How much does pedigree matter for top residencies?

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mariambaby3

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How much does the prestige of the applicant's medical school matter when applying to highly competitive residencies (Derm, Plastics, ENT, etc...) at very desirable locations?

Would the top 20 research US News and Report schools all considered to be on the same playing field for these residency programs? Or are there likely to be further subdivisions (top 10, top 5, etc...)?
 
mariambaby3 said:
How much does the prestige of the applicant's medical school matter when applying to highly competitive residencies (Derm, Plastics, ENT, etc...) at very desirable locations?

Would the top 20 research US News and Report schools all considered to be on the same playing field for these residency programs? Or are there likely to be further subdivisions (top 10, top 5, etc...)?
Click to expand...

I really doubt it. On the other hand, if you have the opportunity to go to Harvard/Hopkins/Stanford, you should probably do that.

Good luck!
 
Ace-Co-A said:
I really doubt it. On the other hand, if you have the opportunity to go to Harvard/Hopkins/Stanford, you should probably do that.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
talinnlove said:
"Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" was listed as the 23rd most influential factor (out of 35) in residency programs' decision to interview candidates in 2012. In other words, not super important compared to things like Step 1 score and LORs.

All the data and info on specific specialties here:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf
Click to expand...
This seems to be the consensus (at least among premeds) on SDN. And yet, when I look at the list of current residents on some of these prestigious residency programs' websites, I see very very few students not from top 20 med schools. So I would tend to think pedigree matters more than people want to admit. It's much easier to gloss over a red flag or two when you're interviewing a Harvard student...
 
How much of a difference is there between the best, Harvard, and the worst schools, NYU and Mt. Sinai, on that list?
 
cyberchicken001 said:
This seems to be the consensus (at least among premeds) on SDN. And yet, when I look at the list of current residents on some of these prestigious residency programs' websites, I see very very few students not from top 20 med schools. So I would tend to think pedigree matters more than people want to admit. It's much easier to gloss over a red flag or two when you're interviewing a Harvard student...
Click to expand...

I think this has to do with the fact that places like Harvard admit people who are so motivated that they're going to ace their step 1, do some big research projects, and graduate at the top of their class no matter what school they attend. Those highly motivated people will stand a better shot at getting those really competitive residencies.
 
M.MD said:
I think this has to do with the fact that places like Harvard admit people who are so motivated that they're going to ace their step 1, do some big research projects, and graduate at the top of their class no matter what school they attend. Those highly motivated people will stand a better shot at getting those really competitive residencies.
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I agree. I think the self selection factor is something that's often overlooked. People at top schools are going to have done exceptionally well in the past and are going to continue to do exceptionally well. It's not because they are from Harvard, etc, it's because being at Harvard etc is a byproduct of their efforts which will continue to lead them to success.
 
What about schools like UCSF, which have average STEP scores below many mid-tier schools, yet still produce an incredible match list? I don't think the "quality of student" differences between medical schools of different tiers are as large as some people here perceive.
 
From @chronicidal 's blog:
http://anastomosed.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/the-importance-of-medical-school-choice/
Oh I see that @talinnlove posted something similar.
I thinking that schools with a research
requirement tend to have strong match lists overall. But a student from a non-research heavy institution can still take the initiative for the more competitive programs. Obviously, other factors such as step 1, clinical grades, LOR's are factored in.

Edit: also agree about the self-selection factor.
 
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I think another factor that may be overlooked are LORs. Higher ranked schools tend to attract more prominent doctors in their respective fields, whose LORs can carry more weight once matching for residency.
 
M.MD said:
I think this has to do with the fact that places like Harvard admit people who are so motivated that they're going to ace their step 1, do some big research projects, and graduate at the top of their class no matter what school they attend. Those highly motivated people will stand a better shot at getting those really competitive residencies.
Click to expand...
Fair point. :bow:
 
Also, some schools that are not in the "top 20" have strong departments in competitive specialities. For ortho, this is the case with Jefferson, Iowa, and Rush. The strength of these departments is likely an advantage for the students at these schools when it comes to matching.
 
talinnlove said:
"Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" was listed as the 23rd most influential factor (out of 35) in residency programs' decision to interview candidates in 2012. In other words, not super important compared to things like Step 1 score and LORs.

All the data and info on specific specialties here:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf
Click to expand...

This is ridiculous. Lets take the 'most influential factors' for residency PDs survey that spanned all training programs and pretend those factors apply in the same ranking when looking at the 'cream of the crop' competitive residencies. 🙄

I work at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, with a research group for one of the ROAD specialties. Our dept got emailed a list of the 7 incoming residents for the program this year:
4 from Harvard
1 from top 15
1 from top 25
1 MD PhD (top 35)


Just sayin. But Harvard is known to eat their young.
 
masaraksh said:
This is ridiculous. Lets take the 'most influential factors' for residency PDs survey that spanned all training programs and pretend those factors apply in the same ranking when looking at the 'cream of the crop' competitive residencies. 🙄

I work at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, with a research group for one of the ROAD specialties. Our dept got emailed a list of the 7 incoming residents for the program this year:
4 from Harvard
1 from top 15
1 from top 25
1 MD PhD (top 35)


Just sayin. But Harvard is known to eat their young.
Click to expand...

I guess we can present as many anecdotal pieces of evidence as we want: I googled the first prestigious-sounding residency that came to mind, Wash U plastics. Currently, they have a resident from Harvard and a resident from a completely unranked school (SUNY Downstate) and just about everything else in between. It appears as if they all ended up in the same residency despite attending differently-ranked undergraduate medical programs.

All in all, I think real data are more helpful than stories about "my cousin who went to JHU med and got accepted to JHU anesthesia" for people looking for information relevant to their own applications.
 
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masaraksh said:
This is ridiculous. Lets take the 'most influential factors' for residency PDs survey that spanned all training programs and pretend those factors apply in the same ranking when looking at the 'cream of the crop' competitive residencies. 🙄

I work at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, with a research group for one of the ROAD specialties. Our dept got emailed a list of the 7 incoming residents for the program this year:
4 from Harvard
1 from top 15
1 from top 25
1 MD PhD (top 35)


Just sayin. But Harvard is known to eat their young.
Click to expand...

It is the same at super competitive residencies in super competitive fields. You are at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, it follows that a decent number of residents are going to come from within the same institution. Never mind that the top schools tend to collect some of the better students across the board. Name of school matters, but very little compared to the rest of your application. The list that you posted would indicate the OPPOSITE of you what you are claiming. 4 internal candidates and 3 from outside the top 10. Name seems to matter next to nothing.

Also, ROAD =! super competitive.
 
I have been told in the process of preparing for residency that coming from my school will be a "big help" when I come to apply. This has been said by people in a few different specialties. How much does it matter? Who knows, but it definitely seems to have some kind of vague effect.

At the end of the day, though, a strong applicant is a strong applicant. If you performed well in med school and have an impressive resume, then you have nothing to worry about - "top" school or no. There are plenty of people from all sorts of institutions in residency programs at "top" programs. Going to a "top" school doesn't mean you're in automatic in if you're otherwise unimpressive.
 
masaraksh said:
This is ridiculous. Lets take the 'most influential factors' for residency PDs survey that spanned all training programs and pretend those factors apply in the same ranking when looking at the 'cream of the crop' competitive residencies. 🙄

I work at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, with a research group for one of the ROAD specialties. Our dept got emailed a list of the 7 incoming residents for the program this year:
4 from Harvard
1 from top 15
1 from top 25
1 MD PhD (top 35)

Just sayin. But Harvard is known to nurture their young.
Click to expand...

ftfy. Eat their young usually means chewing them up and spitting them out.
 
Well I just made the decision to go with a top 20 school over a top 10 school so hopefully I didn't screw myself over.

Made this decision purely based on fit. And plus, I was told throughout the whole cycle that top 30 schools all essentially provide equally competent medical education and produce similar types of MD's with regards to caliber. Both of the schools I chose had the same avg mcat and avg gpa of accepted/matriculating students.

I mean you wouldn't think an MD from Emory or Mayo didn't have a shot at a strong residency just because they're ranked below 20 (from what I remember).
 
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TotalDomination said:
Well I just made the decision to go with a top 20 school over a top 10 school so hopefully I didn't screw myself over.

Made this decision purely based on fit. And plus, I was told throughout the whole cycle that top 30 schools all essentially provide equally competent medical education and produce similar types of MD's with regards to caliber. Both of the schools I chose had the same avg mcat and avg gpa of accepted/matriculating students.

I mean you wouldn't think an MD from Emory or Mayo didn't have a shot at a strong residency just because they're ranked below 20 (from what I remember).
Click to expand...
Ranked below 20 = worst of the worst. You just wrecked your future...



Obvious sarcasm. Congrats on finding a good fit!!
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
Ranked below 20 = worst of the worst. You just wrecked your future...



Obvious sarcasm. Congrats on finding a good fit!!
Click to expand...

Well I was addressing previous posters' claim that there was a full gradient within the top 20 with regards to prestige. Where does that put equally excellent programs ranked just below 20? I personally believe it's hard to rank most of the top 30 schools, which is why I consider them equivalent. And even then, between 30 and 31 is a blurry cut-off.

Thanks, I'm excited to start school!!
 
Guessing that you'll be starting ohsu or something like that since you keep talking about "top 30" when literally no one else says that ever
 
When you guys say Top X school, what ranking are you referring to?
 
From my experience having just went through the process for a competitive specialty and being from a low tier MD school, prestige/recognition value of your med school definitely matters, but it's much more complicated than that. As mentioned above, some of the most competitive residencies in a certain specialty are not necessarily where you would think they are, but the importance of geographic bias can not be understated, at least in the specialty I matched into. There are also other nuances to take into account that are not always readily apparent particularly to people on the outside - a certain top tier residency program in my state (generally) doesn't interview med students from other medical schools in the state.
 
I also want to say that often more prestigious schools are located in not the most desirable locations and as a result many great physicians teach at less prestigious programs which are located in places they would rather live.
 
lol I'm not. If you read above I said I was attending a school that was ranked between 10 and 20. I've heard the top 30 multiple times, actually.

also of note: I have very little knowledge of what factors go into matching into top residencies. I'm discussing this in theory.
 
Dwan said:
What about schools like UCSF, which have average STEP scores below many mid-tier schools, yet still produce an incredible match list? I don't think the "quality of student" differences between medical schools of different tiers are as large as some people here perceive.
Click to expand...

As usual economics holds the answers:

-network effects
-signaling effects
 
TotalDomination said:
lol I'm not. If you read above I said I was attending a school that was ranked between 10 and 20. I've heard the top 30 multiple times, actually.

also of note: I have very little knowledge of what factors go into matching into top residencies. I'm discussing this in theory.
Click to expand...
I guess my sarcasm would have been more appropriate to your post if I had said "below top 10 = doom."
Anyway, I've seen "top 40" used on orthogate.
 
allenlchs said:
I also want to say that often more prestigious schools are located in not the most desirable locations and as a result many great physicians teach at less prestigious programs which are located in places they would rather live.
Click to expand...

This quote is ridiculous.

On the whole, I'd say the more prestigious training programs (med schools and residency) lean towards being located in somewhat more desirable locations. I exclude the carribean from my analysis.
 
allenlchs said:
I also want to say that often more prestigious schools are located in not the most desirable locations and as a result many great physicians teach at less prestigious programs which are located in places they would rather live.
Click to expand...
New York Examples:
NYU and NYU-HJD-very desirable locations
Cornell/HSS/MSK- very desirable location
Sinai- right on Central Park, although the overall area is not as nice as the above 2

California:
UCLA- Westwood is nice
UCSD- resort
Stanford- breathtaking
(Don't know much about the areas around UCSF and UC-Davis)

Midwest:
Northwestern is supposed to be in a really nice area.
Wash U- in a nicer part of St. Louis (Central West End)

South:
Baylor and the TMC seem to be in a nice enough area.
Vanderbilt: sadly, I've never been to Nashville, but heard it's a beautiful campus/area

Can you provide more than 7 examples that support your argument?
 
Three excellent schools (that I consider top tier) that are in sucky areas:
Case in Cleveland, Duke in Durham, Yale in New Haven

I personally love Hyde Park but Pritzker isn't in the most amazing place either. It's definitely no stanford

If you consider Brown (providence) and Dartmouth (Hanover) as desirable schools , they are also in not so desirable locations (to me).
 
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TotalDomination said:
Three excellent schools (that I consider top tier) that are in sucky areas:
Case in Cleveland, Duke in Durham, Yale in New Haven

I personally love Hyde Park but Pritzker isn't in the most amazing place either. It's definitely no stanford

If you consider Brown (providence) and Dartmouth (Hanover) as desirable schools , they are also in not so desirable locations (to me).
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Are you kidding me?!! Cleveland is a jewel!
Also, Hopkins, Penn, and Columbia are not in the most desirable areas.
I really don't know what this ratio is. It was nice to get some examples though.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
Are you kidding me?!! Cleveland is a jewel!
Also, Hopkins, Penn, and Columbia are not in the most desirable areas.
I really don't know what this ratio is. It was nice to get some examples though.
Click to expand...

You could also add in WashU (I would disagree, but I know a lot of people feel that way about St. Louis)
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
Are you kidding me?!! Cleveland is a jewel!
Also, Hopkins, Penn, and Columbia are not in the most desirable areas.
I really don't know what this ratio is. It was nice to get some examples though.
Click to expand...


Really? When I went there for my interview I was just shocked. The whole place was frozen over though so I might not have seen it at it's best. I also didn't really explore much. Thanks for correcting me! 🙂
 
allenlchs said:
I also want to say that often more prestigious schools are located in not the most desirable locations and as a result many great physicians teach at less prestigious programs which are located in places they would rather live.
Click to expand...
The"best" medical schools tend to be located within walking distance of a jail, "youth facility," county hospital or other government facility. If there is no concertina wire in sight, you have a lot of driving to get to a patient who will let you learn how to be a doctor!
 
gyngyn said:
The"best" medical schools tend to be located within walking distance of a jail, "youth facility," county hospital or other government facility. If there is no concertina wire in sight, you have a lot of driving to get to a patient who will let you learn how to be a doctor!
Click to expand...
I guess USC easily fits the criteria of a "best" med school.
 
I'm not going to go over any specific schools. There are many doctors here in FL who moved here from up North for various reasons. One of them is because they don't want to live in the cold anymore ( I don't know if this is a unique situation with my state or it happens in other states in the South). Most FL med schools are not ranked highly nationwide but my point was that there are still a lot of great faculty here who were educated at highly ranked programs. However, I'm sure there are many more physicians who stay at all of the above mentioned places, my main point was to say that if someone can't get an acceptance to a highly ranked program, it really doesn't mean that they won't get a great education at other places and won't get into a competitive residency program, as it has been already mentioned that the medical school one graduates from is nowhere on the list of the most import factors for residency matching.
 
gyngyn said:
I'm told that South Carolina is a lovely state, though!
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You know I was referring to Keck and LA County Hospital-lol.

Btw, in terms of NYC, NYU has the advantage of being in an excellent neighborhood with a famous county hospital (Bellevue) just a few blocks away.
 
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