How much is too much debt?

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organicman22

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Hi SDN

Been awhile since I have posted but I'm in the midst of signing an apartment lease and starting dental school at NYU and I'm kind of freaking out over how expensive this next 4 years will be. For my first year I'm going to take out my full amount of loans, approximately $109,00. This will cover tuition and my rent...my parents may help with my groceries and other small necessary purchases. Anyways, I'm debating if I should sign a lease for this nice $2500 per month studio that is literally right next to the school or if I should opt for a cheaper place without the bells and whistles.

I'm estimating that I'll take out about $410K in loans over my 4 years, should I worry?

All in all, do you think it is safe to max out on loans and live semi-lavishly while in D-school or should I still be a penny pincher like I was in undergraduate?

Would love some input from some recent grads!

Thanks guys

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Hi SDN

Been awhile since I have posted but I'm in the midst of signing an apartment lease and starting dental school at NYU and I'm kind of freaking out over how expensive this next 4 years will be. For my first year I'm going to take out my full amount of loans, approximately $109,00. This will cover tuition and my rent...my parents may help with my groceries and other small necessary purchases. Anyways, I'm debating if I should sign a lease for this nice $2500 per month studio that is literally right next to the school or if I should opt for a cheaper place without the bells and whistles.

I'm estimating that I'll take out about $410K in loans over my 4 years, should I worry?


All in all, do you think it is safe to max out on loans and live semi-lavishly while in D-school or should I still be a penny pincher like I was in undergraduate?

Would love some input from some recent grads!

Thanks guys
You should worry more than the class ahead of you, but not as much next's year class.

About 60,000 apply to dental school every year, about 5,000 get in as of 2010-11. This is the highest figures in the last decade. The cost of education is dictated primarily by the demand, and the demand has been going up every year over the past decade. Your actual initial debt will be closer to $500k after interest and grace period after graduation.

IMO, being in $500k debt today is a big investment that is best fixed with military scholarship, because you will not be able to pay back that loan in the short term if you go civilian side. As for long term repayment, say 25 years, the interest on the big balance will make your total payments with interest be $1M to $1.5M range. Not to mention that you can't deduct your huge interest on your education loan from your income when you file taxes every year. 10 years ago military option was not attractive, but it is today as the 4 years commitment is the fastest route to be Debt Free.
 
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500k, when is the education bubble in America going to burst? I love the fact that they opened a new school in Florida- LECOM Dental and mentioned on their website "access to care". Yeah, access to care for the rich who can pay for the dentist's greedy school and for the loan interest.

If you are not thinking about doing a military or public health scholarship, I would just shoot myself in the foot... or maybe in the hand... and go to PA school.
 
Wow, I spent 14 years doing post baccalaureate work, including PHD, MD, internship, residency, and fellowship, and I only have about $200k in loans! Of course, I'm not in NYC and was married the whole time. I'll tell you that even with over $100k locked in at under 3%, it's still like making a second mortgage payment every month. $400k at likely 6-7% would be absolutely suffocating. I'd seriously rethink your plans.

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500k, when is the education bubble in America going to burst?

Hmmm hard to predict. I doubt it will be a straight burst of the bubble but more of like a gradual leveling off of the tuition or even a gradual slight lowering of the tuition as inflation catches up to make tuition more reasonable. This might take decades however. And socialist bailouts only put a temporary patch on the problem. I believe this will start happening once someone forces the government to stop handing out federal money like candy to anyone with a pulse that wants to go to any type of educational institution. So many garbage diploma mills are popping up to take advantage of unlimited federal money to cover all tuition everywhere.

The government wants you to be in debt. They love it. Why do you think they made it that you get it directly from the government now and no longer from private sources? Why do you think they took away subsidized loans but not the highly lucrative 6.8% and 7.9% unsubsidized loans? The government is highly in debt themselves and they love your student loan payments to help them out of their own debt. Seems like this country is just one big cycle of people being in debt. They even give you slight tax breaks if you are in debt. Like it is a plus to be in debt.
 
I'm honestly fine with it being expensive. First of all, the schools are not cheap to run. Second, the price does frighten off many possible competitors for "my spot" in a DS. Third, it is either worth it or it isn't. IMO it is worth it, so I'll do it. It's a $400,000 investment for 40 years of $200,000+ every year afterwords. Get over it.

For the original poster: yes. I would pinch pennies, but if you don't want to, then don't. Have a great time and pay it off later. Just realize that living lavishly now will mean paying off your debt for longer. But that is your choice, so do what you want.
 
You should worry more than the class ahead of you, but not as much next's year class.

About 60,000 apply to dental school every year, about 5,000 get in as of 2010-11. This is the highest figures in the last decade. The cost of education is dictated primarily by the demand, and the demand has been going up every year over the past decade. Your actual initial debt will be closer to $500k after interest and grace period after graduation.

IMO, being in $500k debt today is a big investment that is best fixed with military scholarship, because you will not be able to pay back that loan in the short term if you go civilian side. As for long term repayment, say 25 years, the interest on the big balance will make your total payments with interest be $1M to $1.5M range. Not to mention that you can't deduct your huge interest on your education loan from your income when you file taxes every year. 10 years ago military option was not attractive, but it is today as the 4 years commitment is the fastest route to be Debt Free.



The last figure I found for 2009 applicant numbers were these: "Of the 12,210 applicants in 2009, 40 percent were enrolled, totaling 4,871 first-time enrollees." Was there really that big of a jump to 60,000 applicants that fast?
 
I'm honestly fine with it being expensive. First of all, the schools are not cheap to run. Second, the price does frighten off many possible competitors for "my spot" in a DS. Third, it is either worth it or it isn't. IMO it is worth it, so I'll do it. It's a $400,000 investment for 40 years of $200,000+ every year afterwords. Get over it.

uh...


The last figure I found for 2009 applicant numbers were these: "Of the 12,210 applicants in 2009, 40 percent were enrolled, totaling 4,871 first-time enrollees." Was there really that big of a jump to 60,000 applicants that fast?

That 60,000 figure could be the amount of applications and 12,000 the real figure of the applicants. In Optometry we have around 60% enrollment of applicants which is also a little scary.
 
I'm honestly fine with it being expensive. First of all, the schools are not cheap to run. Second, the price does frighten off many possible competitors for "my spot" in a DS. Third, it is either worth it or it isn't. IMO it is worth it, so I'll do it. It's a $400,000 investment for 40 years of $200,000+ every year afterwords. Get over it.

For the original poster: yes. I would pinch pennies, but if you don't want to, then don't. Have a great time and pay it off later. Just realize that living lavishly now will mean paying off your debt for longer. But that is your choice, so do what you want.

this has been my mentality from the beginning. what surprises me is the number of people i know that have debt from undergrad or masters programs on top of dental school.

i know a dentist personally that is doing fine having recently graduated with 350k of loans. i think the key to paying off this amount of money will come down to where you decide to practice. i'm leaving the city.

to the OP, there are plenty of nice apts close to school (east village, gramercy, murray hill) under 2k a month. trust me.
 
I'm honestly fine with it being expensive. First of all, the schools are not cheap to run. Second, the price does frighten off many possible competitors for "my spot" in a DS. Third, it is either worth it or it isn't. IMO it is worth it, so I'll do it. It's a $400,000 investment for 40 years of $200,000+ every year afterwords. Get over it.

For the original poster: yes. I would pinch pennies, but if you don't want to, then don't. Have a great time and pay it off later. Just realize that living lavishly now will mean paying off your debt for longer. But that is your choice, so do what you want.

There is a very good reason the price frightens off many possible competitors. They know they will be working a corporate dental mill for a long time. And I think you need to talk to some recent graduates if you think you will be making $200,000 plus every year afterwords.
 
I'm honestly fine with it being expensive. First of all, the schools are not cheap to run. Second, the price does frighten off many possible competitors for "my spot" in a DS. Third, it is either worth it or it isn't. IMO it is worth it, so I'll do it. It's a $400,000 investment for 40 years of $200,000+ every year afterwords. Get over it.

For the original poster: yes. I would pinch pennies, but if you don't want to, then don't. Have a great time and pay it off later. Just realize that living lavishly now will mean paying off your debt for longer. But that is your choice, so do what you want.

ROFL...at the 200K salary for 40 years. Mayb after 10-15 years of practicing if you are lucky. Do the math and speak with a financial adviser. They'll give you a quick reality check.
 
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I'm honestly fine with it being expensive. First of all, the schools are not cheap to run. Second, the price does frighten off many possible competitors for "my spot" in a DS. Third, it is either worth it or it isn't. IMO it is worth it, so I'll do it. It's a $400,000 investment for 40 years of $200,000+ every year afterwords. Get over it.

For the original poster: yes. I would pinch pennies, but if you don't want to, then don't. Have a great time and pay it off later. Just realize that living lavishly now will mean paying off your debt for longer. But that is your choice, so do what you want.

Spoken like a true pre-dent :)
 
+1000

If you stretch $500k out to repay for 20 years you will end up paying: Cumulative Payments $916,006.81

with a Monthly Loan Payment: $3,816.70

Are you crazy?

Yup, it's a second mortage. But for a dose of reality, so many dentists 10 years or so out of school, happily take on a 2nd or even a 3rd "mortgage" in that amount (the mortage on one's primary residence, the "mortgage" on one's practice and then a mortgage on a 2nd home).

Most amounts of debt (that the lending industry allows you to get into) is manageable as long as one has a solid and REALISTIC handle on their cash flow. The problem arises when one doesn't have either the fiscal discipline and/or realistic handle on how they manage their debt.

If one goes into dental school with the expectation that very soon after they graduate they'll be driving around in a brand new Mercedes, then they'll likely be in for a big dose of reality. If one goes into dental school with the dream of someday owning a new Mercedes, well then someday there's a very good chance that they will fufill that dream (likely after one has paid off one's student loans, practice loans, a good chunk of their home mortgage, set away a significant amount of $$ for retirement, set away a significant amount of $$ for any kids college education(s), taken many family vacations, etc, etc, etc. "Dentist wealth" isn't something that is just created overnight. Just like the process of becoming a dentist in the 1st place, it takes YEARS of discipline and more than likely a mix of some successes and some failures along the way.
 
I'm glad you are all terrified. Yep dentistry is awful and dentists only make 100k. Please tell your friends how much it sucks.
 
This is just me; but, if I don't get into my state school (less than 170k in debt after graduation) than I'll be doing HPSP. I actually have already started the application.

Think about it - 2100/month, zero debt, good job at graduation, higher chance at competitive residencies, access to patients from day 1 to start building clinical skills, and the chance to serve in the greatest military the world has ever seen. To me it's a no-brainer given my option would private school debt at 300k and no assurance of a good job post grad.

I figure one could spend those 4 years in repayment developing clinical skills taking every CE they are eligible for, read books on practice management, save alot of money, then hit the ground running for a year or two once repayment is done before setting up a practice. How is that worse than 400k worth of debt? Look into HPSP even if all you can get at this point is a three year scholarship.
 
two things.
1. you can expect to earn between 120-180k a year as a dentist 1-5 years out less if you live in a big city and more if you own or practice where no one wants to live. Salary in dentistry is all over the place but the above numbers are average for myself and other dentists I talk to that are 1-5 years out.

2. 400-500k in debt to go to dental school is going to be the norm in 5-10 years, just like it cost 80k 10 years ago and just cost me 240k instate. Bottom line if you want to be a dentist just take the loan, but know that you will most likely be paying it off over a 30yr note. The only two jobs that I know of where you are guaranteed to make 100k+ a year and not work to hard and all ways be employed regardless of the economy is getting a DDS or MD.
 
well your also dealing with NYUCD and NYC rent! 300 students at NYU are not all making wrong decisions, they all come out owing 400k+ so congrats on getting, in just hang in there and graduate things will change.
 
well your also dealing with NYUCD and NYC rent! 300 students at NYU are not all making wrong decisions, they all come out owing 400k+ so congrats on getting, in just hang in there and graduate things will change.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf1D40jLdyo[/YOUTUBE]
 
The last figure I found for 2009 applicant numbers were these: "Of the 12,210 applicants in 2009, 40 percent were enrolled, totaling 4,871 first-time enrollees." Was there really that big of a jump to 60,000 applicants that fast?
# of Examined Applications was about 60,000.
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I'm honestly fine with it being expensive. First of all, the schools are not cheap to run. Second, the price does frighten off many possible competitors for "my spot" in a DS. Third, it is either worth it or it isn't. IMO it is worth it, so I'll do it. It's a $400,000 investment for 40 years of $200,000+ every year afterwords. Get over it.

It certainly is a risk, but be realistic about what you're getting into beforehand. It's not as simple as just having $400k debt then you start out at $200k from day one. Some things to consider:

  • Unless you're doing military, you will begin as an associate or you will do a buy-in or start from scratch. Your associate position will likely be much lower than $200k and the other options mean even more debt. With more and more students graduating, there is greater competition for the available positions. That means less opportunity and less money.
  • You will have other bills to pay. You'll want to have a home, a car, nice things, etc. You can live frugally, but it's not easy pulling into the office in your '93 Corolla. You'll have to fight the urge to buy stuff you feel you "deserve" because you put in so much time in school.
  • What about marriage and kids? Maybe that's in the cards for you and that's not cheap either. Sometimes things don't work out and the ex gets half. Life happens, be prepared.
    • Make sure you insure your health and your ability to do your profession. An illness or disablility can be devistating.
    • Just in case you didn't know, if you're lucky enough to make that $200K, well then you're not paying your "fair share" of taxes. You're rich, you can pay more, right? Not to get too political, but taxes aren't going in a downward direction! Expect the gov't to get a bigger chunk in the future.

    I'm not pessimistic about the future of the profession, but people really should be realistic about what they are getting into. That being said, if you really are passionate about becoming a dentist or specialist, go for it. It is not an easy thing to do, but it can be a very rewarding career.
 
two things.
1. you can expect to earn between 120-180k a year as a dentist 1-5 years out less if you live in a big city and more if you own or practice where no one wants to live. Salary in dentistry is all over the place but the above numbers are average for myself and other dentists I talk to that are 1-5 years out.

2. 400-500k in debt to go to dental school is going to be the norm in 5-10 years, just like it cost 80k 10 years ago and just cost me 240k instate. Bottom line if you want to be a dentist just take the loan, but know that you will most likely be paying it off over a 30yr note. The only two jobs that I know of where you are guaranteed to make 100k+ a year and not work to hard and all ways be employed regardless of the economy is getting a DDS or MD.

There are literally thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of practicing dentists and physicians that would STRONGLY disagree with your statement about not having to work "to hard" and/or the "guarenteed to make 100k+ a year" parts of your statement. While the physical aspects of the being a dentist or physician may not be as demanding as other occupations, the mental challenges that one has to deal with daily, and in no way is it only confined to actual "gloves on" patient treatment, is very rigorous and present the vast majority of the time
 
I suggest you go for the cheaper apartment, possibly with roomates (maybe skip the roomates if you want to specialize and you are a light sleeper).

Some schools seem to lend themselves to living pretty well so long as you are OK with extra time busting butt to pay the difference after graduation, but I don't think NYU is one of those schools. I considered going there and heard that a good route is to get a place (one bedroom I think) and set up fake walls or something, then share the cost with a roomate. This gets you down to like $1400 or less while still being relatively close to the school. Of course I'm sure your classmates know way more about that.

$2500 per mo for a studio would make me a sad panda.
 
It costs way less where Im living... but we pay way more taxes in the end...
Id probably end up with 75k debt and its stressing the * out of me, cant imagine what you guys think about your 400k debts
 
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It costs way less where Im living... but we pay way more taxes in the end...
I gotta move out because Ill study in another city(~2:30 hours ride) but if I wouldnt be paying for my appart and food I could have ended up with a ~35k debt... I except a 55-75k debt tho because Ill be alone and coming back home during week ends will cost (high gas prices)

and that 75k is stressing the * out of me, cant imagine what you guys think about your 400k debts, I got accepted in both dentistry and pharmacy (harder to get accepted in pharmacy than dentistry here) and my parents tried hard to convince me to study pharmacy... Only because of the money concerns...
(pharmacists dont have much debts and they can get a dentist salary here)

If you actually graduate with only 75K in stafford loans, you're going to be just fine. Even if things go poorly for you out of the gate you'll be fine.

Cheer up buddy, life's going to be good :thumbup:
 
I'll be graduating with around 400K in debt as well. I just plan on living frugally and paying back as much of it as I can each year so it gets paid off quickly. If you're making over 100K a year, which we will be, it's not crazy to think of using half your income to pay back loans in my opinion. Especially if you have a significant other that also has an income. You won't be living a lavish lifestyle for a while but you will be living a decent lifestyle with enough money to support a family. You just won't have the nicest house or cars or whatever until your loans are paid off. The only problem I see with my future is having children. My current gf wants to stay at home when she has kids so I wouldn't have a dual income in that situation. Either way we can make it work with this amount of debt it just won't be the most fun right away haha.
 
I'll be graduating with around 400K in debt as well. I just plan on living frugally and paying back as much of it as I can each year so it gets paid off quickly. If you're making over 100K a year, which we will be, it's not crazy to think of using half your income to pay back loans in my opinion. Especially if you have a significant other that also has an income. You won't be living a lavish lifestyle for a while but you will be living a decent lifestyle with enough money to support a family. You just won't have the nicest house or cars or whatever until your loans are paid off. The only problem I see with my future is having children. My current gf wants to stay at home when she has kids so I wouldn't have a dual income in that situation. Either way we can make it work with this amount of debt it just won't be the most fun right away haha.

The reality is that if one is making over 100k a year, with the current tax system (and not just income taxes, but also sales taxes on purchases, any property taxes one might have, taxes on your vehicle, etc, etc, etc) one is often paying close to, if not more in some cases, 50% of their earning in taxes already :eek: The question then that many will start to address in their own minds, based on their own situation is one that many in Washington these days love to bring up. What is one's "fairshare" of taxes to pay?
 
The reality is that if one is making over 100k a year, with the current tax system (and not just income taxes, but also sales taxes on purchases, any property taxes one might have, taxes on your vehicle, etc, etc, etc) one is often paying close to, if not more in some cases, 50% of their earning in taxes already :eek: The question then that many will start to address in their own minds, based on their own situation is one that many in Washington these days love to bring up. What is one's "fairshare" of taxes to pay?

Very true. Didn't think of that completely. Either way all we can do is accept the debt, go through school, and pay as much off as quickly as possible when we're done. I had three options for schools and all of them would have put me in around the same amount of debt so it's not like this amount of debt is super unusual or anything. We just have to deal with it and make it work.
 
dental school cost is a little outrageous. (Why do gold prices keep increasing)?

I know a friend in pharmacy school who is paying half of what I'm paying, and he already has 100K+ job lined up. There are plenty of 100K jobs out there. If you happen to be in engineering or science, you'll likely find one. It just isn't fair to compare a DMD to a BS. If were you to compare a DMD to Ph.d then you'd have a much better comparison.
 
i'm also enrolled in NYU dental for the upcoming semester and have been freaking out about the debt and expenses. here's the most logical conclusion i've come to:

incur as little debt as you possibly can right now. as other posters have stated, it is entirely possible to find an apartment, in the city, near school for as little as $1200/month. i've seen $2100-3000 2 bedrooms in murray hill, kips bay, gramercy, and east village. you would of course need a roommate. some are listed as 1 bedrooms, so you may have to do the ghetto fake pressurized wall thing. many of these units are not in fancy buildings with a gym and roofdeck pool. most, however, are in decent buildings with a doorman, on site laundry, and bike/storage room.

paying $1000 less in rent each month translates into $12000 a year, $48,000 over four years, and almost $70,000 with interest -- that's as much as a fifth year of tuition!

keep your expenses down as much as you possibly can. limit them to the essentials like food, metro pass, utilities, and miscellaneous incidentals. brown bag lunches. hit up the farmer's markets for highly discounted produce and veg and try to cook. i plan on doing this, though nothing gourmet or too time consuming. i realize this is hard to do in a fun city like NYC, where during your downtime you'll want to explore the city and make the most of it. budget a certain amount for happy hours, meals out, monthly concert or two.
if you're not eating steak dinners and shopping at bergdorf's regularly, i'd estimate your living expenses (not including rent) can span anywhere from $800-2000 -- so aim for the lower end of that. like with your rent expenses, a difference of $1000 or even $500 a month can translate into a heck of a lot at the end of 4 years. since we can't control the exorbitant tuition, let's control whatever we can :)
 
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There are literally thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of practicing dentists and physicians that would STRONGLY disagree with your statement about not having to work "to hard" and/or the "guarenteed to make 100k+ a year" parts of your statement. While the physical aspects of the being a dentist or physician may not be as demanding as other occupations, the mental challenges that one has to deal with daily, and in no way is it only confined to actual "gloves on" patient treatment, is very rigorous and present the vast majority of the time

-keep telling yourself that to make yourself feel special. One thing that drives me nuts is that most DR's have this elitism complex when you are no different than anyone else. Compared to other jobs I have done dentistry is not hard, as in not physically demanding, good hours, and inside away from the elements, for the $$$ you make. Try working on the oil rigs or in finance, both those jobs pay 100k. I guarantee you healthcare will look easy then. The majority of people who get a DDS have no real work experience, thus just having a job seems so tuff. Also if any dentist or MD doesn't make 100k within a few years out your doing something wrong or only working 2 days a week. On a side note most DDS/MD's I know dont think they work that hard, maybe things are different up in New York where everyone wants to live and the market is saturated.
 
He's at Brooklyn, CT which is a town in Connecticut.
 
Many also forget that the more money you make, the more you have to spend to protect it. Max disability coverage, increase life insurance, add umbrella policy (you will be a target, if you get in an accident), tax shelters, etc. That money disappears quickly. Thinking you can just take half your earnings and quickly pay down debt is pure folly.

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Many also forget that the more money you make, the more you have to spend to protect it. Max disability coverage, increase life insurance, add umbrella policy (you will be a target, if you get in an accident), tax shelters, etc. That money disappears quickly. Thinking you can just take half your earnings and quickly pay down debt is pure folly.

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I was really only thinking half if you had a dual income but I see what you're saying.
 
-keep telling yourself that to make yourself feel special. One thing that drives me nuts is that most DR's have this elitism complex when you are no different than anyone else. Compared to other jobs I have done dentistry is not hard, as in not physically demanding, good hours, and inside away from the elements, for the $$$ you make. Try working on the oil rigs or in finance, both those jobs pay 100k. I guarantee you healthcare will look easy then. The majority of people who get a DDS have no real work experience, thus just having a job seems so tuff. Also if any dentist or MD doesn't make 100k within a few years out your doing something wrong or only working 2 days a week. On a side note most DDS/MD's I know dont think they work that hard, maybe things are different up in New York where everyone wants to live and the market is saturated.
Wait until you get a job at a dental chain or at a busy group practice, then you will see exactly what Dr. Jeff is trying to say. I've seen dentists (who at the same dental chain with me) work non-stop for 8-9 straight hours. At least the workers, who work at the oil rigs, have two 15 minute breaks and an hour lunch. We, dentists, work as independent contractor; therefore, we are not protected by the current labor law. If a dentist is too slow and fails to produce, he/she'll be let go…and there will be no advance notice. Not to mention that many of the patients you treat have HMO or medicaid plans…..you pretty much do all the work for free (25-30% of Zero= Zero). Not to mention the back pain that many dentists are suffering.

My cousin is an MD anesthesiologist. He has do deal with the same BS at the hospital as well. If you think working at the hospital at 2AM (away from your family) is a fun profession, think again. As an anesthesiologist, he has to bill the patients separately....and unfortunately, a lot of his patients are illegal immigrants who don't have insurance.

I am very lucky that as an orthodontist, I don't have to work as hard as my general dentist and MD friends.
 
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I don't think this is true. Most jobs are easier compared to the top level professionals in health care. Every decision stops with you - if it's difficult it will be kicked up the chain and you're the final say. I've spoken with friends who work in finance and corporate american and they all mention that their jobs are relatively easy/non-technical or that their 8 hour work day [face time] consists of ~3-4 hrs of actual productive work.

Most people who get into DDS or MD have done more work post HS than most others in the form of jobs, research, ec's, volunteering studying etc.

This is coming from someone who worked in the military in a combat role. That was a type of "difficult" but so far juggling 16+ credits of mostly science, working in a lab, volunteering, and keeping up on all my studies is certainly difficult. There are days I wish I could go back to the simple days of doing a physical job or one where stress didn't linger in the form of difficult exams and wondering if "enough" is "enough".


-keep telling yourself that to make yourself feel special. One thing that drives me nuts is that most DR's have this elitism complex when you are no different than anyone else. Compared to other jobs I have done dentistry is not hard, as in not physically demanding, good hours, and inside away from the elements, for the $$$ you make. Try working on the oil rigs or in finance, both those jobs pay 100k. I guarantee you healthcare will look easy then. The majority of people who get a DDS have no real work experience, thus just having a job seems so tuff. Also if any dentist or MD doesn't make 100k within a few years out your doing something wrong or only working 2 days a week. On a side note most DDS/MD's I know dont think they work that hard, maybe things are different up in New York where everyone wants to live and the market is saturated.
 
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So, lets say you are doing fairly well and making $120,000. That's about ~$85,000 after income tax at most. That leaves you with about $30,000/year if you want to pay off your loans in 10 years.

Even if you spend your whole career paying off your student loans you will still be paying $30,000 per year in loans!

That is spectacularly depressing. Dentists are supposed to be rich, right? Try owning a home and a car in the first ten years after graduation with that kind of debt.
 
If I had to pay over 300k in loans back I would definitely go the military route. My State school should be around 100k with parents paying for cost of living so hopefully I'll be just fine without that lol
 
Honestly, if I were having to incur 400K+ debt to become a dentist and didn't find the military option particularly attractive, I would reconsider becoming a dentist or just better my stats and apply in-state.
 
Wait until you get a job at a dental chain or at a busy group practice, then you will see exactly what Dr. Jeff is trying to say. I've seen dentists (who at the same dental chain with me) work non-stop for 8-9 straight hours. At least the workers, who work at the oil rigs, have two 15 minute breaks and an hour lunch. We, dentists, work as independent contractor; therefore, we are not protected by the current labor law. If a dentist is too slow and fails to produce, he/she'll be let go…and there will be no advance notice. Not to mention that many of the patients you treat have HMO or medicaid plans…..you pretty much do all the work for free (25-30% of Zero= Zero). Not to mention the back pain that many dentists are suffering.

My cousin is an MD anesthesiologist. He has do deal with the same BS at the hospital as well. If you think working at the hospital at 2AM (away from your family) is a fun profession, think again. As an anesthesiologist, he has to bill the patients separately....and unfortunately, a lot of his patients are illegal immigrants who don't have insurance.

I am very lucky that as an orthodontist, I don't have to work as hard as my general dentist and MD friends.

I work for a dental mill currently, some days I work 6hrs some days I work 12hrs with no down time depending on the schedule, its not that hard compared to previous jobs I have had. As far as the oil rigs go both of my brothers work on the rigs they work 2 months on 2 weeks off 14 hour days with the only break in being transported from camp to the site. They both make around 120k a year and work way to hard for the $$$ and are away from their families a lot. I agree with the back pain issue though. I took a good CE course last year on posture and positioning in a dental chair which helps. When I was saying MD I was comparing DDS to a family doc, specialist are a different story. On a side note, how is the market for ortho in Cali? here in Colorado it is horrible, the office Im at gets docs coming in all the time to try and get referrals which there are not a lot of as most patients dont want to spend the money these days.
 
With the interest rates being so high, I think 400K or more is too high.

If you have no guarantees of what you're going to earn and you potentially might be stuck at 100K per year, by the time you've paid taxes and interest on your loans, you're making less than a high school teacher with no money to save for retirement, pay the principle down, or live the baller lifestyle you were hoping for when you applied to dental school.

I pay just under 3K a month in loans and I can't imagine trying to get by, save money, and have money left over to enjoy life if I was only at 90 or 100K in income. If you get out with 400K in debt, you'll have a good amount of that at 7.9% and end up with a 10 year payment plan in the $4,600 range, well over half your gross monthly income and that's just to bring yourself to a net worth of $0.00 ten years later.

The math works out great when you end up over 200K in income and your loans not much above that, but you're not all going to make 200K per year so it is a very risky decision to enter dental school under the assumption that you can borrow 300K+ and you'll be on the right side of the bell curve in earnings right out of school.
 
this is so true...plus what many pre-dents seem to forget about the whole 200K. You have to own your own practice. If you are just an associate, unless you're working overtime your basically in the 75K-130K range. Ive seen places offering 350 to 500 a day for associates.

Now if you have

400K of school debt, kids, wife, more debt for a house, plus saving up to buy a practice.

All that becomes quite hard.

Please borrow smartly, and lower your expectations. Someone on this forum once said being a dentist is about one day possible owning a Mercedes not expecting one straight out of school.
 
I just graduated from NYU with a debt of $430k+ (principle and accrued interest). I am currently looking for a job. I expect to have an income like 96k to 100k and expect to pay around $4000 a month for loan payment. I have never been working or pay tax before but from what I calculate from TurboTax, I would have to pay income tax around 13k a year (in California) with me filing jointly with my spouse and a kid (not sure if it's correct since every one saying you have to pay 35-40% of your income). So the math is: 100k - 13k - 48k = 39k

39k is what I bring home every year or 3250 a month

My 4 years in dental school, my wife and I spent like 800 a month for every thing (not including housing). So I would think that I can live with 3250 for about 10 years until I'm debt-free (not counting that my salary may increase about 30-50k a few years out) then we can start buy house, nice cars, etc.

I think it's not too bad like many people here think.
 
I just graduated from NYU with a debt of $430k+ (principle and accrued interest). I am currently looking for a job. I expect to have an income like 96k to 100k and expect to pay around $4000 a month for loan payment. I have never been working or pay tax before but from what I calculate from TurboTax, I would have to pay income tax around 13k a year (in California) with me filing jointly with my spouse and a kid (not sure if it's correct since every one saying you have to pay 35-40% of your income). So the math is: 100k - 13k - 48k = 39k

39k is what I bring home every year or 3250 a month

My 4 years in dental school, my wife and I spent like 800 a month for every thing (not including housing). So I would think that I can live with 3250 for about 10 years until I'm debt-free (not counting that my salary may increase about 30-50k a few years out) then we can start buy house, nice cars, etc.

I think it's not too bad like many people here think.

It's not very hard since you lived at lower standards before becoming a dentist? Did you forget what it took to get accepted to dental school and all the work you put into dental school?

Sorry if I sound rude or offensive lol, I'm just saying all that time and effort deserves more.
 
I work for a dental mill currently, some days I work 6hrs some days I work 12hrs with no down time depending on the schedule, its not that hard compared to previous jobs I have had. As far as the oil rigs go both of my brothers work on the rigs they work 2 months on 2 weeks off 14 hour days with the only break in being transported from camp to the site. They both make around 120k a year and work way to hard for the $$$ and are away from their families a lot. I agree with the back pain issue though. I took a good CE course last year on posture and positioning in a dental chair which helps. When I was saying MD I was comparing DDS to a family doc, specialist are a different story. On a side note, how is the market for ortho in Cali? here in Colorado it is horrible, the office Im at gets docs coming in all the time to try and get referrals which there are not a lot of as most patients dont want to spend the money these days.
Oh, I see. How many years have you worked like this at this dental chain?

Ortho is doing fine here in CA. At the chain office where I work at, the ortho department produces about 1/3 of the overall office production. We easily beat the OS, endo, pedo and perio departments. And I only do ortho there 5 days a month.

Like the dental chain’s business model, I also try to keep the overhead very low at my own private office so I can charge my patients low fee. Many of my ortho colleagues largely ignore the low income families and only try to target the upper income families. That’s good for my business because my practice targets mainly the low income Hispanic and Asian families.
 
I just graduated from NYU with a debt of $430k+ (principle and accrued interest). I am currently looking for a job. I expect to have an income like 96k to 100k and expect to pay around $4000 a month for loan payment. I have never been working or pay tax before but from what I calculate from TurboTax, I would have to pay income tax around 13k a year (in California) with me filing jointly with my spouse and a kid (not sure if it's correct since every one saying you have to pay 35-40% of your income). So the math is: 100k - 13k - 48k = 39k

39k is what I bring home every year or 3250 a month

My 4 years in dental school, my wife and I spent like 800 a month for every thing (not including housing). So I would think that I can live with 3250 for about 10 years until I'm debt-free (not counting that my salary may increase about 30-50k a few years out) then we can start buy house, nice cars, etc.

I think it's not too bad like many people here think.

Thanks for sharing your experience, it's nice to hear from new grads. Have you considered looking into IBR, I think it's useful for because it gets you more cash flow early on so you can get more established quicker
 
It's not very hard since you lived at lower standards before becoming a dentist? Did you forget what it took to get accepted to dental school and all the work you put into dental school?

Sorry if I sound rude or offensive lol, I'm just saying all that time and effort deserves more.

What I mean is that keep your standard low until you pay all or most of your loan. After a few years, you would be doing just fine. Don't expect to live like a king right out of school. After all the debt paid off, you would have an income of 8000 or more each month for the rest of your career (say you're 40 by that time, 20 more years) then you can live "like a dentist." That would be better than you have a BS and make like 4000 before tax your whole like and always scare of being laid off.
 
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