How much do you know about the inner workings of your program?

[RayneeDeigh]

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After a particularly stressful meeting today, I'm just wondering how much of the administrative/political details you guys know about your program. For instance, are you informed when accreditation reports are found to have problems? Do you know how many students are struggling to finish their degrees? Are you aware when there are problems with profs wanting less hours or positions not being filled?

Do all programs have issues like these?

 

[WaitingKills]

My program overseas had issues like that. They didn't affect me because I did my thing to get my degree done, rather than getting tied up in the politics of it. Theoretically, the department's issues shouldn't impact your progress in your degree.

But ya, answering your question... I think all programs have issues of some sort or another.

 

[phd2006]

Theoretically, the department's issues shouldn't impact your progress in your degree.

But ya, answering your question... I think all programs have issues of some sort or another.

Theoretically, you're right, the department's issues "shouldn't" impact your progress -- but in reality, it will. Yes, most/all departments have issues - although the degree of severity ranges. I need to find the reference (any one here know?) but the AVERAGE for being ABD hovers around 50% -- this is across all disciplines, not psych specific. Not everyone finishes -- programs hate to admit this. As a student in a program, you should know the findings of accreditation reports -- how else are you going to help make your program better?

Also important to know if faculty positions are filled or not. Say you want elective XYZ and it's offered this year by an adjunct faculty -- you may want to take it, as there is no guarantee the course will be offered next year as the adjunct may have moved on a permanent position elsewhere.

 

[Ollie123]

I'll have to tell you in a year or 2.

I FEEL like I have a decent sense of it, but I really can't say since "What don't you know" is kind of a hard question to answer😉

I do know there is some behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on as far as people not getting along with advisors and stuff like that, but frankly, that will happen anywhere. We're not a very political department. That isn't to say its all rainbows and puppy-dogs here, some people don't get along. The difference is that so far it seems like everyone is willing to cooperate enough where it doesn't pose a problem.

No idea what our ABD rate is here, but I expect its pretty low and most are ABD by choice and not because they didn't make it. I'm not in the least bit concerned about it, I haven't heard of anyone going ABD who really wanted to finish. Haven't heard tales of anyone not finishing, and the department seems REALLY willing to work with people who have exceptional circumstances.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm pretty in the know (since I make it my business 😀 ). I think it is important to stay on top of things that may effect you. Accreditation is DEFINITELY an important aspect, as is graduation rate, ABD rate, and internship placement rates.

-t

 

[psychwhy]

I seem to remember a discussion here not so long ago where a group of not-yet-first year grad students confidently shared their plans for making it through the graduate school journey unscathed.

Thought it might be illuminating to share that my hospital just hired an ABD as a mid-level practitioner. She was at a Tier I fully funded program. Her then-husband's business failed (and apparently her marriage too). Point blank, they could not survive on her "fully-funded" stipend. After a stint as a receptionist at a beauty parlor, she landed an entry level mental health position, which later brought her to this current mid-level position. (Remember, she is ABD, already had her Master's degree before she had to leave the program!)

Her program is academic/research focused meaning they will not let her retool her dissertation into an applied/clinical topic. So, she is now investigating enrolling in a -- 😱 -- distance program just so she can finish her degree!

Remember the words of the philsopher Lennon: "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans."

Best of luck, guys.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I seem to remember a discussion here not so long ago where a group of not-yet-first year grad students confidently shared their plans for making it through the graduate school journey unscathed.

Thought it might be illuminating to share that my hospital just hired an ABD as a mid-level practitioner. She was at a Tier I fully funded program. Her then-husband's business failed (and apparently her marriage too). Point blank, they could not survive on her "fully-funded" stipend. After a stint as a receptionist at a beauty parlor, she landed an entry level mental health position, which later brought her to this current mid-level position. (Remember, she is ABD, already had her Master's degree before she had to leave the program!)

Her program is academic/research focused meaning they will not let her retool her dissertation into an applied/clinical topic. So, she is now investigating enrolling in a -- 😱 -- distance program just so she can finish her degree!

Remember the words of the philsopher Lennon: "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans."

Best of luck, guys.

Haha, you'd just love to see us all have personal issues that would prevent us from graduating right?

I plan to make it out of here in a timely manner with valuable and marketable skills. Somehow you managed to make my honest question about how "in the loop" programs allow their students to be into an opportunity to tell us how naive we've all been. Maybe I'm not bitter yet but I think that's a GOOD thing.

 

[Ollie123]

My thoughts were along the lines of "meh".

I repeat. I'm not in the least bit concerned about it🙂 Maybe that makes me naive, but it seems like the relatively small number of people who have problems here kind of brought it on themselves.

 

[JockNerd]

I'm with you, Ollie... I'm doing fan-freakin-tastic. 😀 I love my program. I feel like I'm getting so much done and my cohort just rocks my socks. All I have to complain about is that its taking me longer to get paid than I thought it would 🙁 And my GOD do I need to buy a scooter--the buses here just suck.

I feel like I'm kept informed of program stuff. Several of the professors here are really informal and are really good about letting us know what's going on. I think all programs have some things going on in the background, but really vary in the degree to which they let that affect students.

I totally see psychwhy's point though. Major life-altering event ARE par for the course over graduate school, and I know I expect my funding to be able to support both me and a partner at a standard to which I'd grown accustomed. Or maybe I could just save the money I'd spend on a scooter by enrolling in a distance program. 😉

 

[psychwanabe]

After a particularly stressful meeting today, I'm just wondering how much of the administrative/political details you guys know about your program. For instance, are you informed when accreditation reports are found to have problems? Do you know how many students are struggling to finish their degrees? Are you aware when there are problems with profs wanting less hours or positions not being filled?

Do all programs have issues like these?

At this point, I know very little about the politics of my program. I am keeping my eyes and ears open though and am already catching which faculty members are solid and which ones are on the edge/merely tolerated by their peers.

By the end of my undergrad, I had a very clear picture of most of the major issues in the department, and that was when I wasn't even paying attention to it. I intend on keeping a much better ear to the ground in my grad program.

I seem to remember a discussion here not so long ago where a group of not-yet-first year grad students confidently shared their plans for making it through the graduate school journey unscathed.

I have no memory of this discussion. Quite the opposite, we were all fully cognizant of the difficult years ahead.

I'm with you, Ollie... I'm doing fan-freakin-tastic. 😀 I love my program. I feel like I'm getting so much done and my cohort just rocks my socks.

I'm with you JN, I'm having a blast so far! Of course, I'm clocking in about 70 hours a week already, but I was expecting that. My cohort is great as well...it seems that we are going to get along just fine. Always nice to know when you're going to be almost living with these people for 4+ years.

 

[JockNerd]

At this point, I know very little about the politics of my program. I am keeping my eyes and ears open though and am already catching which faculty members are solid and which ones are on the edge/merely tolerated by their peers.

By the end of my undergrad, I had a very clear picture of most of the major issues in the department, and that was when I wasn't even paying attention to it. I intend on keeping a much better ear to the ground in my grad program.

I got some really good advice from an emeritus prof about this.... basically, the only person you *have* to listen to is your adviser. Smile and nod for everyone else, and be polite and courteous, and then do what you and your adviser want to do. Some people might try to intimidate you or boss you around or use you, but no one will go against your adviser.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I got some really good advice from an emeritus prof about this.... basically, the only person you *have* to listen to is your adviser. Smile and nod for everyone else, and be polite and courteous, and then do what you and your adviser want to do. Some people might try to intimidate you or boss you around or use you, but no one will go against your adviser.

Yes to the first part, no to the second part.....people will definitely go against your advisor with some stuff. Little stuff like a prof's preference for how you do an integrated report, that seems like the most common (some like longer, others short, some req. a very strict structure, others are a bit more open). It isn't a big deal, but understand that sometimes you need to do things a certain way in class, and a different way with your advisor/supervisor. I've seen this happen at practicum with writing notes, and also with conceptualization.

Politics between advisors typically extend to their advisees.

-t

 

[Ollie123]

Good point T4C, that matches up almost word for word with what I've been hearing.

Grad school is basically a balancing act. Balancing getting your research with clinical work with class work, balancing what professor y wants you to do with what professor z wants you to do with what you want to do, balancing work with not-work to avoid insanity, etc.

I think its good to keep in mind that your advisor is the one who determines your future more than the department, but its still important to try and make everyone happy🙂

I'm having a bit of that myself right now since while I absolutely ADORE my lab (I mean how can I not? If all goes according to plan I should be getting 2 posters and 2-3 pubs submitted as a FIRST YEAR🙂 That's not even counting anything that I get from working with my old lab), the research direction is a bit different than I was hoping for. Not bad by any means, but I can definitely see what people mean when they talk about balancing things out.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Sounds great Ollie!

Balance is *THE* word in grad school. There is so much going on, you need to be able to balance everything. I just spoke with someone the other day about it.

-t

 

[psychwhy]

RayneeDeigh: Haha, you'd just love to see us all have personal issues that would prevent us from graduating right?

Actually, nothing could be further from the truth, RD. But your jumping to this extreme conclusion precisely illustrates the arrogance to which I was alluding.

RayneeDeigh: I plan to make it out of here in a timely manner with valuable and marketable skills. Somehow you managed to make my honest question about how "in the loop" programs allow their students to be into an opportunity to tell us how naive we've all been. Maybe I'm not bitter yet but I think that's a GOOD thing.

Just love how your questions are all honest, but anyone challenging your naive preconceptions has some sort of nefarious motivations. Isn't the point of this forum to share the perspectives of people in different stages of the process? What could be the reason why you seem reflexively dismissive of those who have actually completed it?

We all tend to sport rose colored glasses when things are going well. This reminds me of how my father was so enthusiastic to move from a liberal northeastern state with high taxes spent on too many social programs. However, a few years later, his job with a defense contractor was eliminated and in the low tax state to which he had moved had none of the social service programs that he now found himself needing.

I do hope you all do well, enjoy your programs, and find it a positive experience. However, the perspective I was trying to share before was there are many who do not finish -- for a variety of reasons -- and later seek alternatives. Contrary to the tone presented, these people are not lazy, stupid, evil (whatever). The reality is that professional psychology is best viewed with rose colored glasses. IF something goes wrong (or you fall afoul of departmental politics even!), and you might need some accomodation to continue, there isn't a whole lot out there to provide that for you.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You both bring up good points; it definitely isn't all about group hugs and puppy dog kisses (though I do love me some puppy dog kisses). ABD and unlicensed professionals are definitely out there, and many are due to circumstance, some by choice, and some for academic reasons. We need to remember this is a VERY self-selecting group, so the bell curve will be a bit skewed.

ABD was a major concern of mine, because I tend to try and do 8 different things at once, and I have the temptation of standing non-clinical offers (all 6-figure plus), which is quite amotivating when you are staring down a research/clinical deadline, and living on a shoe-string budget. I know my friend was ABD for like 5-6 years because of a great career opportunity, and another had to re-apply because of some extenuating circumstances (he got the extension and promptly finished).....and both were at prestigious research institutions.

I like these kind of threads because it lets people from all different stages share. It is important to go in with your eyes open, but it also helps to go in positive....because if you go through the entire processed freaking out, it will be a LOOOOOOOOOOONG 5,6,7 years. I'm on the back-end, and it has been totally worth it, but there have been a few really tough moments, and I've seen some friends have to change/delay their paths because of life changes.

-t

 

[JockNerd]

I think there's a big difference between rose-coloured glasses and having reasonable, sensible plans along with contingencies. I think my plan is great. I really don't see myself going into any debt in the next five years, especially since my income is higher than it was over the past 4 years and my expenses are lower. Being able to make a good plan is not naiveté.

Will I have trouble if there's some major catastrophe? Well, yes. But I'd have trouble if I was in a funded program, in a distance program, or already working. So, I'm not really sure how the example psychwhy gave is germane--seems to me the woman in the story would have been in trouble no matter what she was doing in her life. Was it just a cautionary tale that things don't always go how we plan? If so, the logical bridge from that to "your plans will fail" isn't apparent to me. Sensible plan + risk that's always there seems much better to me than no plan + risk that's always there.

 

[psychwhy]

JockNerd: So, I'm not really sure how the example psychwhy gave is germane--seems to me the woman in the story would have been in trouble no matter what she was doing in her life. Was it just a cautionary tale that things don't always go how we plan? If so, the logical bridge from that to "your plans will fail" isn't apparent to me. Sensible plan + risk that's always there seems much better to me than no plan + risk that's always there.

JN, I am in 100% agreement that it is best to have a plan. The point I have been trying to make was that the tone in previous discussions seemed to have been that by simply having a plan that would fend off any possible negative outcomes.

I am puzzled that you seem to think my co-worker "would have been trouble no matter what she was doing in her life." That sounds awfully close to blaming the victim. I'm pretty sure there are some life events we simply cannot predict, but whose impact is, well, life altering. I just hope if anyone has the misfortune of experiencing such an event, all of your hard work and demonstrated ability is not cast aside because of inflexible and arbitrary program administration.

 

[KillerDiller]

I am puzzled that you seem to think my co-worker "would have been trouble no matter what she was doing in her life." That sounds awfully close to blaming the victim.

I'm pretty sure that all that was meant by that was that your co-worker's troubles were rooted in her marriage and her husband's job and not in her choice to enroll in a fully-funded Ph.D program. Nobody is blaming her for her misfortune, life happens.

 

[amy203]

Before I chose to attend grad school, my husband and I sat down and reviewed our finances, and talked about what we needed to do to survive off my stipend, including what we would do if he couldn't find a job right away or if we ran into hard times. Anyone who doesn't do this type of budgeting work before starting grad school (or any other low-paying but rewarding job) needs to turn in their "grown-up cards" right now.

Graduate students are poor. This was made clear to me by every school I considered attending. We were made aware of what our guaranteed stipend would be and what we needed to accomplish to receive this stipend. If any students had not received full funding in the past 10 years, we received this information as well. We also received all of this information in writing. If someone chose not to use this information, or if life suddenly made living off that stipend impossible despite budgeting, the schools should not be blamed. If a school refuses to provide you with this information in writing, DO NOT attend that program.

As for accreditation issues and students not graduating on time, it's definitely better to have this information before starting a program. The Insider's Guide includes stats on the average number of years it takes students to complete a program. This is also a question that everyone should ask at interviews. Unhappy grad students will tell you they are unhappy.

Finally, I'm pretty sure accreditation reports are public knowledge. Does anyone know? For instance, I know that the issues at Columbia and NYU (before they dropped their clinical program) were very well known, but I'm not exactly sure how.

 

[psychanon]

Her program is academic/research focused meaning they will not let her retool her dissertation into an applied/clinical topic.

I just hope if anyone has the misfortune of experiencing such an event, all of your hard work and demonstrated ability is not cast aside because of inflexible and arbitrary program administration.

I don't think that having to do an empirical dissertation is an inflexible, arbitrary rule. That's a cornerstone of the academic degree. Ph.D.s are fundamentally research degrees, and granting a Ph.D. is the program's way of stating "This person is ready for an academic career." Doing a research dissertation is the principal way of proving that. I would indeed hope that my program would adhere to such stringent guidelines, even in the event that I had experienced a life upheaval, because to do otherwise would be to compromise the integrity of the degree.

 

[socialcog]

Actually, nothing could be further from the truth, RD. But your jumping to this extreme conclusion precisely illustrates the arrogance to which I was alluding.

Just love how your questions are all honest, but anyone challenging your naive preconceptions has some sort of nefarious motivations. Isn't the point of this forum to share the perspectives of people in different stages of the process? What could be the reason why you seem reflexively dismissive of those who have actually completed it?

We all tend to sport rose colored glasses when things are going well. This reminds me of how my father was so enthusiastic to move from a liberal northeastern state with high taxes spent on too many social programs. However, a few years later, his job with a defense contractor was eliminated and in the low tax state to which he had moved had none of the social service programs that he now found himself needing.

I do hope you all do well, enjoy your programs, and find it a positive experience. However, the perspective I was trying to share before was there are many who do not finish -- for a variety of reasons -- and later seek alternatives. Contrary to the tone presented, these people are not lazy, stupid, evil (whatever). The reality is that professional psychology is best viewed with rose colored glasses. IF something goes wrong (or you fall afoul of departmental politics even!), and you might need some accomodation to continue, there isn't a whole lot out there to provide that for you.

As an aside, I'm finding some of your comments, when not constructive, taking on a disparaging tone and I'm finding myself glossing over (at best) your contributions to this forum.

On the whole, I have found this site to be a wonderful resource.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I don't think that having to do an empirical dissertation is an inflexible, arbitrary rule. That's a cornerstone of the academic degree. Ph.D.s are fundamentally research degrees, and granting a Ph.D. is the program's way of stating "This person is ready for an academic career." Doing a research dissertation is the principal way of proving that.

When I was looking at programs, I looked at balanced programs (both PhD and PsyD), and all of them had research as an important aspect, and skimming on that is a slippery slope. I'm not saying all PsyDs are heavily involved in research, but PhD SHOULD be that involved. A PhD is traditionally a PRODUCER of research...that doesn't mean they HAVE to do it throughout their career, but I think the degree implies an ability to conduct at least a certain level of research.

-t

 

[amy203]

I also think it's worth pointing out that most programs really want their grad students to finish. They have to report attrition rates, and ABDs reflect poorly on their program. Also, assuming it is a funded program, they invest a lot of money in their students and it is a waste if the students don't get their degrees.

As for psycwhy's example, I'm a little surprised that she didn't just buckle down and finish her dissertation in progress, and then look for a more applied internship. There's no reason why your dissertation topic should impact your ability to get clinical work later on. Finally, if she decided in the middle of her "research-oriented" program to switch her emphasis and the school couldn't accommodate her (I can think of a number of logistical reasons why this might be the case), I don't really see how that's the school's fault. She knew what she was getting in to. If you're in a chemistry program and you want to switch your emphasis to french literature, you can't really blame the chemistry program when they say they can't help you.

 

[Ollie123]

Count me in the "not quite getting it" category as well.
Getting a Ph.D. isn't my goal, getting a degree that ascertains my ability to conduct solid empirical research and enable me to obtain a tenure-track job and secure future research funding is my goal.

I'd make the argument that a school that DID allow her to retool her dissertation (at least to that degree) is probably an inherently bad school. Its one thing to allow a student to make small changes to accomodate recruitment difficulties of a certain population or something, its quite another to say "We know you're having a rough time, so just write up a case report from your practicum and we'll give you a PhD".

I came hear knowing what I need to do, and I have a student handbook that says exactly what I must accomplish to graduate. I picked my schools to apply to because I thought they adhered to very high standards for their students, and am comfortable with the fact that this is the grown-up world now, and if I don't make the cut (for whatever reason), I have to either find a way to pull it off or go down a different road. This is not third grade and I don't expect "You tried, and that's enough" to still apply. If **** hits the fan in my life and something terrible happens, that sucks on a personal level, but I can accept going in that I have a very high bar to pass, and I can either succeed or fail in meeting those goals, there is no(and shouldn't be) any in between. Some forms of flexibility are nice (i.e. varying class times, allowing someone to take a leave of absence to have children etc.), but I think its vital that schools don't sacrifice quality in the interest of seeming "flexible". I have no problems with people having different pathways to achieving the same standards, I do have a problem when different people have to meet different standards. I think allowing someone from a research program to graduate without achieving what is essentially the all-encompassing final exam of graduate school is irresponsible, unethical, and an insult to each and every other student who attended that school.

 

[JockNerd]

Ollie, t4c, Amy, and psych had some great thoughts, I think. I don't think that my position is blaming the victim... KD interpreted what I intended from my post and amy expressed more fully the kind of thing I was thinking.

Ollie, I am so in agreement about standards. Things are just slipping, slipping, slipping, it seems to me.

 

[Ollie123]

Yup, its the prevailing attitude across society today in nearly all facets, and it kind of makes me sick. We've almost reached the point where its seen as bad or discriminatory to have standards. I mean, can I appeal to Journal of Abnormal to publish some piss-poor paper I wrote because I was going through a breakup while working on it? No? Then I don't see why education is expected to make those kinds of sacrifices just in the name of pushing people through.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This isn't directed at anyone, just more of my soap box at the moment. I'm also projecting my current frustrations, since I just had a conversation like this with someone recently, and maybe because I just lost a bunch of money gambling (though I got a free trip on the casino, so I guess broke even in that sense. )

Getting a doctorate isn't suppose to be easy, and it frustrates me that people think it will be like picking up a new hobby. It is a life sacrifice (people want it not to be, but it really has to be if you want to get proper training). I talk to so many people and they are like, 'Yeah, I'll probably go back for my doctorate, I just need to pick a school". It is NOT that easy. It is like that in a lot of graduate professions, but I hear it a TON since shows like L&O came out (real forensic psych is so NOT what they do on there).

I don't think you need to sacrifice your first born, though many put off kids until internship/licensure...so in a way, it is sorta on that path. Just because people have watered down most everything in society today, doesn't mean a doctorate should be like getting a bachelors. People seem to have this sense of entitlement that says, "well, I worked hard....I deserve it".

It also doesn't help that we as a profession don't do enough to educate the public about what we do! Many people still think they lay on a couch and talk about how their mom/dad screwed them up (wait...that does happen 😉 ), and others think we profile serial killers.

Okay, time for some dinner, I"ll catch ya'll later this week.

- t

 

[JockNerd]

I don't think you need to sacrifice your first born, though many put off kids until internship/licensure...so in a way, it is sorta on that path. Just because people have watered down most everything in society today, doesn't mean a doctorate should be like getting a bachelors. People seem to have this sense of entitlement that says, "well, I worked hard....I deserve it".

I cannot tell you how much I agree (Ollie too). Students have such a deep an entrenched sense of entitlement. Ha--why do you think there's such rampant grade inflation? Kids who are used to being handed everything aren't going to be prepared for doing actual work in school. BAs (and BScs) are given out like Halloween candy. I think goes back to how willing we are to reward mediocrity at all levels, especially childhood (with "everyone wins" contest days and such), and a bizarre emphasis placed on a misunderstood concept of self-esteem.

I had a conversation with a guy who failed to get into med school at my university. He was upset that he didn't get in while so many "foreign" students did (actually, 90 of the 101 spots are reserved for residents of the province). He thought that first dibs should go to local students. I was astonished--that seems like the quickest route to mediocrity I've ever heard. But I think the prevailing attitude among students is something like it--Give me what I want, if I don't get it because I lack qualifications, ability, or EFFORT, then I've been cheated. I hate that this idea is becoming so widespread in academia....

 

[Ollie123]

Its actually becoming a VERY serious problem with children in remedial classes at younger ages.

They're being taught that if they can't do something, that's okay, the world will just keep making it easier until they can do it. Thus a lot of them no longer see any reason to try, and the cycle perpetuates itself. I worked with some local schools that were having this problem and its becoming incredibly widespread, and very serious.

Anyhow, sorry everyone, that was way off topic. Back to inner workings about programs!

 

[Ollie123]

Speaking of getting back on topic, I can now say for sure that yes, we are kept in the loop here🙂

I just got a copy of the full accreditation report from our last site visit. Apparently we have not had any problems with accreditation since we started. Not really surprising since APA sets a pretty low bar, but still nice to know🙂

 

[psychwhy]

psychanon; I don't think that having to do an empirical dissertation is an inflexible, arbitrary rule. That's a cornerstone of the academic degree. Ph.D.s are fundamentally research degrees, and granting a Ph.D. is the program's way of stating "This person is ready for an academic career." Doing a research dissertation is the principal way of proving that. I would indeed hope that my program would adhere to such stringent guidelines, even in the event that I had experienced a life upheaval, because to do otherwise would be to compromise the integrity of the degree.

Sorry psychanon, but you (and many others) are so missing the point here.

Of course a PhD (and many PsyDs today) require an empirical dissertation. My co-worker was not suggesting she not be required to complete a dissertation. Her problem was that her program is pure science oriented (e.g. why do rats continue pressing the lever?) and her change of circumstance prompted her to ask for an applied dissertation (e.g. does the MMPI correlate to risk of reoffense behavior?).

This isn't just about "buckling down" and doing the work. Circumstances put her in a different placement (one which paid more than $10,000/yr). She is still eager to complete a dissertation. But are you all seriously suggesting that psychologists working in a state hospital are not doing work that would be suitable for research and/or publication? Perhaps you are familiiar with the publication Journal of Applied Psychology?

Therapist4Change: Getting a doctorate isn't suppose to be easy, and it frustrates me that people think it will be like picking up a new hobby.

It is this sort of comment that puts me over the wall.

Again, of course it is supposed to be difficult. I have never said/suggested/insinuated otherwise!

But the challenge should be commensurate with the credential.

Would it make any sense for a psych PhD to require that you be able to reassemble a car engine blindfolded (certainly a difficult task) -- of course not, because that is not what the discipline is about. So, why then does earning a PhD/PsyD require you to pretend that life doesn't exist for 4 - 7+ years? Why should someone who has had an unfortunate life event reflexively be cast aside? Just because of an unfortunate life event have they suddenly become less qualified? Less capable? Less valuable as a clinician?

Remember, she didn't flunk out! She completed her Master's and comps. All that was remaining was her dissertation!

Believe me, I am in 100% agreement with your assessment that there are parts of the academy which have bent over backward to obliterate any sort of risk/challenge to attaining an undergraduate degree. (Remember, I teach undergraduates, so I am in regular contact with those who feel they are not required to actually expend any effort to get a stellar grade because they have paid tuition and therefore are "owed" a good grade!)

However, that is not the same as creating arbitrary and unrelated hurdles that students are expected to clear "just because." Believe me, as someone who has actually completed a doctoral program and internship, I look back at many of the tasks I was made to endure and ask "how has this made me a better psychologist?" The answer is: "They didn't!" It was just a form of academic hazing.

socialcog: I'm finding some of your comments, when not constructive, taking on a disparaging tone and I'm finding myself glossing over (at best) your contributions to this forum.

As, of course, is your right and perogative.

But how sad for you to admit that you are "glossing over (at best)" comments from someone who has actually completed the process, has been involved in national and state psychological association activities, contributes regularly to an APA publication, and is (perhaps most importantly) actually working in the field -- as both a clinician and undergraduate instructor.

The group here was trying to dismiss my colleague insinuating that she just wanted it to be "easy." Well, guess what? Life, academia, and the profession of psychology are not all sunshine and puppies. There are some pretty unpleasant realities all around. This is the major leagues. If you aren't ready to play all nine innings, well ...

Yeah, my tone is sharp at times. Know why? Because I have worked hard to get where I am and it is rather insulting to have people arrogantly dismiss my attempts to contribute to the forum because my observations/experiences challenge their biases borne from their limited personal experiences.

Please, tell me how you react when you attempt to share your insights with a group and they tell you (in essence) "F*** off, we know better"?

 

[Ollie123]

That's interesting that they wouldn't ler her retool into something more clinical. I've never heard of that before. Can I ask what school it was? (If you don't want to say its okay, or feel free to PM).

I mean, provided it is a project of the same scope(your example didn't sound like it was, but I'm guessing that was just an example and not the actual study proposed), was original, and involved active data collection, not just a retroactive analysis of already collected data, I don't see the harm. We're extremely research-oriented but plenty of people incorporate clinical/applied aspects into their theses and dissertations here. I know of a few going on as we speak.

 

[amy203]

Again, I think you're missing all of the logistical issues inherent to your friend's situation. If no one in your friend's department was familiar with the topic of research she was proposing, then there's no way she could set up a dissertation committee qualified to sign-off on her research. It would be irresponsible of the institution to support a project at another location when they couldn't monitor it. There are actually quite a few people in my department who do there dissertation work in other cities, but they are still in close contact with their advisors and there topic is something their advisors can comment upon.

No one is saying this women's experience didn't suck! I think the point is that it wasn't the school's fault. They told her what her stipend would be and then she got divorced and couldn't live off the stipend anymore (even though I'm sure other single people pulled it off). Then, when she decided to get a job, her program wasn't set up to accommodate working students, nor did it ever claim to be. The school wasn't dishonest or unfair.

A PhD/PsyD means you spent 4-6 years of your life working 50-80 hours per week immersing yourself in your field. A person who is able to finish their graduate degree in 4-6 years while still working even part time has not put in nearly the hours they need to and will be less capable, less qualified, and less valuable as a clinician and/or researcher. Schools cannot and should not accommodate students who are unwilling to accept this.

 

[phd2006]

Let's see if we can bring this to the thread's topic......

A student is now ABD (meaning finished all courses AND internship) but is not able to complete their dissertation due to lack of funding. Isn't one of the most common reasons people are ABD, is that they ran out of $ (whether from funding or personal resources) or accepted a job after internship and now are getting $ for working w/no time to finish the dissertation? Regardless, if the student 'only' has the dissertation to complete -- many have been done long distance (of course, having to defend in person) -- I'm having difficulty understanding....oh wait.....did said student not yet propose their dissertation? not yet collect their data?....now bringing back to thread topic....

Make sure to understand your university's policies regarding dissertation and internship. Many internships require the dissertation at least be proposed and some require the dissertation to be completed (in hindsight -- make sure your dissertation is defended and completed (i.e., all revisions completed, submitted to graduate office, bound, etc.) prior to internship). As part of knowing the policies for your university, know what the deadlines are for completing and defending the dissertation.

In other words, know your student handbook inside and out.

 

[socialcog]

But how sad for you to admit that you are "glossing over (at best)" comments from someone who has actually completed the process...blah blah blah....

Yeah, my tone is sharp at times. Know why? Because I have worked hard to get where I am and it is rather insulting to have people arrogantly dismiss my attempts to contribute to the forum because my observations/experiences challenge their biases borne from their limited personal experiences.

Please, tell me how you react when you attempt to share your insights with a group and they tell you (in essence) "F*** off, we know better"?

My feedback was intended to be helpful, not to "arrogantly dismiss your attempts to contribute"--as you sharply state. If you intend to keep your listeners 'engaged', then you may consider modifying the tone of some of your messages. Personally, I often find your tone to be belittling and arrogant, if not a bit narcissistic. And despite what you may think, I want to hear about your experiences so that I might, from those contributions, glean some novel insight as I approach this daunting task of graduate study.

How sad for me..you say? hmmm...perhaps on some microscopic level. On the whole I feel fortunate and grateful to have found this group as it has helped me navigate throughout this process. All of the time, attention and PMs I've received from members...I feel tremendous gratitude for providing to me a roadmap. I intend to return the favor in time.