How much is P/F worth? Yale/UCSF vs UT Southwestern/Pritzker

[sugar_n_splice]

Hi y'all!

I am still trying to narrow down a few options (not all listed here), BUT I wanted to gauge, in general, how much having P/F pre-clinical AND clinical is worth when compared to scholarships.

Essentially, I have a full COA scholarship from UT Southwestern and a full tuition Einstein scholarship (thanks, Ruth). I was also accepted to Yale, UCSF, and Emory, which all have pass/fail for all 4 years. I haven't heard back in terms of financial aid, so a lot could change, but in general... how much would you be willing to pay for name/work-life balance and a chill curriculum?

Thanks!

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[Doja Stan]

I am seeing these posts left and right on here and on Reddit. There is nothing we can tell you until you have received financial aid packages at all your schools, at which point you can make an appropriate apples to apples comparison about what makes the most sense for you.

 

[MercifulCamper]

Congrats! These are great options and you seem to have had a very similar cycle to mine last year with literally the some of the same choices and scholarship considerations.

You turned down Baylor in the Texas Match (I'm assuming) for the UTSW scholarship so you already made the determination for yourself that P/F clinicals at a school with a similar reputation is less important than the money - so I don't think you should really consider Emory. I also wouldn't really consider Einstein as UTSW is a stronger program and you would not have to pay cost-of-living at UTSW.

For Yale and UCSF - these schools have a a more relaxed student body environment than UTSW - based on comparing my experience here at UCSF and friends at both Yale and UTSW (although this is all subjective), which is potentially worth something to you. How much depends on your averseness to debt, how likely you are to get aid at Yale and UCSF (Yale has much better need-based financial aid than UCSF), and how much debt you are already carrying.

Furthermore, Yale and UCSF have slightly stronger reputations in medicine and generally offer better matching prospects, but UTSW will also get you anywhere you want to go if you work just a bit more for it. If you are dead set on hyper competitive specialty and matching to one of the top residency programs in the country UCSF/Yale will give you a little bit of an edge but again UTSW will not prevent you from getting there. If you know you would like to go into primary care - then take UTSW's money and run. Lastly, being financially free to choose whatever specialty you want (not worrying about pay down the road) is also a blessing that UCSF/Yale may not offer you depending on financial aid and make sure to consider that.

For me the P/F and better matching prospects were worth it to pay - but I had other considerations and you can visit my post last year to see all the details if you want.

Other things that I considered when making the same decision you are making:

Do I want a new experience in another part of the country to gain a different perspective?
How far away will I be from my home/support network?
Does the program align with my moral compass - does it serve the patient population that I care about?

Please reach out if you have any other questions about deciding or about UCSF. Hope everything works out and you get the max amount of money at your top program.

 

[sugar_n_splice]

Congrats! These are great options and you seem to have had a very similar cycle to mine last year with literally the some of the same choices and scholarship consideration.

You turned down Baylor in the Texas Match (I'm assuming) for the UTSW scholarship so you already made the determination for yourself that P/F clinicals at a school with a similar reputation is more important than the money - so I don't think you should really consider Emory. I also wouldn't really consider Einstein as UTSW is a stronger program and you would not have to pay cost-of-living at UTSW.

For Yale and UCSF - these schools have a a more relaxed student body environment than UTSW - based on comparing my experience here at UCSF and friends at both Yale and UTSW (although this is all subjective), which is potentially worth something to you. How much depends on your averseness to debt, how likely you are to get aid at Yale and UCSF (Yale has much better need-based financial aid than UCSF), and how much debt you are already carrying.

Furthermore, Yale and UCSF have slightly stronger reputations in medicine and generally offer better matching prospects, but UTSW will also get you anywhere you want to go if you work just a bit more for it. If you are dead set on hyper competitive specialty and matching to one of the top residency programs in the country UCSF/Yale will have give you a little bit of an edge but again UTSW will not prevent you from getting there. If you know you would like to go into primary care - then take UTSW's money and run. Lastly, being financially free to choose whatever specialty you want (not worrying about pay down the road) is also a blessing that UCSF/Yale may not offer you depending on financial aid and make sure to consider that.

thank you so so much for your thoughts and congrats on UCSF!

For some additional context: I am not very interested in returning to Texas because I am hoping to go into OB (which is always subject to change). I know that people can match into residencies outside of Texas, but there is a lot of in-state bias, and I would definitely have to work harder to make a name for myself in programs outside of Texas.

I am just not sure what is worth more in the long run- having a chill environment and having better match potential OR being financially free from debt. A lot to think about in the coming months but I appreciate your help <3

 

[sugar_n_splice]

I am seeing these posts left and right on here and on Reddit. There is nothing we can tell you until you have received financial aid packages at all your schools, at which point you can make an appropriate apples to apples comparison about what makes the most sense for you.

I understand your point, and I know that I am nowhere near making a final decision. I was mainly asking to get a sense of how people thought through these decisions and how they could impact my career in the long run. No need to say "choose X school" but rather what considerations I should keep in mind while I gather more information. Thanks!

 

[MercifulCamper]

thank you so so much for your thoughts and congrats on UCSF!

For some additional context: I am not very interested in returning to Texas because I am hoping to go into OB (which is always subject to change). I know that people can match into residencies outside of Texas, but there is a lot of in-state bias, and I would definitely have to work harder to make a name for myself in programs outside of Texas.

I am just not sure what is worth more in the long run- having a chill environment and having better match potential OR being financially free from debt. A lot to think about in the coming months but I appreciate your help <3

That was also part of the calculus for me and my partner because she wants to do OB. Also being in a state where you have your reproductive rights (regardless of your gender identity/sexuality) is pretty nice and may also matter to you. Needless to say, these decisions are multifactorial and are very individualistic!

 

[Hollow Knight]

Personal happiness is worth A LOT.

I for one couldn't imagine having my letter grades on my transcripts. I got mostly As preclinical, but at some point I just stopped looking, and it was nice not to care. When my wife and I started having problems, I could just shrug and say "It's P/F"

Edit: also since almost all schools are P/F now nobody cares about preclinical grades anyway

 

[MercifulCamper]

Personal happiness is worth A LOT.

I for one couldn't imagine having my letter grades on my transcripts. I got mostly As preclinical, but at some point I just stopped looking, and it was nice not to care. When my wife and I started having problems, I could just shrug and say "It's P/F"

Edit: also since almost all schools are P/F now nobody cares about preclinical grades anyway

OP is referring to clinicals being P/F

 

[Hollow Knight]

OP is referring to clinicals being P/F

Crap, thanks.

Honestly, it sounds pretty nice. Evals are completely a personality contest anyways. At the schools you're describing, the school prestige probably means you don't need an honors system.

But listen to other people, I'm at a low-tier MD

Edit: dude, go with the full-ride scholarships. That kind of money is life-changing.

If you decide you want to own a practice, you'll actually be able to.

 

[liketb12]

UTSW seems to have an amazing match list - you won’t have any problem leaving Texas and getting into an amazing residency of your choice & prestige.

Also, it’s much harder to fail a clerkship than it is to get honors let alone pass especially since those grades are mostly subjective. If you’d do well somewhere P/F, you’d be doing just as well graded.

I’d say follow the money and HEAVY on being close to your support system!!!

 

[MercifulCamper]

UTSW seems to have an amazing match list - you won’t have any problem leaving Texas and getting into an amazing residency of your choice & prestige.

Also, it’s much harder to fail a clerkship than it is to get honors let alone pass especially since those grades are mostly subjective. If you’d do well somewhere P/F, you’d be doing just as well graded.

I’d say follow the money and HEAVY on being close to your support system!!!

You just said what the problem is with graded clerkships. They’re subjective. I don’t really find it to be the pro that you’re portraying it as. If you don’t get honors in a rotation - especially the one that you’re applying to residency for, it can hurt you in the residency process. I don’t think OP is really worrying about failing. They seem to be a strong student given the options they have.

I do agree. UTSW is strong but it also seems OP does not want to do residency in Texas and UTSW is not as strong at matching outside of the state in more pro choice states as Yale/UCSF

 

[sugar_n_splice]

Update for those who are curious: I ended up hearing back from UChicago (not previously mentioned) and Yale regarding financial aid. Yale offered me the max amount of aid (paying 10k per year) and UChicago gave me full tuition (~33k if I took the full loan). I am going to ask UChicago to try and match either the 10k offer or COA and go from there. I also plan on visiting both to get a sense of the campus/ if I see myself there.

I am very torn on the p/f thing at this point. Many mention that it could be helpful to not have the added stress of grades/ risking not getting honors but others have told me getting multiple honors vs no grades wont be as powerful in apps. I still think generally being at a p/f school is better for well being but it does beg the question of STEP preparedness and competitiveness. Just a thought.

 

[MercifulCamper]

Update for those who are curious: I ended up hearing back from UChicago (not previously mentioned) and Yale regarding financial aid. Yale offered me the max amount of aid (paying 10k per year) and UChicago gave me full tuition (~33k if I took the full loan). I am going to ask UChicago to try and match either the 10k offer or COA and go from there. I also plan on visiting both to get a sense of the campus/ if I see myself there.

I am very torn on the p/f thing at this point. Many mention that it could be helpful to not have the added stress of grades/ risking not getting honors but others have told me getting multiple honors vs no grades wont be as powerful in apps. I still think generally being at a p/f school is better for well being but it does beg the question of STEP preparedness and competitiveness. Just a thought.

I think that's a really solid deal at Yale. Personally 40 K of debt would be worth it for me for P/F and being in a pro-choice state. You are going to be able to pay that off in no time as a physician. Be warned, the weather sucks during the winter. I lived on the East Coast for several years.

The schools that have P/F throughout tend to be some of the best schools in the country, including the ones that you are considering. The administrations know that their students will be competitive without grades. I think I'm a little confused based on the wording in bold. Do some people think that going to one of these schools with full P/F puts you at a disadvantage of matching? I would argue that is not supported by the data with schools like UCSF and Yale matching just as well as when they had grades.

 

[It’s Over!!!]

Yale unless UCSF is the same or cheaper.

Yale has the best rep re student happiness and matches with the best of them. That’s worth 40k easy to me. I’d eliminate UT, Einstein, Emory, even Chicago with full COA, and really everything that isn’t Harvard/Hopkins/UCSF, etc and only if 40k or less.

And this doesn't mean if you get Harvard/Hopkins/UCSF, etc with a good package you automatically go there. That just means then you have a horse race--a tough decision. To me, your choice is pretty easy as it stands now.

Yale.

And remember, to everyone outside of medicine, Yale is assumed to be the second best medical school! (kidding/not kidding)

Congrats!

 

[Dr. Sahab]

First off, I just wanted to say congratulations! You have a lot of amazing choices and a difficult choice ahead of you...

Gathering all the information, it sounds like you would do really well at any school that you choose. You ability to be accepted at all of these places likely demonstrates that you will be successful regardless of whether or not clinicals are P/F. Cost is certainly a factor, and if I were you I would certainly ask all of your schools to match the best offer you have received, but also consider which school YOU would be happy at. How much does having a support system nearby matter to you? What location do you see yourself at for the next four years and maybe beyond? With an interest in OB, being in a pro-choice state is also likely important. Definitely visit each school if possible and see how you feel.

Thats all I have to say. Good luck and I look forward to seeing what you end up choosing!

 

[MercifulCamper]

Here is the perspective of students on rotations right now at graded clerkship schools. Just know what you may be signing up for if you go that route. https://www.reddit.com/r/medicalschool/s/AxkqwhSzs3

 

[sugar_n_splice]

Here is the perspective of students on rotations right now at graded clerkship schools. Just know what you may be signing up for if you go that route. https://www.reddit.com/r/medicalschool/s/AxkqwhSzs3

Thank you sm for sharing this perspective. I think that, especially as a URM, I am pretty wary of evals in certain rotations. Even in the interview trail, I had varying experiences, so I agree that this is a big point to consider.

 

[theridgespamms]

Furthermore, Yale and UCSF have slightly stronger reputations in medicine and generally offer better matching prospects, but UTSW will also get you anywhere you want to go if you work just a bit more for it. If you are dead set on hyper competitive specialty and matching to one of the top residency programs in the country UCSF/Yale will give you a little bit of an edge but again UTSW will not prevent you from getting there. If you know you would like to go into primary care - then take UTSW's money and run. Lastly, being financially free to choose whatever specialty you want (not worrying about pay down the road) is also a blessing that UCSF/Yale may not offer you depending on financial aid and make sure to consider that.

I personally don't think that Yale has as strong of a reputation in medicine as UTSW - I also think that both tend to match relatively the same. UCSF definitely has a stronger reputation in medicine as a whole but I would consider what you want to get out of your career - me as basic scientist place a higher preference on the insane density of basic science research at UTSW that isn't at UCSF, but in almost every other category UCSF is definitely better than UTSW.

However I will say that I think UTSW can match you wherever you want - you will not be limited in the slightest, comparing matching prospects are really hard because everyone tends to have a bias to stay at their home institution due to family, S/O and other reasons because they've established a life in their 20s with potentially even family that would have to get up and move. But yes UCSF def still has a higher matching prospect that UTSW - cannot deny that.

Other things that I considered when making the same decision you are making:

Do I want a new experience in another part of the country to gain a different perspective?
How far away will I be from my home/support network?
Does the program align with my moral compass - does it serve the patient population that I care about?

Please reach out if you have any other questions about deciding or about UCSF. Hope everything works out and you get the max amount of money at your top program.

Also agree with this stuff ^^ There is so much more to consider like - cost of living, financial aid, etc.. (SF is quite expensive). who you might have met during second look (this is your cohort as well!!) the location, the lifestyle that you would get to live, etc..

imo (I'm not super sold on the yale no grading system) but between UTSW UCSF and Yale you cannot go wrong at all - pick what best fits you (block out the prestige noise because it plays a negligible difference), where you are happiest and best supported will be where you do the best

 

[sugar_n_splice]

Hey hey! So I have finally narrowed down my choices to UCSF vs Yale. I think overall I would enjoy being in a bigger city like SF and they are more social justice oriented but I have wayyyy more of a support system on the east coast. No FA from UCSF yet (ugh) but I am really feeling happy with either choice!

I still am waiting back on some other schools for their FA (or updated packages) so that *may* change things but I will just have to see what happens when everything is out there.

Thanks for all the help and I will keep you updated!!

 

[johnfletch]

Congrats on narrowing down to two amazing choices. I believe both schools do P/F all 4 years, and they certainly both have great reputations in medicine. If I were in your scenario, I would choose Yale for a few main reasons:

1) Being close to family and support system is incredibly valuable
2) You have nearly a full-ride

In addition, I have some connections with doctors at UCSF, and there are some serious doubts internally right now about the strength of the program. I didn’t add this to my main points, since it’s purely anecdotal, but there is concern that the program is coasting off reputation at this point.

I am not sure how UCSF’s aid system works but assuming they are not matching Yale then I think it becomes a relatively easy choice for Yale. If UCSF matches the money then that would be more of a consideration.

Your long term personal wellbeing should come first, and that includes both financial concerns and personal support systems, which it seems Yale would be better for. In terms of the program and the reputation of the physical locations, I would call it a draw. Good luck on the decision.

 

[MercifulCamper]

Congrats on narrowing down to two amazing choices. I believe both schools do P/F all 4 years, and they certainly both have great reputations in medicine. If I were in your scenario, I would choose Yale for a few main reasons:

1) Being close to family and support system is incredibly valuable
2) You have nearly a full-ride

In addition, I have some connections with doctors at UCSF, and there are some serious doubts internally right now about the strength of the program. I didn’t add this to my main points, since it’s purely anecdotal, but there is concern that the program is coasting off reputation at this point.

I am not sure how UCSF’s aid system works but assuming they are not matching Yale then I think it becomes a relatively easy choice for Yale. If UCSF matches the money then that would be more of a consideration.

Your long term personal wellbeing should come first, and that includes both financial concerns and personal support systems, which it seems Yale would be better for. In terms of the program and the reputation of the physical locations, I would call it a draw. Good luck on the decision.

Curious to know what these doubts are?

 

[johnfletch]

In hindsight, I probably should have left that out. Like I said, it’s just anecdotal.

But essentially I heard that the school and its curriculum is not doing the best job of supporting its students and the residency transition compared to other top schools. It is still an elite institution, but not as comparatively excellent as in the past.

But again I’m not affiliated with the school so I can’t speak on it directly. I would still go to UCSF in a heartbeat if it was the best option.

 

[sugar_n_splice]

UCSF came through w the financial aid! Thank you all for your help, and I can't wait for SF!!