How much of a problem is my lack of clinical experience for top schools?

[backsideatk]

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Hello all,

So in short my stats look like this: (I'm applying this coming June)

GPA (c & s): 3.8+

MCAT: balanced 34

Research: 2 years + pubs (1 first author, 2 not 1st), presentations, posters and all that jazz divided between 2 labs.

Volunteer work (non-med): 3.5 years heavily expanding a teaching related charity (related to life science, but not medicine). Several other small time volunteer related experiences.

Leadership: Leadership in the above mentioned experience as well as several on campus leadership experiences, one of which lasting 1 year + during the application year.

Artistic endeavors: Over 500 hours of artistic work outside classes (i'll have a portfolio ready, will this be something valuable to have btw?)

Teaching: I TA a premed req. class (all of this year plus during application year), and I tutor for the same class.

LoRs: I'll have a letter from the PI from the lab I worked more in, a science prof, art prof and others, all should be strong with no flags.

So from what I've heard these stats all seem good (aside from maybe the MCAT score being 1-2 points too low) but here's my concern.

I've shadowed one physician for 40 hours over a one month period (not a GP), and by the time the semester ends I'll have around 50-70 hours of hospital volunteering.

My concern is, how much will this lack of medical related work hurt me, and what I can do about it at this point. It'll be hard for me to just add more hours to my hospital volunteering, and next to impossible for me to get another physician to shadow (partly why I shadowed that one for so long).

Any advice would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!

 

[apumic]

Hello all,

So in short my stats look like this: (I'm applying this coming June)

GPA (c & s): 3.8+

MCAT: balanced 34

Research: 2 years + pubs (1 first author, 2 not 1st), presentations, posters and all that jazz divided between 2 labs.

Volunteer work (non-med): 3.5 years heavily expanding a teaching related charity (related to life science, but not medicine). Several other small time volunteer related experiences.

Leadership: Leadership in the above mentioned experience as well as several on campus leadership experiences, one of which lasting 1 year + during the application year.

Artistic endeavors: Over 500 hours of artistic work outside classes (i'll have a portfolio ready, will this be something valuable to have btw?)

Teaching: I TA a premed req. class (all of this year plus during application year), and I tutor for the same class.

LoRs: I'll have a letter from the PI from the lab I worked more in, a science prof, art prof and others, all should be strong with no flags.

So from what I've heard these stats all seem good (aside from maybe the MCAT score being 1-2 points too low) but here's my concern.

I've shadowed one physician for 40 hours over a one month period (not a GP), and by the time the semester ends I'll have around 50-70 hours of hospital volunteering.

My concern is, how much will this lack of medical related work hurt me, and what I can do about it at this point. It'll be hard for me to just add more hours to my hospital volunteering, and next to impossible for me to get another physician to shadow (partly why I shadowed that one for so long).

Any advice would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!

I saw no clinical experience OR even shadowing.

No clinical experience = no acceptance anywhere.
No shadowing = unlikely to get an acceptance most anywhere.

The rest of your app looks pretty good but a lack of clinical experience is pretty much an absolute deal-breaker no matter where you apply.

 

[CougarMD]

I saw no clinical experience OR even shadowing.

No clinical experience = no acceptance anywhere.
No shadowing = unlikely to get an acceptance most anywhere.

The rest of your app looks pretty good but a lack of clinical experience is pretty much an absolute deal-breaker no matter where you apply.

Seriously??? Since when is this true?


Also, I think OP said he has 40 hours of shadowing and 50-70 hours of hospital volunteering.....I assume close enough to smell patients...

 

[apumic]

Seriously??? Since when is this true?


Also, I think OP said he has 40 hours of shadowing and 50-70 hours of hospital volunteering.....I assume close enough to smell patients...

It's always been true. Sure, there are exceptions but for the most part, if you haven't done any shadowing and at least some clinical volunteering and/or clinical work, no adcom is likely to take you seriously. This was even how it was 30+ years ago when my dad was applying to med school.

I've shadowed one physician for 40 hours over a one month period (not a GP), and by the time the semester ends I'll have around 50-70 hours of hospital volunteering.

Yep...I see it now. Still, 40 hrs w/ one doc is unlikely to convince anyone of your interest. 8 hrs each w/ 5 docs would be a lot better, IMO -- esp. if it wasn't even w/ a doc in primary care. Do some broader shadowing.

50-70 hrs volunteering (clinical) is pretty minimalistic. Consider that that's less than 2 wks on a full time job. You'd still be near the beginning of your orientation if this were a hospital tech job! Keep in mind, as well, that pt contact as a hospital volunteer is usually minimal (typically less than even the non-CNA unit secretary). I'd get into a smaller free clinic setting if possible in addition to the hospital volunteering.

 

[SoyRicoSuave]

Minimal clinical experience is not idealistic but it is manageable. Best mode of action: Application EC loading. As in find a job or very devoted hospital volunteering job before you apply and say you will be continuing it till you graduate/attend med school. It will compensate a decent portion.

You obviously have good research experience so moral of the story is apply to schools that focus on research. Applying to a school with a mission statement that focuses on primary care or helping undeserved is a waste of your time, b/c they wont take you serious. Apply broadly and you may have a chance at a top tier school, especially since top tier schools tend to focus on research.

 

[CougarMD]

It's always been true. Sure, there are exceptions but for the most part, if you haven't done any shadowing and at least some clinical volunteering and/or clinical work, no adcom is likely to take you seriously. This was even how it was 30+ years ago when my dad was applying to med school.



Yep...I see it now. Still, 40 hrs w/ one doc is unlikely to convince anyone of your interest. 8 hrs each w/ 5 docs would be a lot better, IMO -- esp. if it wasn't even w/ a doc in primary care. Do some broader shadowing.

50-70 hrs volunteering (clinical) is pretty minimalistic. Consider that that's less than 2 wks on a full time job. You'd still be near the beginning of your orientation if this were a hospital tech job! Keep in mind, as well, that pt contact as a hospital volunteer is usually minimal (typically less than even the non-CNA unit secretary). I'd get into a smaller free clinic setting if possible in addition to the hospital volunteering.

I agree no clinical experience = bad times.

I meant the shadowing stuff. Since when is shadowing a requirement?

I had never even heard of shadowing until SDN. I certainly never did any. And no one asked me why I didn't shadow.....

I can see it as a good thing to bolster an application, especially for a traditional applicant who doesn't have a lot of work experience. But a necessity? Really?

I'm not bashing you, I truly am baffled🙂

 

[sevenseven]

I agree no clinical experience = bad times.

I meant the shadowing stuff. Since when is shadowing a requirement?

I had never even heard of shadowing until SDN. I certainly never did any. And no one asked me why I didn't shadow.....

I can see it as a good thing to bolster an application, especially for a traditional applicant who doesn't have a lot of work experience. But a necessity? Really?

I'm not bashing you, I truly am baffled🙂

Anyway, clinical experience is important.

 

[raltima07]

I agree no clinical experience = bad times.

I meant the shadowing stuff. Since when is shadowing a requirement?

I had never even heard of shadowing until SDN. I certainly never did any. And no one asked me why I didn't shadow.....

I can see it as a good thing to bolster an application, especially for a traditional applicant who doesn't have a lot of work experience. But a necessity? Really?

I'm not bashing you, I truly am baffled🙂

This brings up a good point; before SDN (or outside of it), how many people actually shadow and whatnot?

 

[wanderer]

Plenty of people get in with no shadowing at all. It's not ideal, but definitely possible.
I think that shadowing was my most informative experience though, so I would still do it even if I thought it didn't improve my chances at all.

 

[Obliquity]

The only medically-related activites I had were hospital volunteering (90 hours), shadowing one doctor (20 hours), and Red Cross volunteering (10 hours).

No research.

I did have a lot of music-related activities, so it wasn't like all I did was play videogames after class. However, you really don't need a ton of medically-relevant activities if you can make apparent your desire and knowledge about the medical profession.

to the OP: this is SDN, so the data pool will skew...

 

[rhcarolina]

I think shadowing is more important for the individual rather than the application. You should get a feel for what a physician actually does and you should feel it is the right career (I think 40 hours is more than enough to get a feel...). According to one of my interviewers, that's really all an admissions committee is looking for in shadowing experience.

 

[backsideatk]

so the take away from all of this, is try to get more clinical experience? (if anyone was wondering, I do smell patients and I do interact with them regularly in my clinical experience ... they smell pretty foul sometimes)

Is there are target I should look for? Also should I prioritize shadowing or more clinical volunteering?

 

[abcabc1]

Hello all,

So in short my stats look like this: (I'm applying this coming June)

GPA (c & s): 3.8+

MCAT: balanced 34

Research: 2 years + pubs (1 first author, 2 not 1st), presentations, posters and all that jazz divided between 2 labs.

Volunteer work (non-med): 3.5 years heavily expanding a teaching related charity (related to life science, but not medicine). Several other small time volunteer related experiences.

Leadership: Leadership in the above mentioned experience as well as several on campus leadership experiences, one of which lasting 1 year + during the application year.

Artistic endeavors: Over 500 hours of artistic work outside classes (i'll have a portfolio ready, will this be something valuable to have btw?)

Teaching: I TA a premed req. class (all of this year plus during application year), and I tutor for the same class.

LoRs: I'll have a letter from the PI from the lab I worked more in, a science prof, art prof and others, all should be strong with no flags.

So from what I've heard these stats all seem good (aside from maybe the MCAT score being 1-2 points too low) but here's my concern.

I've shadowed one physician for 40 hours over a one month period (not a GP), and by the time the semester ends I'll have around 50-70 hours of hospital volunteering.

My concern is, how much will this lack of medical related work hurt me, and what I can do about it at this point. It'll be hard for me to just add more hours to my hospital volunteering, and next to impossible for me to get another physician to shadow (partly why I shadowed that one for so long).

Any advice would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!

You have enough. I agree with those who say you don't need that much clinical 'experience.' Remember, as a ugrad student, all you can really do is watch anyway. Some places will let you do a bit more as a volunteer, but you just want to have some exposure to the field as a way to justify that Medicine is the right field for you.

If you can add some hospital volunteering this Summer, that could help. Your research and lab experience will help. It's nice to have experience and your name on a few papers. You appear to be a strong applicant. My guess is you'll do quite well in the process. If it comes down to a state school vs a more well known private, think carefully before taking on the higher debt burden. GL!

 

[LizzyM]

Do keep in mind that schools will wonder if you have enough experience to know that this is the right choice for you. It is very hard to get off the merry-go-round once you get on: almost every student borrows some amount to attend school and the ability to pay back the debt is less if one chooses not to practice medicine. Furthermore, the school, even a private school, is investing in you (tuition never covers the cost of providing the education) and wants to be sure it is choosing applicants who know something about what it is to be a physician and who are ready to accept the challenges presented by a career in medicine.

You may be asked why you are not choosing teaching given the amount of time you've devoted to that activity. If you are interested in medicine, try spending more time in clinical settings.

 

[Obliquity]

so the take away from all of this, is try to get more clinical experience? (if anyone was wondering, I do smell patients and I do interact with them regularly in my clinical experience ... they smell pretty foul sometimes)

Is there are target I should look for? Also should I prioritize shadowing or more clinical volunteering?

I think the takeaway is that you're application is perfectly fine, and the insanity that is SDN is trying to convince you (no offense to any previous posters) that you need to be a super applicant (34 MCAT being 1-2 points too low you say? you don't need a 98th percentile score to get in - yours is what, 90th+ percentile? you can get an interview anywhere with a 34 and a 3.8+, and don't believe anyone on these boards that says otherwise).

Sure, more hours couldn't hurt, but no, there isn't a target. There is no one-amount-of-hours-fits-all that leads to the golden ticket of a medical school acceptance. Your artistic endeavors are not to be overlooked. I was asked about my music stuff at every interview. Med schools want real, well-rounded people, and the artistic stuff will give you a leg up over the research/medical only people.

Sorry if this was rantish... I just feel like sometimes the SDN community needs to take a breather and realize that this forum breeds insanity and levels of self-doubt that are neither rational nor healthy. With the info you've provided, you should get into medical school provided you interview well. Remember to apply to a range of schools!
😀😀😀😀

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Seriously...I second the person above me. Maybe try to load up some more hospital hours and keep doing that through the summer but this is not as dire as people are making it out to be. I had very little (compared to others I've seen) clinical experience, lots of research (like you), and some shadowing. You'll definitely be picking up some interviews as long as you don't apply to ALL very highly ranked schools. Remember that many schools with big research dollars like to see someone with a large amount of research under their belt, as it means they are probably gonna like that in med school too.

I think the biggest problem you'll run into in interviews are interviewers asking you why you're choosing med school instead of whatever science grad school. You'll have to think up a good explanation for that (can't really help you with that one) but if you have some good experiences in your life that you can explain made you want to go the med school route, it shouldn't be such a big deal. Like I said keep trying to rack up those hospital hours but don't worry about the shadowing. Overall you're looking pretty strong and it looks like you'll have some good experiences to talk about in interviews.

 

[apumic]

I think the takeaway is that you're application is perfectly fine, and the insanity that is SDN is trying to convince you (no offense to any previous posters) that you need to be a super applicant (34 MCAT being 1-2 points too low you say? you don't need a 98th percentile score to get in - yours is what, 90th+ percentile? you can get an interview anywhere with a 34 and a 3.8+, and don't believe anyone on these boards that says otherwise).

Sure, more hours couldn't hurt, but no, there isn't a target. There is no one-amount-of-hours-fits-all that leads to the golden ticket of a medical school acceptance. Your artistic endeavors are not to be overlooked. I was asked about my music stuff at every interview. Med schools want real, well-rounded people, and the artistic stuff will give you a leg up over the research/medical only people.

Sorry if this was rantish... I just feel like sometimes the SDN community needs to take a breather and realize that this forum breeds insanity and levels of self-doubt that are neither rational nor healthy. With the info you've provided, you should get into medical school provided you interview well. Remember to apply to a range of schools!
😀😀😀😀

No one said the objective stats weren't good enough (3.8+/mid-30s is obviously great). It's a lack of strong clinical experience that will likely kill the OP's app. A lack of clinical experience is likely one of the major factors that allows for there to be around 5-10% of applicants with his stats that don't get in each year. If you don't believe me, look at the post above yours. Lizzy's reasoning here is exactly what I was thinking when I posted. Minimal clinical experience raises doubts as to whether you have any idea what you're getting yourself into. You can claim "the insanity of SDN" all you want and doubt the pre-meds (traditional and nontraditional) all you want, but when an adcom comes in and tells you this, it'd be wise not to make even further of a fool of yourself. 😉

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

you can get an interview anywhere with a 34 and a 3.8+, and don't believe anyone on these boards that says otherwise).
...
With the info you've provided, you should get into medical school provided you interview well. Remember to apply to a range of schools!
😀😀😀😀

I personally think sdn overplays the shadowing requirement. If you're currently involved in some clinical activities, then just continue them into the app cycle. You don't need to stockpile them from here on out, but you don't want to look like you quit them all as soon as you submit the app either.

You do have a strong app, but i'll be the first to say that "can interview" /= "will interview". applying broadly will ensure you get a solid amount of attention.

 

[Lil Mick]

It's fine for MD/PhD, but you probably need more clinical experience if you are planning to apply MD. There are other ways to get clinical experiences other than shadowing/ER help; for instance, I did some work in public health and volunteered at a free clinic (definitely more hands-on than many of my classmates who shadowed for experience).

 

[Geekchick921]

I agree no clinical experience = bad times.

I meant the shadowing stuff. Since when is shadowing a requirement?

I had never even heard of shadowing until SDN. I certainly never did any. And no one asked me why I didn't shadow.....

I can see it as a good thing to bolster an application, especially for a traditional applicant who doesn't have a lot of work experience. But a necessity? Really?

I'm not bashing you, I truly am baffled🙂

Ditto all around.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

something tells me apumic is going to be fed a lot of humble pie in medicine..

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

It's a lack of strong clinical experience that will likely kill the OP's app.

It is not going to "kill" anyone's app if, like I said, he can have a good, heartfelt reason for applying to medical school. If he's decided he wants money, fame and power...well yeah its not gonna work out so well.

Minimal clinical experience raises doubts as to whether you have any idea what you're getting yourself into.

You don't know what you're getting yourself into...I don't know what I'm getting myself into. Saying that because you logged in 1000+ hours in a hospital giving people water and wheeling them around in wheelchairs (while helpful) makes you "know what you're getting into" makes no sense and would most likely sound stupid to whoever you're saying that to.

when an adcom comes in and tells you this, it'd be wise not to make even further of a fool of yourself.

Yeah who just said keep doing some clinical experience, not, as you so wisely put it

No clinical experience = no acceptance anywhere.
No shadowing = unlikely to get an acceptance most anywhere.

Even if she were to say you absolutely need all the clinical experience you can get, as you can see from the responses there are a decent amount of people who haven't logged in thousands of hours in the hospital and shadowing who did just fine. Does it help? Absolutely. Does it mean your app gets thrown in the trash if you don't? As you can see by searching through SDN yourself, NO.

A lack of clinical experience is likely one of the major factors that allows for there to be around 5-10% of applicants with his stats that don't get in each year.

Haha what? How do you know? It could be that...or it could be that they interview horribly or it could be that they applied to too many top schools or it could be that they applied too late or it could be...any number of other reasons.

 

[Obliquity]

No one said the objective stats weren't good enough (3.8+/mid-30s is obviously great). It's a lack of strong clinical experience that will likely kill the OP's app. A lack of clinical experience is likely one of the major factors that allows for there to be around 5-10% of applicants with his stats that don't get in each year. If you don't believe me, look at the post above yours. Lizzy's reasoning here is exactly what I was thinking when I posted. Minimal clinical experience raises doubts as to whether you have any idea what you're getting yourself into. You can claim "the insanity of SDN" all you want and doubt the pre-meds (traditional and nontraditional) all you want, but when an adcom comes in and tells you this, it'd be wise not to make even further of a fool of yourself. 😉

I was more responding to the OP about stats not being high enough (the OP said the MCAT score was 1-2 points "too low")...

As for making a fool of myself, I did manage 8 interviews out of 18 apps, and 5 acceptances (and 2 WL and a withdraw), with stats and clinical experience very similar to the OP (in other words, I spoke from experience, not from out of a certain orifice). Not once was I asked about any "lack" of clinical experience in any interview. I don't have any research (or a super high MCAT), which is probably why the super-NIH schools didn't invite me for a chat.

Is LizzyM more knowledgeable than the rest of the posters on the thread? I'd say yes. However, as I said before, SDN is not a snapshot of the average applicant. The OP will have 90-110 hours of clinical experience when applying. If 90 hours isn't enough to figure out if you like something, what is? Where do you draw the line? Do you like something after 50 and then hate it after 150? Do you only understand a profession after 200 hours of seeing it close up? The point is that if you can prove you understand what you're getting yourself into (which can be done through the personal statement, secondaries, and interviews) then that's all that matters.

(Also, the internet sucks for conveying tone. This isn't intended as a defensive, condescending post where one tries to make apparent a superiority complex. Rather, a relaxed response that this poster hopes is taken for what it is - one person's opinion in response to another's.) 🙂

 

[Geekchick921]

something tells me apumic is going to be fed a lot of humble pie in medicine..

Mhmm.
And parenthood.

 

[apumic]

It is not going to "kill" anyone's app if, like I said, he can have a good, heartfelt reason for applying to medical school. If he's decided he wants money, fame and power...well yeah its not gonna work out so well.



You don't know what you're getting yourself into...I don't know what I'm getting myself into. Saying that because you logged in 1000+ hours in a hospital giving people water and wheeling them around in wheelchairs (while helpful) makes you "know what you're getting into" makes no sense and would most likely sound stupid to whoever you're saying that to.



Yeah who just said keep doing some clinical experience, not, as you so wisely put it



Even if she were to say you absolutely need all the clinical experience you can get, as you can see from the responses there are a decent amount of people who haven't logged in thousands of hours in the hospital and shadowing who did just fine. Does it help? Absolutely. Does it mean your app gets thrown in the trash if you don't? As you can see by searching through SDN yourself, NO.



Haha what? How do you know? It could be that...or it could be that they interview horribly or it could be that they applied to too many top schools or it could be that they applied too late or it could be...any number of other reasons.

Your post isn't really worth my time, but there are always exceptions and I am not saying it's a definite no-go -- nothing ever is -- but clinical experience is a major criterion at most schools. It is more crucial than research or any other criterion. Such a small amount is likely to make interviews and a good PS more difficult. It may also reduce opportunities for good LORs. As far as the "I don't know what I'm getting myself into" B.S., I suspect I may personally be a bit more aware than the average premed (not to say I "know what I am getting myself into" but I have actually gotten to do procedures alongside my docs; I've gotten to assist with things; etc. -- I don't wheel my pts around the ER nor just get them blankets and water, although those are important things to those pts at the time, trust me).

 

[apumic]

something tells me apumic is going to be fed a lot of humble pie in medicine..

Me on the internet = blunt and often using hyperbole to make a point
Me in real life = much more subtle and strategic in communication

I don't really think it'll be an issue. Here, though, where everyone is high-strung and throwing rocks...well, admittedly, I join in sometimes (ok, a lot of times, haha).

However, I will take your "advice" into consideration.

 

[bucks2010]

Your post isn't really worth my time,

 

[apumic]

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Your post isn't really worth my time

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Your post isn't really worth my time, but there are always exceptions and I am not saying it's a definite no-go

orly?

No clinical experience = no acceptance anywhere.

lack of clinical experience is pretty much an absolute deal-breaker no matter where you apply.

juss sayin..

clinical experience is a major criterion at most schools. It is more crucial than research or any other criterion.

actually, it is abundantly clear that the applicant's numbers are more important than any other criterion, but carry on

 

[apumic]

orly?

juss sayin..


actually, it is abundantly clear that the applicant's numbers are more important than any other criterion, but carry on

Sorry....let's rephrase that -- once the numbers get you past the front gates, clinical experience (and ability to sell it) is likely the most important factor. That is, it generally outranks research, leadership, volunteering, etc. It is generally considered #1 amongst the ECs. The numbers can only get you so far. Clinical experience always weighs strongly into a good PS, interviews, and LORs.

 

[skyhyp2009]

Hello all,

So in short my stats look like this: (I'm applying this coming June)

GPA (c & s): 3.8+

MCAT: balanced 34

Research: 2 years + pubs (1 first author, 2 not 1st), presentations, posters and all that jazz divided between 2 labs.

Volunteer work (non-med): 3.5 years heavily expanding a teaching related charity (related to life science, but not medicine). Several other small time volunteer related experiences.

Leadership: Leadership in the above mentioned experience as well as several on campus leadership experiences, one of which lasting 1 year + during the application year.

Artistic endeavors: Over 500 hours of artistic work outside classes (i'll have a portfolio ready, will this be something valuable to have btw?)

Teaching: I TA a premed req. class (all of this year plus during application year), and I tutor for the same class.

LoRs: I'll have a letter from the PI from the lab I worked more in, a science prof, art prof and others, all should be strong with no flags.

So from what I've heard these stats all seem good (aside from maybe the MCAT score being 1-2 points too low) but here's my concern.

I've shadowed one physician for 40 hours over a one month period (not a GP), and by the time the semester ends I'll have around 50-70 hours of hospital volunteering.

My concern is, how much will this lack of medical related work hurt me, and what I can do about it at this point. It'll be hard for me to just add more hours to my hospital volunteering, and next to impossible for me to get another physician to shadow (partly why I shadowed that one for so long).

Any advice would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!

As far as medical schools are concerned...I never shadowed (it was never in my activities/experiences or my personal statement) but I still have multiple acceptances. My school premed counselors have repeatedly told me that shadowing is next to useless so I never really pursued it all that much.....sooooo yeah shadowing is definitely overrated...

But clinical volunteering is pretty important IMO.....I mean how do you know if you want to be a doctor if you've never seen patients =/

Also, it might just be me, but in my experience, some of the top schools never seemed to care all that much about my hospital/clinical experiences and asked me much more about my research. One of my interviewers (bet you can all guess where in one shot) mentioned quite bluntly that his school was for those who want to be a part of "groundbreaking and world-changing" research and not for people seeking to be "lowly" clinical doctors. So...I suppose it depends on the school.

 

[Negrodamus]

Sorry....let's rephrase that -- once the numbers get you past the front gates, clinical experience (and ability to sell it) is likely the most important factor. That is, it generally outranks research, leadership, volunteering, etc. It is generally considered #1 amongst the ECs. The numbers can only get you so far. Clinical experience always weighs strongly into a good PS, interviews, and LORs.

Statically speaking, research is more important than medically related work and volunteering.

 

[abcabc1]

No one said the objective stats weren't good enough (3.8+/mid-30s is obviously great). It's a lack of strong clinical experience that will likely kill the OP's app. A lack of clinical experience is likely one of the major factors that allows for there to be around 5-10% of applicants with his stats that don't get in each year. If you don't believe me, look at the post above yours. Lizzy's reasoning here is exactly what I was thinking when I posted. Minimal clinical experience raises doubts as to whether you have any idea what you're getting yourself into. You can claim "the insanity of SDN" all you want and doubt the pre-meds (traditional and nontraditional) all you want, but when an adcom comes in and tells you this, it'd be wise not to make even further of a fool of yourself. 😉

How much experience do most pre-meds have and, more importantly, what does that experience teach them about what it's like to be a practicing doctor? The answer to the 2nd question is virtually nothing. If you shadow, you basically just sit and observed. For legal reasons, you can't do much more than that (there are exceptions, but your ability to get involved is limited).

Volunteering may give a bit more exposure, but not much. I've done both and don't think either was that indicative of what practice is like. Remember, what practicing doctors hate about their jobs are things like declining reimbursements, lack of autonomy, dealing with insurance BS, etc. You can't appreciate this while shadowing or volunteering, even if your preceptor tells you about these things.

The OP's supposedly minimal clinical experience is NOT going to kill his/her application. My guess is this applicant will have multiple acceptances, barring any weaknesses that were not revealed in this forum. There are people going into Medicine thinking they are going to make money hand over fist and men going in thinking they will have to fight the ladies off with a stick. My sense is the OP's understanding of the field is much more in line with reality than someone who thinks that they will be a hotshot Doctor.

 

[wanderer]

Me on the internet = blunt and often using hyperbole to make a point
Me in real life = much more subtle and strategic in communication

I don't really think it'll be an issue. Here, though, where everyone is high-strung and throwing rocks...well, admittedly, I join in sometimes (ok, a lot of times, haha).

However, I will take your "advice" into consideration.

The constant hyperboles being thrown around in this forum (especially in the WAMC section) are the main reason SDN has a pretty poor reputation among many premeds and adcoms. There are too many threads where someone comes along and says "You have 3.9/35 but since you have no community service you will not get into any schools." I think there are way too many posters (many of them premeds, coincidence much?) talking in absolutes and hyperboles.

Some common myths I see a lot on SDN:
You need (non-medical) community service to get into medical school.
You need 2 years of research to get into top 20 schools.
Without shadowing spread over a few different fields it's very difficult to get accepted to schools.
If you do nothing to distinguish yourself (via ECs and hobbies) you will not get into schools.

All of these are very misleading and yet you see them all the time on here.

Yes I do think that the typical applicant should have a year of clinical experience prior to applying, but if he has strengths in other areas, or if he applies very broadly and early, he will have a successful application cycle.

 

[apumic]

The constant hyperboles being thrown around in this forum (especially in the WAMC section) are the main reason SDN has a pretty poor reputation among many premeds and adcoms. There are too many threads where someone comes along and says "You have 3.9/35 but since you have no community service you will not get into any schools." I think there are way too many posters (many of them premeds, coincidence much?) talking in absolutes and hyperboles.

Some common myths I see a lot on SDN:
You need (non-medical) community service to get into medical school.
You need 2 years of research to get into top 20 schools.
Without shadowing spread over a few different fields it's very difficult to get accepted to schools.
If you do nothing to distinguish yourself (via ECs and hobbies) you will not get into schools.

All of these are very misleading and yet you see them all the time on here.

Yes I do think that the typical applicant should have a year of clinical experience prior to applying, but if he has strengths in other areas, or if he applies very broadly and early, he will have a successful application cycle.

I tend to agree w/ you here. However, I suspect this is due to the medium. Forums aren't really a place for easy-going discussion, IME. It seems that they are more of a place where statements are made, rebutted, etc. In other words, there is a lack of subtly by the very nature of the medium. This is especially true in an antagonistic atmosphere like the SDN premed forums. Is it any wonder things are overstated?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

clinical experience (and ability to sell it) is likely the most important factor. That is, it generally outranks research, leadership, volunteering, etc. It is generally considered #1 amongst the ECs.

Is it any wonder things are overstated?

Not when you say hilarious things like this. I'll throw my hat in with the others when I say I was asked a handful of times about my "official" clinical experience in all 10 of my interviews. It's true that if you write your PS about it that it'll come up because it's obviously a big thing for you...barring that though interviewers will most likely want to talk about whatever you write your PS about (from my personal experience) and whatever activities seem most consistent to them.

Oh and bust open your MSAR and take a look at research oriented schools. The amount of matriculants who did research is usually higher than the amount who volunteered.

 

[blehm98]

The constant hyperboles being thrown around in this forum (especially in the WAMC section) are the main reason SDN has a pretty poor reputation among many premeds and adcoms. There are too many threads where someone comes along and says "You have 3.9/35 but since you have no community service you will not get into any schools." I think there are way too many posters (many of them premeds, coincidence much?) talking in absolutes and hyperboles.

Some common myths I see a lot on SDN:
You need (non-medical) community service to get into medical school.
You need 2 years of research to get into top 20 schools.
Without shadowing spread over a few different fields it's very difficult to get accepted to schools.
If you do nothing to distinguish yourself (via ECs and hobbies) you will not get into schools.

All of these are very misleading and yet you see them all the time on here.

Yes I do think that the typical applicant should have a year of clinical experience prior to applying, but if he has strengths in other areas, or if he applies very broadly and early, he will have a successful application cycle.

well they're not really true, but they are good generalizations, in that very strong applicants will tend to exhibit those features. I mean if you check the chart of admissions statistics, there are surprisingly many matriculants with sub 3.0 gpas, but no one shoots for a 3.0, and no one would ever say you'll be fine with a 3.0. If you want advice, you'll get blunt generalized advice, even if it isn't necessarily true it is generally so

 

[chiapet874]

I honestly think OP is going to be fine. As long as you apply broadly, you will have no problem getting interviews with stats like those.

 

[Narmerguy]

The constant hyperboles being thrown around in this forum (especially in the WAMC section) are the main reason SDN has a pretty poor reputation among many premeds and adcoms. There are too many threads where someone comes along and says "You have 3.9/35 but since you have no community service you will not get into any schools." I think there are way too many posters (many of them premeds, coincidence much?) talking in absolutes and hyperboles.

Some common myths I see a lot on SDN:
You need (non-medical) community service to get into medical school.
You need 2 years of research to get into top 20 schools.
Without shadowing spread over a few different fields it's very difficult to get accepted to schools.
If you do nothing to distinguish yourself (via ECs and hobbies) you will not get into schools.

All of these are very misleading and yet you see them all the time on here.

Yes I do think that the typical applicant should have a year of clinical experience prior to applying, but if he has strengths in other areas, or if he applies very broadly and early, he will have a successful application cycle.

What's being ignored in this post and probably the majority of responses is that the OP did not ask if his stats is good enough for acceptances and interviews. Clearly he's aware that he will get accepted somewhere and that his lack of some clinical experience will not inhibit him from getting into medical school.

The OP specifically asked about top schools. The name of the game at top schools is being unique while excelling at the regular. So yes, that means you need to do more than the bare minimum. That means you need to somehow distinguish yourself from the thousands of other applicants all wanting the same spot. A lot of times significant research is a way to accomplish that. Sometimes it's intense volunteerism, other times it's a special display of leadership potential. Most likely you don't have to be great at all of these, but you certainly aren't going to turn any heads being mediocre at them either. You have to bring something interesting to the table, if nothing else because they could fill their classes with hundreds of robots that know how to do nothing else but study for GPA/MCAT while making sure they've got the bare minimum.

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

The purpose of clinical experience is to expose you to the health care setting. You people are making too big of a deal of this. The OP has very good stats and with 50 hrs or whatever of shadowing has clearly explored how medicine is practiced. Do you guys really think that you can't get accepted unless you stock shelves/answer phones at a hospital? If you can find a rewarding volunteer position in a clinic then take it, but what the ADCOMs really want to see is that you've thoroughly spent time making sure that medicine is right for you. It's not just the volunteering bit that makes or breaks your app with regard to clinical experience. You can do other volunteering to show that you have a commitment to helping others. I do agree that the OP should spread out the shadowing into multiple, and preferentially, primary care related fields (PC, IM, peds, family practice, etc.). Honestly, good clinical experience is hard to come by. Personally, I'm taking 16 credits, researching, volunteering, prepping for MCAT, and shadowing. Where the hell would an admissions committee think that I have hundreds of hours to dedicate to clinical volunteering? Every app is somewhat different.

 

[backsideatk]

sorry to bump this threat, but I just had two quick questions, one of which I had from before that was never answer, one of which is new.

1. is it a good idea to prepare an artists portfolio? If so, how should I submit it? With the app? or should I just bring it as a showpiece to interviews?

2. My transcript has one W on it. I hear it doesn't really matter if it's just one, and that I'm probably being antsy by bringing it up, but it's just for peace of mind I suppose.

 

[Frazier]

sorry to bump this threat, but I just had two quick questions, one of which I had from before that was never answer, one of which is new.

1. is it a good idea to prepare an artists portfolio? If so, how should I submit it? With the app? or should I just bring it as a showpiece to interviews?

2. My transcript has one W on it. I hear it doesn't really matter if it's just one, and that I'm probably being antsy by bringing it up, but it's just for peace of mind I suppose.

Your W won't hurt.
Bring a couple pics of your work in a folder to your interview. Interesting conversation point.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Mhmm.
And parenthood.

+1 for hidden text 😀