How much impact does Shadowing and CE make on your applications?

[DaymanNightman]

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This is more of a curiosity question because recently I had just started to shadow and begin Clinical experience work, and apparently, I'm racking in a hefty amount of hours from the two.

I noticed that not many pre-med students exceed over 24-50 hours of shadowing or clinical experience. Of course, I know some say the general rule is "the more you do it, the better it is", and I agree, as I have begun shadowing 4 doctors (well in addition to 1 PA as well), and per average I rack up as much as 10-15 hours a week.

So hypothetically speaking, if I was to shadow 10-15 hours a week for a year (which would make it around 200-400 approximately) instead of just for the summer, would this really make a huge impact on med school applications? I know the PA schools say that this is the case (I'm also considering PA school at the same time), but they require almost 1000-5000 hours of clinical experience apparently, rather than shadowing.

Also, does the same apply to Clinical experience? I know usually CE is more important than shadowing, but does long hours also make a huge impact as well?

 

[aspiring20]

This is more of a curiosity question because recently I had just started to shadow and begin Clinical experience work, and apparently, I'm racking in a hefty amount of hours from the two.

I noticed that not many pre-med students exceed over 24-50 hours of shadowing or clinical experience. Of course, I know some say the general rule is "the more you do it, the better it is", and I agree, as I have begun shadowing 4 doctors (well in addition to 1 PA as well), and per average I rack up as much as 10-15 hours a week.

So hypothetically speaking, if I was to shadow 10-15 hours a week for a year (which would make it around 200-400 approximately) instead of just for the summer, would this really make a huge impact on med school applications? I know the PA schools say that this is the case (I'm also considering PA school at the same time), but they require almost 1000-5000 hours of clinical experience apparently, rather than shadowing.

Also, does the same apply to Clinical experience? I know usually CE is more important than shadowing, but does long hours also make a huge impact as well?

Clinical experiences (CE) usually means physician shadowing and hospital volunteering. and hospital volunteering is more important than physician shadowing.

1000-5000 hrs is overkill. most matriculants have around 150 hrs of hospital volunteering and perhaps 50 hrs of shadowing.

 

[Cynicalbrit]

Clinical experiences (CE) usually means physician shadowing and hospital volunteering. and hospital volunteering is more important than physician shadowing.

1000-5000 hrs is overkill. most matriculants have around 150 hrs of hospital volunteering and perhaps 50 hrs of shadowing.

I completely agree. While you should spend as much time volunteering as possible, excessive amounts of shadowing will probably do more harm than good. The problem is, shadowing is actually a pretty selfish thing to do. You aren't helping anyone, it's something you're doing for yourself. For this reason, schools want to see you do enough shadowing to get a good idea of what the profession is like, and then spend your time doing something more productive. The AdComs I've heard from have said that 40 hours of shadowing is usually enough, and more than 100 starts to become an issue.

 

[somethingdeep]

I completely agree. While you should spend as much time volunteering as possible, excessive amounts of shadowing will probably do more harm than good. The problem is, shadowing is actually a pretty selfish thing to do. You aren't helping anyone, it's something you're doing for yourself. For this reason, schools want to see you do enough shadowing to get a good idea of what the profession is like, and then spend your time doing something more productive. The AdComs I've heard from have said that 40 hours of shadowing is usually enough, and more than 100 starts to become an issue.

An "issue" because they worry you're inconveniencing the doctor(s) you're shadowing?

 

[Cynicalbrit]

An "issue" because they worry you're inconveniencing the doctor(s) you're shadowing?

Not really, it's more a matter of spending time in a way that benefits only yourself. When I say an issue, I don't mean that it's a red flag or anything, just that it's no longer a good thing.

 

[NickNaylor]

More important than the number of hours you've accumulated is how you talk about those experiences. That's where you really demonstrate that those [60-5000] hours was time well spent. Having 5000 hours and still failing to show that you have a well-developed understanding of what medicine is about would be useless to you from the perspective of admissions. Similarly, having "only" 50-100 hours of experience yet having a mature, thoughtful understanding of what medicine is and why you want to be in the profession would be a huge asset to your app.

Focus less on trying to achieve some arbitrary quantitative benchmark and more on learning about about the career and reflecting on your potential place in the profession.

Sent from my SGH-M919

 

[music2doc]

More important than the number of hours you've accumulated is how you talk about those experiences. That's where you really demonstrate that those [60-5000] hours was time well spent. Having 5000 hours and still failing to show that you have a well-developed understanding of what medicine is about would be useless to you from the perspective of admissions. Similarly, having "only" 50-100 hours of experience yet having a mature, thoughtful understanding of what medicine is and why you want to be in the profession would be a huge asset to your app.

Focus less on trying to achieve some arbitrary quantitative benchmark and more on learning about about the career and reflecting on your potential place in the profession.

Sent from my SGH-M919

This. Quantities don't really matter for shadowing time. For clinical experience, maybe a bit more (as in some schools say they expect 500 hours minimum and then expect you got a lot out of it).

 

[Epinephreus]

Not really, it's more a matter of spending time in a way that benefits only yourself. When I say an issue, I don't mean that it's a red flag or anything, just that it's no longer a good thing.

I do not think this is necessarily true. Some Pre-Meds establish strong connections with a physician they shadow, and as a result have a continuing long-term experience (for example once a week over a few months). This allows a student to get more out of an experience than if they had simply shadowed for a couple days. Even better, if the student contributed by speaking with patients, and the physician could testify on their behalf their people skills, this could make for a strong letter of rec.

 

[BecksTriad]

Clinical experiences (CE) usually means physician shadowing and hospital volunteering. and hospital volunteering is more important than physician shadowing.

1000-5000 hrs is overkill. most matriculants have around 150 hrs of hospital volunteering and perhaps 50 hrs of shadowing.

are you saying 1000-5000 is over kill strictly for shadowing? I would agree with that. However, I have about 1,000 hours of volunteering on my app (including clinical and non-clinical). I think if volunteering is something your truly passionate about no amount is overkill.

 

[music2doc]

What schools are you aware of that do this?

OHSU, CUSOM at a minimum. This is the "Sondheimer Rule" by the AAMC's Sr. Medical Director of Medical Education (Henry Sondheimer, MD, former Dean, CUSOM). I have little doubt others subscribe to it as well, but it originated at CUSOM and OHSU adopted it. I suspect MCV has a similar rule but I do not believe it is formalized in the same way.

 

[aspiring20]

are you saying 1000-5000 is over kill strictly for shadowing? I would agree with that. However, I have about 1,000 hours of volunteering on my app (including clinical and non-clinical). I think if volunteering is something your truly passionate about no amount is overkill.

definitely! i think 50-100 hours of shadowing is the "golden range". anything below 50 might be deemed insufficient (which probably isn't true), while anything above 100 just isn't necessary anymore - you can use that time to do anything else that'll help your application more.

but when it comes to hospital volunteering/community service, i am a believer in "the more, the better". though after you cross a certain threshold, the law of diminishing returns set in.

the different between 150 hours and 500 hours is pretty substantial, but the difference between 1000 hours and 10,000 hours is probably less so.

 

[survivordo]

I didn't shadow all that much, my clinical experiences were few... BUT I was able to speak about it eloquently when asked and connect my experiences to the grand scheme of medicine in general. When you can do THIS you have shadowed enough/have enough clinical experience. Quantifying it is for the birds.

Survivor DO

 

[Urnathok]

I didn't shadow all that much, my clinical experiences were few... BUT I was able to speak about it eloquently when asked and connect my experiences to the grand scheme of medicine in general. When you can do THIS you have shadowed enough/have enough clinical experience. Quantifying it is for the birds.

Survivor DO

That's the impression I'm developing -- quality over quantity. I've just broken 100 hours on volunteering, but I'm able to talk about the value of the time spent well enough. And as far as shadowing, that rule applies even more. I'm just an undergrad, but I can't imagine that they want you to give a summary of each physician shadowing you did so that they can judge whether you've met the appropriate hours to know what you're doing. It seems more likely that you'll spend the time on one or two of the more significant cases.

Also why snatching up all the shadowing you can get isn't that helpful. I don't have much to say about the 8 hour surgery I was able to shadow through, but I can talk all day about the dementia patient the family doctor saw for half an hour.

 

[GatsbyK]

I definitely think if you can tie the 1000+ hours into why you want to be in medicine it would definitely help. I don't think its a matter of 150 hours or 1000+ hours, if you can ultimately talk about how it has impacted you and your career choice than it would show that you spent your time choosing a career you enjoy.

 

[OPanchor]

To sort of follow through with this thread, all of my ECs are solid, except shadowing. I have had difficulty finding places to shadow (due to HIPAA, etc, I must be looking at the wrong places). However, in my application I have mentioned that I have informally shadowed physicians during my work as an EMT during down time between transports and also while doing research in a clinical hospital. Would that be tolerable at best, considering my current standpoint (looking for shadows)?

 

[fourhumours]

I never shadowed any physicians because I have been around physicians my whole life and informally felt like I had tons of exposure.

I will say that an at an interview and after talking to other people involved in medical school administration, shadowing is kind of an informal requirement. while most doctors, and I have gotten a variation of this response many times, say "shadowing is bull****" it is one of those hoops you need to jump through for your application. I didn't jump through it (only shadowed one or two doctors for about 8 hours, and literally spent most of the time just standing against a wall waiting for them to get done with patients who didn't want me in the room) and it probably hurt me a little bit, definitely would have been worth my time to have done some (I did have volunteer experience in hospitals and clinics that were non-medical, i.e. with social workers, that was over 1700 hours, but that didn't count as "shadowing").

its stupid but you need to do it

 

[aspiring20]

I never shadowed any physicians because I have been around physicians my whole life and informally felt like I had tons of exposure.

I will say that an at an interview and after talking to other people involved in medical school administration, shadowing is kind of an informal requirement. while most doctors, and I have gotten a variation of this response many times, say "shadowing is bull****" it is one of those hoops you need to jump through for your application. I didn't jump through it (only shadowed one or two doctors for about 8 hours, and literally spent most of the time just standing against a wall waiting for them to get done with patients who didn't want me in the room) and it probably hurt me a little bit, definitely would have been worth my time to have done some (I did have volunteer experience in hospitals and clinics that were non-medical, i.e. with social workers, that was over 1700 hours, but that didn't count as "shadowing").

its stupid but you need to do it

exactly. this applies to many of the other hoops we have to jump through as well

 

[chillaxbro]

So that's why I didn't get in this year... I volunteer too much...

 

[NickNaylor]

I never shadowed any physicians because I have been around physicians my whole life and informally felt like I had tons of exposure.

I will say that an at an interview and after talking to other people involved in medical school administration, shadowing is kind of an informal requirement. while most doctors, and I have gotten a variation of this response many times, say "shadowing is bull****" it is one of those hoops you need to jump through for your application. I didn't jump through it (only shadowed one or two doctors for about 8 hours, and literally spent most of the time just standing against a wall waiting for them to get done with patients who didn't want me in the room) and it probably hurt me a little bit, definitely would have been worth my time to have done some (I did have volunteer experience in hospitals and clinics that were non-medical, i.e. with social workers, that was over 1700 hours, but that didn't count as "shadowing").

its stupid but you need to do it

exactly. this applies to many of the other hoops we have to jump through as well

Depends on your experience. Personally I thought shadowing was awesome, but then again I had docs that were enjoyable to be around and it was something other than family practice. If you come from a background of substantial clinical exposure (e.g., parents are physicians and you've spent a few days shadowing them as an OLDER person), then I can understand that being a waste of time. However, I've found that most people that seem to really disdain shadowing totally miss the point of it and don't approach it seriously or with an open mind. With that approach you pretty much guarantee that the experience will suck.

Not saying that you guys are doing that or that shadowing is the best thing in the world ever, however it is far from the worst - after all, you're getting an idea of what you will be spending a good portion of the remainder of your life learning to do and doing. From that aspect alone I would thing it would somehow manage to grab your attention.