required length of 3 years)

I can see why you are confused and this goes to show you that you cannot take everything from FREIDA as accurate.

Anesthesia is a 3 year residency which is preceded by a Preliminary Medicine, Surgery or TY, for a total of 4 years.

In the first link, they state that the required length of the program is 4 years, yet they do not offer Preliminary years and their anesthesia training is the typical 3 years. Thus I believe this to be a mistake. The training is 4 years in length but you have to get your first year done elsewhere and then go to St. Luke's for your anesthesia training CA1-CA3.

In the second link, the information is correct. You do 3 years there after doing a Prelim year elsewhere.

If you click on the General Information tab in the above links you will see more details of length of training. You can also go to program websites for more info.

 

[Winged Scapula]

When you do the math it comes down to about $12-15 an hour. I made that kind of money standing outside holding a sign for a summer job. My friend made better money as a pizza delivery boy that same summer. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

Its not ironic, its sad. The Dominos pizza down the street is offering $20/hr for delivery drivers and I live in a pretty safe upscale neighborhood, so I doubt the drivers are getting some sort of "combat" pay.

 

[MossPoh]

My dad started his residency in the 60s in NYC. Evidently they started him off at 200 dollars a month during his internship year. It rose to a little more so he could afford a crappy apartment in the Bronx, which in 60s NYC was equivalent to the biggest fire trap/ghetto you could find. He had the benefit of having a mother who made dinner for his kids and a wife that worked to supplement his 120 hour weeks, but it was still pretty rough.

 

[235009]

It is what it is. Is delivering pizzas going to bring you personal satisfaction? Afterall, the numbers in that checking account are going to disappear anyways to paying the bills. So do what will bring you a happy smile at the end of the day. By all means, feel free to apply for the pizza delivery job and go and fix plumbing problems during the rest of the day and make a lot of money. Or you can continue to help a person become healthy again.

sorry but this is bullsh*t

residency is like an apprenticeship ...you make a crappy wage while you're learning the trade in the hopes of making a lot more money later on...with pizza delivery you are already at the top of the mountain making your $20/hr

 

[Winged Scapula]

It is what it is. Is delivering pizzas going to bring you personal satisfaction? Afterall, the numbers in that checking account are going to disappear anyways to paying the bills. So do what will bring you a happy smile at the end of the day. By all means, feel free to apply for the pizza delivery job and go and fix plumbing problems during the rest of the day and make a lot of money. Or you can continue to help a person become healthy again.

Fair enough. I do not deny that we all have different ideas on what makes us happy. That isn't what the comment was about. If you truly have the unicorns and butterfly attitude about medicine and that you would work for free to help people become healthy, that's great. But I suggest that a few more years of training and working will most likely change that attitude into someone that feels that your training and education and RISK should be rewarded as it is in almost every other profession.

I expect that most resident physicians and pretty much ANYONE else in the world would be disappointed and suprised to know that after all the hard work, sacrifice, malpractice risk that they earn less than someone without a HS education delivering pizzas.

I can tell you from personal experience that the junior nurses were suprised that they made more money than the residents...this usually came as they went home after their shift and returned the next day to find us still there, never having gone home. It opened some of their eyes to the disparity.

 

[Schemp]

for instance:

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/...do?method=searchByPgmNbr&pgmNumber=0403511108 (required length of 4 years)

vs.

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/...do?method=searchByPgmNbr&pgmNumber=0403521106 (required length of 3 years)

What the hell, for the 3 year program you apparently get 90 sick days per year, haha.

 

[Winged Scapula]

What the hell, for the 3 year program you apparently get 90 sick days per year, haha.

Yeah, somehow I don't see that actually being given. Or someone taking it being "invited" back the next year for residency.

We were made to sell back our personal days during residency. No sick leave, no personal days. Just 3 weeks vacation (1 week less than all the other residency programs in the same hospital).

 

[3pin3phrine]

Yeah, somehow I don't see that actually being given. Or someone taking it being "invited" back the next year for residency.

We were made to sell back our personal days during residency. No sick leave, no personal days. Just 3 weeks vacation (1 week less than all the other residency programs in the same hospital).

Thanks for putting all of this into perspective. We have along road ahead of us and thanks for the heads up.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks for putting all of this into perspective. We have along road ahead of us and thanks for the heads up.

You're welcome.

Bear in mind that my perspective doesn't cover all specialties and certainly not all residency programs. You may have a better or worse experience but I think its valuable to learn from those who have gone before you.

If anything, what you can learn from this thread is that any one trained before 2003 will have worked more hours per week than you can comprehend. Thus, it will behoove you not to complain about being tired.

 

[Ilovewater]

Do residency programs actually stick to the 80hr/week rule? I've read somewhere that some programs kind of ignore this rule a little bit.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Do residency programs actually stick to the 80hr/week rule? I've read somewhere that some programs kind of ignore this rule a little bit.

HIGHLY variable.

Some do.

Some try.

Some do not try.

And sometimes you go over hours because the census is high, one of your colleagues is off, or because its the right thing to do to stay and finish the work or take care of a crashing patient YOU know well (rather than handing him over to the call person).

Remember its 80 hrs a week averaged over 4 weeks, so that means you can go over as long as you are under some other week.

 

[Octagonecology]

I noticed that noone has chimed in regarding moonlighting. Can anyone add as to what kind of $ you can make doing this? Winged? Seems like with your surgical residency schudule...when could you possibly do that?

 

[ensuii]

IMO, the oppurtunity cost of not being in the hospital when in residency is pretty low unless you actually have a life (ie, wife, kids, etc.). I mean cmon, does 80-120hrs really sound that bad? It's not like you're doing manual labor, hunched over a table in 100 degree for 16 hours a day. You're talking to people, their families and making them feel better. (...and checking out hot co-workers)

 

[Winged Scapula]

I noticed that noone has chimed in regarding moonlighting. Can anyone add as to what kind of $ you can make doing this? Winged? Seems like with your surgical residency schudule...when could you possibly do that?

The first question you need to ask is whether or not your program allows moonlighting.

Most surgical residencies do not allow moonlighting unless you are in the lab doing research.

The average moonlighting job for residents ranges between $50-$100 an hour; we polled people once and most were making around $50 with more holidays. Doing a 24 hr shift on a weekend can bring you around $1000 or more once taxes are taken out. Many of us doubled our residency salary by moonlighting.

 

[Winged Scapula]

IMO, the oppurtunity cost of not being in the hospital when in residency is pretty low unless you actually have a life (ie, wife, kids, etc.). I mean cmon, does 80-120hrs really sound that bad? It's not like you're doing manual labor, hunched over a table in 100 degree for 16 hours a day. You're talking to people, their families and making them feel better. (...and checking out hot co-workers)

This is an exceedingly naive post.

While residency doesn't have the physical component of manual labor, do not underestimate the amount of psychological stress it entails. This will wear you down.

And 80 hours doesn't sound that bad? Not even 120 hours per week? Have you ever worked that much and coupled it with the stress of taking care of people?

While I agree that 80 hrs per week is doable, believe me, FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE IT, I would never wish 120 hours per week of residency on anyone. It is extremely painful, both physically and psychologically.

FYI:unless you're going into Derm, you will have very few hot co-workers.

 

[genswim24]

The first question you need to ask is whether or not your program allows moonlighting.

Is there anyway to find this out beforehand?

Do residents ever moonlight even if the program does not allow it?

Thanks for any help you can give

 

[ensuii]

This is an exceedingly naive post.

While residency doesn't have the physical component of manual labor, do not underestimate the amount of psychological stress it entails. This will wear you down.

And 80 hours doesn't sound that bad? Not even 120 hours per week? Have you ever worked that much and coupled it with the stress of taking care of people?

While I agree that 80 hrs per week is doable, believe me, FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE IT, I would never wish 120 hours per week of residency on anyone. It is extremely painful, both physically and psychologically.

FYI:unless you're going into Derm, you will have very few hot co-workers.

Yeah, I have. I used to be a full-time teacher and EMT taking shifts on weekdays. I really don't think it would be that bad. Besides, if you could do it, how hard could it possibly be?

 

[Lukkie]

Your job sounds like mine, except I make $65k a year.

LOL - then you make as much as the median female physician

 

[tresbon]

Eh...perhaps seems like it for a 40 hr workweek, but for 80 hrs per week its not that great, given the responsibility.

Back "in the day" we made $35K for 120 hrs per week or so. The good thing was that it was easy to save money since you had no time or energy to spend it!

How're going to repay your huge study/tuition loan with such a low starting salary? Goodness.

 

[caniac]

Yeah, I have. I used to be a full-time teacher and EMT taking shifts on weekdays. I really don't think it would be that bad. Besides, if you could do it, how hard could it possibly be?

the interwebs is not the correct medium for sarcasm without emoitcons, and if that was serious...ouch. unnecessary.

 

[Law2Doc]

HIGHLY variable.

Some do.

Some try.

Some do not try.

And sometimes you go over hours because the census is high, one of your colleagues is off, or because its the right thing to do to stay and finish the work or take care of a crashing patient YOU know well (rather than handing him over to the call person).

Remember its 80 hrs a week averaged over 4 weeks, so that means you can go over as long as you are under some other week.

To expand on this, I would say (largely from what I see/hear from colleagues, which has extreme regional bias) that about half actually comply (particularly including the cushier specialties that couldn't hit 80 hours if they tried). Of the remainder, most "try". By "try" it means they have a system in place whereby you are "supposed" to sign in and sign out at specific times, and leave promptly thereafter. Meaning, you are very often "officially" signed out and off the clock, but no way in he77 you are going to leave the hospital and face the abuse the next day of not having done X,Y, and Z or sticking it to the float team, and no way you want the reputation and evals of someone who doesn't pull their weight, or seems in a rush to run out of the hospital. So programs go through a charade of having a sign out by a specific, set time, and so you sign out, hand over the pager, and then scramble to finish up whatever it is you said was going to be done before you left. The program doesn't know the difference -- all they know if you did your sign out and to their knowledge you are off the clock, as they have mandated. Then there's the final small group of places that are still blatantly running afoul of the 80 hour rule, and have no safeguards in place -- they just go about their business, working residents hard and hoping not to be cited.

As the above poster indicated, it's an 80 hour average, which means working 100 hours in one week is totally fine if you have a few days off later in the month. Finally, I would note that the 80 hours doesn't include stuff you do from home. So if you go home and read up on a condition affecting one of your patients, or log on and adjust medications remotely, you aren't breaking the rules. So many places are investing in software to "allow" residents to get stuff done remotely on top of the 80 hours. Expect to see more of this.

In terms of moonlighting, bear in mind that the more protective the IOM gets, the less moonlighting will be allowed. Right now, a significant percentage of programs do not allow moonlighting because that counts towards the 80 hour rule, and programs don't want the administrative hassle of figuring out who is capping out. Expect more/most programs to disallow moonlighting as the next set of IOM work hour requirements get implemented.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Do residents ever moonlight even if the program does not allow it?

...

No way. It's potentially career suicide. A program that finds out might throw you out, as you are risking their accreditation if moonlighting would put them at risk of violating the 80 hour rule, and you would be hard pressed to find someone else who would take you. You are very early in your career as a resident. So you follow the rules. A few extra bucks isn't work jeopardizing your career before you start.

 

[genswim24]

No way. It's potentially career suicide. A program that finds out might throw you out, as you are risking their accreditation if moonlighting would put them at risk of violating the 80 hour rule, and you would be hard pressed to find someone else who would take you. You are very early in your career as a resident. So you follow the rules. A few extra bucks isn't work jeopardizing your career before you start.

Great, thanks for the info. I just wasn't sure how strict they were on those rules. I also didn't realize that it counts towards the 80 hour limit. Some of the medical books I read had people mention that they were moonlighting when the hospital told them not too. I didn't know how realistic this really was, or if it was something more commonly done during a previous era.

 

[ensuii]

You get paid and treated like crap because you know next to nothing and are being trained. I would obviously love higher residency pay, but I can understand why it is what it currently is. I really don't think its that bad....it's the idea of contrasting the pay while being massively in debt that's a little worrisome.

 

[Ashers]

Look at my posting in response to skinMD.

I think Winged Scapula understands how medicine is regulated seeing that she is a surgical attending.

You get paid and treated like crap because you know next to nothing and are being trained. I would obviously love higher residency pay, but I can understand why it is what it currently is. I really don't think its that bad....it's the idea of contrasting the pay while being massively in debt that's a little worrisome.

They did have economic hardship deferment that was applicable for residents. That's gone away, and now you can forbear your loans during residency. It's mandatory for loan companies and servicers to do to the Residency Forbearance. You can make payments if you like, or you don't have to do any. There's no prepayment penalty, and not paying does not negatively affect your credit. So while it sucks, it's doable. You can also get the interest tax deduction if you pay interest during residency since you're in a lower tax bracket than you will be as an attending.