how much does reputation matter for matching?

[not a dvr user]

I was wondering, generally speaking, how much does the reputation of a medical school matter in determining how attractive a candidate you are to residency programs? I'm a junior undergrad right now just starting to really seriously think about where I might want to apply/go to med school, and I figured sdn would give me a straighter answer than my college's premed advisor. I ask because I'd rather NOT pick a school based on reputation. I did that for undergrad, and I'd definitely say I regret the decision... I transferred to Cornell from Case Western, and could have been pulling a 4.0 easy and been doing fun things, whereas here I mostly hole up in the library doing work. Any advice would be much appreciated.

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[RainerMaria]

According to this 2008 NBME survey of residency directors, coming from a "highly regarded institution" was relatively unimportant (4th/5th least) for interview selection. Being from an accredited institution was more important, and most important were clerkship grades and MSPE. Not too surprising: reputation counts but doesn't predict success like board scores and grades.

Report here:
www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

 

[djyujin]

Out of curiosity, which library? Yeah Cornell is a rough place to be premed...

 

[SoCuteMD]

I think "name" which most pre-meds associate with reputation matters very little except in some uber-competitive fields and programs. What does seem to have an impact is whether previous graduates of your school have gone to that residency program and how they've done while they were there. This isn't something it's easy to assess, however.

 

[houstoncfh]

In general, I'd say it doesn't matter too much. Medical education is essentially the same regardless of where you go to school. That said, if you're interested in very competitive specialties, I think reputation does play some role (though you will only help your chances by doing well wherever you go).

As for less competitive specialties, I go to a mid-tier state school that regionally is well respected. People from my school have no problem interviewing anywhere except for MGH, the Brigham, UCSF. I have a friend who goes to a top 15 school, who was not AOA, who interviewed everywhere he applied, including programs like I just mentioned.

Overall, I'd say it's better to be excellent than to come from a name brand school. That said, if you can be excellent at a name brand school, that's to your advantage.

 

[bcat85]

Overall, I'd say it's better to be excellent than to come from a name brand school. That said, if you can be excellent at a name brand school, that's to your advantage.

Word. This is absolutely right. Don't fret about the school you get into. Really... don't do it. Just do your best once you get in. I would be willing to bet that a 250+ step 1 score with honors in a ton of stuff from no-name state will pick up a residency spot over an average JHU or UCSF grad.

 

[drizzt3117]

Word. This is absolutely right. Don't fret about the school you get into. Really... don't do it. Just do your best once you get in. I would be willing to bet that a 250+ step 1 score with honors in a ton of stuff from no-name state will pick up a residency spot over an average JHU or UCSF grad.

You're also assuming the same person would do worse on the boards while attending HMS or JHU which is probably not the case, since they're the same individual. HMS is true P/F too so that wouldn't really be a concern. Clearly for any given person attending a school with a higher reputation will be an advantage with all else equal.

 

[wapwap]

I work in an office neighboring the director of residency for internal med at a Univ Cal Med Center. Ive noticed that AOA matters the most, while school reputation came in a close second.

 

[kingofthehill]

I work in an office neighboring the director of residency for internal med at a Univ Cal Med Center. Ive noticed that AOA matters the most, while school reputation came in a close second.

I've heard that the name of the school you attend matters little for virtually all residency programs. I have also heard that if you are going the MD/PhD route that name matters a little more because of the PhD.

 

[Law2Doc]

I work in an office neighboring the director of residency for internal med at a Univ Cal Med Center. Ive noticed that AOA matters the most, while school reputation came in a close second.

ROFL. There is a pretty clear hierarchy. AOA is high on the list, but comes in after things like your Step 1 score and evals. School name/reputation is very low on the list, and usually doesn't play a significant role. You are way off base if you are listing those factors #1 and #2.

 

[wapwap]

i am just stating my experience with the residency director at this center, im sure its diff for other programs but here they value the name alot

 

[Law2Doc]

... Clearly for any given person attending a school with a higher reputation will be an advantage with all else equal.

All else is NEVER equal. If you end up in a situation where all else is equal, it means you didn't do a good enough job proving yourself in an away rotation. This topic has been done to death. The only place school name comes in high on the list of importance is on this pre-allo board. Annual polls of program directors don't put it high on the list and it isn't that high on the list of most med students who have gone through the process. This is a very individual effort based system. The single most important factor, coming from a US allo school, is going to be your Step 1 score. And guess what? This is a national test and with the same effort and memory you are going to score about the same coming from any school. Other big factors are things like core rotation evaluations (which are dependent to a significant degree on your individual performance), how you do on an away rotation (which will be at a school different from your home school), and then things like research, LORs, AOA, etc, which really aren't school dependent. If you get through this whole hierarchy of things and "all else is [still] equal", then you haven't done your job. Premeds like the idea of thinking that if they get into a top medical school they are "set". But in fact, they have really just reached base camp and the mountain lies ahead. Whether the base camp is at X elevation or a few feet higher isn't going to make a bit of difference -- the real height lies ahead and is basically equally attainable from any US allo starting point.

Now to be fair, the top schools do get to select folks with slightly better stats and credentials out of college, and so those individuals that continue this trend in med school do often put up the stats necessary to obtain very competitive things. But you are kidding yourself if you think this person with the 260 on Step 1 and straight honors wouldn't do just as well coming from his state school as he would from the top school. He is still himself and his stats will likely occur regardless of where he attends. So that is one (of many) reasons why perhaps match lists can be misleading; if the top school takes the top applicant and he remains a top student on national exams, etc, he goes to a top place. You never get to see the obvious truth that had he gone to a lesser US allo school and continued to be a top student on national exams he would still end up in the same place. So to some extent this game is really won and lost on admissions.
But don't get sucked into an "all else being equal" argument. It never ever happens, and if it does, it means the better applicant (and there always is a better -- individuals are unique like snowflakes) didn't do enough to show he was better, particularly in an away rotation.

 

[Law2Doc]

i am just stating my experience with the residency director at this center, im sure its diff for other programs but here they value the name alot

Then they are either lying to you or to the NRMP -- see the survey cited above. I'm betting it's to you.

I'm not saying there are not valid reasons to pick a brand name school -- most have better facilities, better research opportunities, and other intangibles. I'm just saying that the game winning home run folks in pre-allo seem to think it is misses the mark. You aren't set for life just by getting in. You have to prove yourself every step of the way in med school and beyond in this career.

 

[Preme]

But you are kidding yourself if you think this person with the 260 on Step 1 and straight honors wouldn't do just as well coming from his state school as he would from the top school. He is still himself and his stats will likely occur regardless of where he attends. So that is one (of many) reasons why perhaps match lists can be misleading; if the top school takes the top applicant and he remains a top student on national exams, etc, he goes to a top place.

The fact that a 260 Step I with straight honors at their state school will do very well is definitely true. The problem is the name of your medical school matters more the lower your class rank and step I score are. If you can go to your state school and be that top student, then you will do just as well as anyone. However, a lot of people who go to the state school have this same mentality. There are a lot of smart people at the "state" school and you can't guarentee that you will be one of them. Somebody with the same Step I score and middle of the class rank at a Harvard versus your state school will definitely do better at the higher reputation school. Somebody who is 260 Step I and AOA at your state school will do better than somebody 235 Step I and middle of the class at a "name brand" institution. The question is will your class rank be better at your state school than the higher reputation place.

 

[virusgirl]

The fact that a 260 Step I with straight honors at their state school will do very well is definitely true. The problem is the name of your medical school matters more the lower your class rank and step I score are. If you can go to your state school and be that top student, then you will do just as well as anyone. However, a lot of people who go to the state school have this same mentality. There are a lot of smart people at the "state" school and you can't guarentee that you will be one of them. Somebody with the same Step I score and middle of the class rank at a Harvard versus your state school will definitely do better at the higher reputation school. Somebody who is 260 Step I and AOA at your state school will do better than somebody 235 Step I and middle of the class at a "name brand" institution. The question is will your class rank be better at your state school than the higher reputation place.

I have no evidence to support this, but I suspect that your class rank will be approximately the same at any medical school.

The reason for this is the fact that students who are accepted to medical school, be it Harvard or the University of Alabama, represent an extremely small, select, intelligent group of people. I don't think that Harvard students are significantly more intelligent than UAB students; while avg GPA is certainly a bit higher, the difference between a 3.6 and a 3.8 really is not that big -- a couple of B's instead of A's. So, if the intellectual capacity of students at all med schools is approximately equal, then I think one's class rank would be fairly consistent regardless of where one ended up. Just my hunch.

Law2Doc, I think it's time to make a sticky, to the effect of:

1.) School reputation has very little/no bearing on residency placement
2.) No, you really can't glean any meaningful information from match lists.

 

[redlight]

yes prestige is more or less at the middle or bottom of the totem pole for residencies.. so it's only a factor when you need it the most

(when you are a competitive applicant and need something to edge out those at lower ranked schools)

 

[drizzt3117]

IMO there's a pretty significant difference in the quality of applicants/students at different schools, and many of those are due to goals. There are numerous people who are interested in non-competitive residencies and are only willing to do what is necessary to get into a program of their choice in FM, Peds, etc. That happens a bit more often at state schools who put large percentages of their grads into primary care than a top Ivy like Harvard where the vast majority of grads specialize.

Law2Doc, I think it's time to make a sticky, to the effect of:

1.) School reputation has very little/no bearing on residency placement
2.) No, you really can't glean any meaningful information from match lists.

Just keep on believing that

 

[redlight]

also, why do people like to compare applicants from highly and lowly ranked schools and say "all things equal?"

why not compare YOU at top vs YOU at bottom school.. which school do you think would give you the better chancing of matching into x residency?

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

While I agree that school name doesn't usually rank high on the list of PD preferences, I actually have a case where it did.

I was doing an audition rotation with a student from an ivy league school that was also interested in the program. Grade-wise we were equal, I did better on boards, and I had great SLORs from great academic places. I'm sure she had great SLORs too considering the school she was from. In all honesty, she was pretty much middle of the road when it came to clinical stuff. Nothing spectacular. Residents had mixed feelings about her. They loved me, and I know this because they still call me to go out. She never wanted to work weekends and was constantly changing her schedule, to which I offered to cover her shifts and work pretty much every weekend. I never missed a lecture, she missed a few because her boyfriend was in town.

Guess who got the residency spot over me.
Politics SUCK

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Some published survey put Med school reputation as the 9th most important factor, actually ahead of research experience.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

So basically, people who are going to top 20 schools will tell you its important...and people who go to their state schools will tell you its not so important.

Look at the facts (see report above) and make up your own mind how important it is.

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

So basically, people who are going to top 20 schools will tell you its important...and people who go to their state schools will tell you its not so important.

Look at the facts (see report above) and make up your own mind how important it is.

We also have to consider that these reports are giving overall data and that specific programs will have varying mileage, hence anecdotal evidence that seems to vary with the "data". It's conceivable that at many programs reputation is highly sought after, and at many more programs it is not. Also, self-report data has some flaws and maynot accurately reflect actual decision making.

 

[Caprica6]

I think it depends on the speciality. If you want to go into neurosurgery, which requires a research year as a resident, you probably better have research experience/publications when applying for residencies. In this case you would probably want to go to a school that has great research opportunities and funding, these tend to be top 40 schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

So basically, people who are going to top 20 schools will tell you its important...and people who go to their state schools will tell you its not so important.

Look at the facts (see report above) and make up your own mind how important it is.

Exactly. And its less about who attended where and more about where you are in the process. Folks in pre-allo put far more weight on prestige than pople further along. Wonder why...

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I think it depends on the speciality. If you want to go into neurosurgery, which requires a research year as a resident, you probably better have research experience/publications when applying for residencies. In this case you would probably want to go to a school that has great research opportunities and funding, these tend to be top 40 schools.

But the better question is...why would anyone ever want to go into neurosurgery?

 

[redlight]

So basically, people who are going to top 20 schools will tell you its important...and people who go to their state schools will tell you its not so important.

Look at the facts (see report above) and make up your own mind how important it is.

unless you are one of the lucky ones instate at ucsf, michigan, baylor, ucla, ucsd, or oos or at a top private uni w/ scholarship, etc.

then you're just livin the life haha

 

[Siverhideo1985]

unless you are one of the lucky ones instate at ucsf, michigan, baylor, ucla, ucsd, or oos or at a top private uni w/ scholarship, etc.

then you're just livin the life haha

Yea but those people aren't humans...so they shouldn't count

 

[guestdoc]

It matters a ton, not at all, somewhere in between, and you're crazy for even thinking about it. Those are the answers you will get.

Personally, I think that it is a variable factor; how big of a factor depends on where you are applying, what specialty, and how the rest of your app looks. In the end, the effect of what med school you come from could be minuscule (or non-existent) or it could hold some sway.

Case by case basis! Average statistics don't necessarily apply to each new person as there are always so many variables!

 

[redlight]

.

 

[Preme]

I have no evidence to support this, but I suspect that your class rank will be approximately the same at any medical school.

Exactly, which is why being middle of the class at a top medical school will serve you better than being middle of the class at your state school if you are applying to competitive fields. If you will be miserable at the higher ranked school, then don't go because you won;t do as well. If you are indifferent, however, then go to the better school. It will help somewhat. Grades, boards, letters, publications are more important but at the end of the day residency directors are human too and they like to see the name "Harvard" in the names of their incoming residents. It is not insignificant.

 

[chiz2kul]

Exactly. And its less about who attended where and more about where you are in the process. Folks in pre-allo put far more weight on prestige than pople further along. Wonder why...

But on a related note, how important is research during med school to get into your desired residency? I'm having to choose btw a school that requires research n one that doesnt, but i'm not a huge research fan by any means..

 

[lord_jeebus]

I broke 260 on the boards, got a good mix of honors and near honors (at a school where honors is capped at the top 15%), and honored a visiting rotation at arguably the top program in my field of choice. My school was "top 20" - not too shabby (but I was shown a form used for scoring applicants at one of my interviews; med school was rated on a 5 point scale and my school was a mere 3/5).

I also know people who were not near the top of their class but went to "top" schools (Harvard, Stanford, UCSF...).

Guess who got more interviews. They did.

Guess what schools matched a disproportionate number of people at my #1 choice. Their schools.

People who care about prestige tend to take faculty positions at places with prestige, where they select their replacements and so on. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, and if you want to be at one of those program, prestige counts. I am sure there are many great programs in all fields that don't care about med school prestige.

Obviously there are many confounding factors and perhaps I just made a bad impression at some point in the process. Nonetheless if I had the option to trade 30 or 40 USMLE points for a med school spot at Harvard or Stanford, I would take it, no question.

I did match at my #2 (and it probably would have been #2 even if I got interviews everywhere), so perhaps I shouldn't complain too much.

 

[lord_jeebus]

But on a related note, how important is research during med school to get into your desired residency? I'm having to choose btw a school that requires research n one that doesnt, but i'm not a huge research fan by any means..

Depends greatly on the specialty

Radiation oncology? You better have done research.

Anesthesiology? Not expected at all, although it is always a plus.

 

[coralfangs]

I've heard the opposite.
This is what the director of the grad education at the hospital I worked at told me (a top hospital, quite selective) when I asked her for advices on choosing which school to go to. No **** that Step 1 score is important but reputation does come into play to some extent (more like a top tier vs 2nd tier vs 3rd tier kinda thing)
See, I rather believe the director than some random guy on a forum who came from a 3rd tier med school believing that he would have the same shot of getting into Johnnys as an average student from Harvard.

 

[RoadRunner17]

Finally nice to hear the other side of the argument for once. But yes, not all of us can go to the schools that rate among the most prestigious. Prestige by definition... well, yeah. Its good that it's not a huge factor, however.

 

[VMSmith]

I think it matters at least to the extent that prestigious schools tend to be known quantities - programs know (or assume) more about the caliber of training at the school as well as the "average" student coming from it.

Now, if you go to a less prestigious school that is known by a program director, whether because the PD went to the school, knows people at the school, or has previously taken residents from the school, then I think the prestige factor has less of an impact.

I also agree that people at prestigious programs tend to be people who chose to be there at least in part because of the prestige factor, and are probably at least somewhat influenced by prestige.

 

[Law2Doc]

Exactly, which is why being middle of the class at a top medical school will serve you better than being middle of the class at your state school if you are applying to competitive fields. If you will be miserable at the higher ranked school, then don't go because you won;t do as well. If you are indifferent, however, then go to the better school. It will help somewhat. Grades, boards, letters, publications are more important but at the end of the day residency directors are human too and they like to see the name "Harvard" in the names of their incoming residents. It is not insignificant.

No, see this is what I'm trying to say is bad premed thinking. The middle of the class (with middle of the road boards) is the middle of the class. The competitive fields get the folks who are better than this from ANY SCHOOL. That's part of the reason the boards are national and end up being the single most important factor in determining who gets the competitive residencies. The top folks with the top boards from ANY med school will have the option of competitive things. The bottom will not. Doesn't matter where we are talking about. You stink at a top place you smell as bad to residencies as if you stink at the bottom place. Middle of the class doesn't guarantee you anything.

Premeds understandably would like to believe that if they get into a top med school, they are set, even if they end up at the bottom of the class, or at least somewhere in the middle. Don't buy it. If you don't have the stats, you aren't getting a competitive residency. If you do, you probably will. It's really med school independent. Expect to have to work hard in med school regardless of where you attend, because you aren't at the finish line just by getting in, you are at the starting line. And the dude from the lower ranked school can easily take your spot -- at best you have a one or two step head start in what amounts to a marathon.

I'm not sure how you can look at the nrmp report above and yet still remain steadfast in your belief that prestige is so important.

 

[RainerMaria]

I'd be more inclined to believe a survey than anecdotal evidence (metaphorical to giving more scientific weight to a large household panel cohort study over single case reports). Yes there is interview bias, but not the selection bias you see in the "well my PI said..." stories. That said, I don't think it's an accident that Brigham gives 15 of its IM positions to HMS grads (though confounded by the fact that each one of them has saved 2.5 villages in Africa and holds a degree from Oxford). But at the end of the day, one man's US news number 2 school is another man's number 100. It seems to me that there are many opportunities to shine along the road, and if it's not residency, then fellowship.

 

[Law2Doc]

... That said, I don't think it's an accident that Brigham gives 15 of its IM positions to HMS grads....

Well, that assumes these 15 folks didn't have the board scores and other med school independent credentials, and relied on school prestige to get these spots. I suggest that they probably do have the stats, and also have the advantage of connections from rotations (much in the way that folks who do away rotations have connections. In which case it wouldn't be inconsistent with the suggestion that school name didn't really play into the mix.

 

[Danbo1957]

I've said this before:

If med-school reputation is important sometimes, then it is important.

 

[schnauzr]

This makes me wonder...
does doing your residency at a more "pretigious" program like Harvard or JHU or whatever help you get better jobs in the future?
And by better jobs, I mean higher wages.
Not that money is the most important factor, but I'm curious if there is a significant upside when you follow the prestige route.

Also, on another note,
I vaguely recall reading that unlike medical schools, the US residency programs vary quite significantly in terms of their clinical training.
How big are the discrepancies between the qualities of residency programs?
If student A does her training at a top residency program vs. the same student A does her training at a lower-ranked residency program, will that actually make a difference in terms of her clinical competency?

 

[amph119]

This makes me wonder...
does doing your residency at a more "pretigious" program like Harvard or JHU or whatever help you get better jobs in the future?
And by better jobs, I mean higher wages.
Not that money is the most important factor, but I'm curious if there is a significant upside when you follow the prestige route.

Also, on another note,
I vaguely recall reading that unlike medical schools, the US residency programs vary quite significantly in terms of their clinical training.
How big are the discrepancies between the qualities of residency programs?
If student A does her training at a top residency program vs. the same student A does her training at a lower-ranked residency program, will that actually make a difference in terms of her clinical competency?

Competency? Not necessarily. Competitiveness for the top jobs out there? Absolutely, 100%, resounding yes.

 

[drizzt3117]

This makes me wonder...
does doing your residency at a more "pretigious" program like Harvard or JHU or whatever help you get better jobs in the future?
And by better jobs, I mean higher wages.
Not that money is the most important factor, but I'm curious if there is a significant upside when you follow the prestige route.

My experience with this is that it does in some ways, but like other things that have been discussed, it depends much more on the person. My father runs a large private practice group (12+ specialists) and when they are looking to hire, they certainly pay attention to where someone was trained (and went to med school) but during the interview day, each one of the physicians in the group will talk to the candidate for 15-20 minutes and if any of them don't think they're a good fit, it might be a dealbreaker. He also calls each one of the references listed and talks to them for 15-20 minutes and that is one of the most important criteria he uses.

Also, on another note,
I vaguely recall reading that unlike medical schools, the US residency programs vary quite significantly in terms of their clinical training.
How big are the discrepancies between the qualities of residency programs?
If student A does her training at a top residency program vs. the same student A does her training at a lower-ranked residency program, will that actually make a difference in terms of her clinical competency?

I think there's definitely a difference between programs in terms of the quality of your training, especially at places with a large amount of fellows. At certain surgical training programs, residents operate more and earlier, in others, they get a lot more floor work. There's a big variation between programs, and this doesn't necessarily show up in the rankings.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

From my understanding, your chances of landing a big job are INDIVIDUALLY dependent. You can match into a big time residency in your field, but if you stink it up, your chances of your bosses helping you land a big job after residency will not be as great if your were highly respected by your bosses.

Look at this way:

Pre-med = you are learning the very basics of science (in sports, this means that you are learning what a cover 2 defense is and what a mike linebacker is, how to run a sweep, etc)

Medical school = you start to transition from high school to college. The standout football players in high school tend to be highly recruited and the less highly recruited players tend to play for their local school......this translates into, for medicine, playing against compeition that is at the same level as you...the standouts at this level are picked to play in the NFL......the top medical students go to the top residencies (in general)

Residency = a rookie in the NFL. The elite stand out and get paid the big bucks and the rest get paid the average. The elite are picked for rewards, given offers that no reasonable person would reject (bonuses, movie deals, etc).

Attending = a veteran NFL player. The top get paid the most.

Nope...the top go into academics, and the middle of the road ones get paid the most

 

[RoadRunner17]

Everyone needs to remember that your chances of matching into a residency that is located in the area where you go to medical school is greater than getting a residency on the other side of the country. That's just the way it is. At my local Big Ten medical school, most medical students match into a residency in the Midwest area (the Twin Cities, Mayo, Milwaukee, Madison, St. Louis, Chicago, etc). There are always a few that match in the western states and a few that go to the N.E. Very seldom does one match into the S.E. from this school...there really aren't that many that match into the S.W. either.

Why do you think it is this way?

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Also, on another note,
I vaguely recall reading that unlike medical schools, the US residency programs vary quite significantly in terms of their clinical training.
How big are the discrepancies between the qualities of residency programs?
If student A does her training at a top residency program vs. the same student A does her training at a lower-ranked residency program, will that actually make a difference in terms of her clinical competency?

Not really an issue of competency - most people who come out of a residency will be competent. But different residencies have different facilities, better or worse teaching faculty, encourage more or less research, get their residents presenting at the various national conventions, and have different lifestyle concerns, treat residents differently (benign vs malignant) etc. So there is a basis to pick better from worse.

 

[Law2Doc]

This makes me wonder...
does doing your residency at a more "pretigious" program like Harvard or JHU or whatever help you get better jobs in the future?...

Prestige in residency isn't linked to the med school affiliate's rank. The hierarchy in each specialty is different, and many big name schools have mediocre residencies in a number of fields. So a specific top med school name may be meaningless in a given specialty, be totally malignant in another, and be a powerhouse in a third. No place is great in everything. So don't get excited about a name unless you also know they are good in a particular specialty. Very frequently the best residency in a specialty is a hospital program not affiliated with a top ranked med school.

That being said, if you go to a place that is regarded as a top program for the specialty, there are generally practices in that region that do recruit from such program, and it looks good on your resume for others; the connections at your residency also can be helpful in landing jobs. But no, you probably don't make more in terms of salary. The average is probably much less, because more people go from the top programs to academia, which pays less.

 

[bcat85]

I have no evidence to support this, but I suspect that your class rank will be approximately the same at any medical school.

The reason for this is the fact that students who are accepted to medical school, be it Harvard or the University of Alabama, represent an extremely small, select, intelligent group of people. I don't think that Harvard students are significantly more intelligent than UAB students; while avg GPA is certainly a bit higher, the difference between a 3.6 and a 3.8 really is not that big -- a couple of B's instead of A's. So, if the intellectual capacity of students at all med schools is approximately equal, then I think one's class rank would be fairly consistent regardless of where one ended up. Just my hunch.

Law2Doc, I think it's time to make a sticky, to the effect of:

1.) School reputation has very little/no bearing on residency placement
2.) No, you really can't glean any meaningful information from match lists.

I agree with you. I think that one of the major reasons for this is that, ironically, the criteria that medical schools use to select students is often pretty unrelated to their ability to perform well in medical school. While I will agree that MCAT does in fact correlate (marginally) to Step 1 score, I think that most of the horse and pony show that is the admissions process is just that... a show. Whether you spent your whole summer drinking beer and fishing or saving dying babies in africa really truly does not make a tiny bit of difference in determining your academic potential for performance in medical school. And whether you shadowed a neurosurgeon for 12,000,000 hours or just went out with your primary care doc a couple times probably doesn't make much of a difference either, but these things are what primarily distinguishes a 3.8/36 student who ends up at his/her state school and a 3.8/36 student who ends up at harvard.

 

[Law2Doc]

I agree with you. I think that one of the major reasons for this is that, ironically, the criteria that medical schools use to select students is often pretty unrelated to their ability to perform well in medical school. While I will agree that MCAT does in fact correlate (marginally) to Step 1 score, I think that most of the horse and pony show that is the admissions process is just that... a show. Whether you spent your whole summer drinking beer and fishing or saving dying babies in africa really truly does not make a tiny bit of difference in determining your academic potential for performance in medical school. And whether you shadowed a neurosurgeon for 12,000,000 hours or just went out with your primary care doc a couple times probably doesn't make much of a difference either, but these things are what primarily distinguishes a 3.8/36 student who ends up at his/her state school and a 3.8/36 student who ends up at harvard.

agree as well.

 

[Excelsius]

While I agree that school name doesn't usually rank high on the list of PD preferences, I actually have a case where it did.

I was doing an audition rotation with a student from an ivy league school that was also interested in the program. Grade-wise we were equal, I did better on boards, and I had great SLORs from great academic places. I'm sure she had great SLORs too considering the school she was from. In all honesty, she was pretty much middle of the road when it came to clinical stuff. Nothing spectacular. Residents had mixed feelings about her. They loved me, and I know this because they still call me to go out. She never wanted to work weekends and was constantly changing her schedule, to which I offered to cover her shifts and work pretty much every weekend. I never missed a lecture, she missed a few because her boyfriend was in town.

Guess who got the residency spot over me.
Politics SUCK

I broke 260 on the boards, got a good mix of honors and near honors (at a school where honors is capped at the top 15%), and honored a visiting rotation at arguably the top program in my field of choice. My school was "top 20" - not too shabby (but I was shown a form used for scoring applicants at one of my interviews; med school was rated on a 5 point scale and my school was a mere 3/5).

I also know people who were not near the top of their class but went to "top" schools (Harvard, Stanford, UCSF...).

Guess who got more interviews. They did.

Guess what schools matched a disproportionate number of people at my #1 choice. Their schools.

People who care about prestige tend to take faculty positions at places with prestige, where they select their replacements and so on. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, and if you want to be at one of those program, prestige counts. I am sure there are many great programs in all fields that don't care about med school prestige.

Obviously there are many confounding factors and perhaps I just made a bad impression at some point in the process. Nonetheless if I had the option to trade 30 or 40 USMLE points for a med school spot at Harvard or Stanford, I would take it, no question.

I did match at my #2 (and it probably would have been #2 even if I got interviews everywhere), so perhaps I shouldn't complain too much.

Exactly. This is why I don't like when people give absolutes about how prestige doesn't matter. I am actually a bit more concerned because I used to think that lord_jeebus was attending a low ranking medschool (I remember his old posts about residency), but top 20? So if top 20 is not good enough, what is? Top 10? Ivy?

In the end it all depends on your goals. If you want to do rural medicine, go to the cheapest school that accepts you. If you want a top spot in ROADs residencies and later job positions, go to the most prestigious school that will accept you. One SDN member turned down a full ride at Vandy to go to UCSF. I think that if you can't make this decision yourself and have to rely on third party information (almost none of whom are residents yet), then just stick to your simple goals and go to the cheapest school where you think you will be "happy" based on a single visit for interview.