How much of an effect does being URM do for an application?

[Sandstorm]

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LOL, OK, agreed.

Edit: If it sounded threatening it was half-joking. I don't know LizzyM, and I wouldn't attack her or any high-ranking person on SDN because I'm too paranoid about somebody getting my info. I don't care if you disagree with the argument. I wasn't threatening your opinion, I was responding to the joke comment.

Which I quite quickly apologized for.

And while you're right, personal attacks should not be acceptable, nor should making people be afraid to speak their mind on what is supposed to be an anonymous forum.

 

[wolfie77]

I assumed from the arguments you made that you support the concepts of "leveling the playing field" and equality of achievement I discussed.



The underlying assumption in the video is that it is American society as a whole that contributes to the disparate outcomes. Well, gangs in the inner cities must shoulder the responsibility for adding massively to the stress of law-abiding members of their own community.

You still didn't answer my question: what did donation levels have to do with anything?

Also, i'm sure inner city gangs have a lot to do with high levels of stress (but how these might affect the high-income black woman in the video, Idk). These are not an "either-or" problems. I'm sure gangs + racism + a lot of other crap add to the issue.

 

[lobo.solo]

If you don't know the relatively tiny percentage of Mormons in this country...

Second, your straw man is almost clever, with the exception that there were no data or serious studies in the video you posted. Even Michael Moore could have done better.

Here is a link that has the 10 main sources for the production of the documentary.
http://www.unnaturalcauses.org/resources.php

Again, the sources used were formal scholarly books, published peer-review articles, etc. so the data is there.

and your point about the mormon church is????? My point was that conservatives donate to charities because they benefit themselves, not because it comes from the kindness of their heart.

 

[Dave89]

You still didn't answer my question: what did donation levels have to do with anything?

To demonstrate that to be opposed to government playing God is not to be opposed to fairness and equality.

Also, i'm sure inner city gangs have a lot to do with high levels of stress (but how these might affect the high-income black woman in the video, Idk). These are not an "either-or" problems. I'm sure gangs + racism + a lot of other crap add to the issue.

Ahhh, but the video conveniently left that out, didn't it? All they mentioned was a sort of whites-versus-"African Americans" disparity.

 

[LizzyM]

<snip>conservatives donate to charities because they benefit themselves, not because it comes from the kindness of their heart.

Conservatives donate to charities because it meshes with their philosophy of smaller government and personal responsibility. If you accept personal responsibility to do what is within your means to help the poor, support the arts, religious organizations, schools, medical research & civic institutions, and contribute to society, then you will give of your time and treasure.

 

[FattySlug]

While everyone is on this debate, what are your thoughts on the fact that the number Asian students get actively "contained" by colleges who do not have race blind admissions?

 

[wolfie77]

To demonstrate that to be opposed to government playing God is not to be opposed to fairness and equality.



Ahhh, but the video conveniently left that out, didn't it? All they mentioned was a sort of whites-versus-"African Americans" disparity.

To demonstrate that to be opposed to government playing God is not to be opposed to fairness and equality. .......sure.....sounds more like you were just trying to change the conversation completely.



Ahhh, but the video conveniently left that out, didn't it? All they mentioned was a sort of whites-versus-"African Americans" disparity.
I'm sure you're a smart fellow. You know that research proceeds within certain paradigms. This research is looking into racial disparities. That doesn't make the racial disparities untrue and neither does it make them the whole explanation. To publicize a certain piece of research is not a political act or a dishonest act, no matter how much you don't like it.

If you feel so strongly about this, do your own research into disparities. Use other factors and other paradigms. Help all of society get closer to the truth.

 

[Dave89]

Conservatives donate to charities because it meshes with their philosophy of smaller government and personal responsibility. If you accept personal responsibility to do what is within your means to help the poor, support the arts, religious organizations, schools, medical research & civic institutions, and contribute to society, then you will give of your time and treasure.

👍

While everyone is on this debate, what are your thoughts on the fact that the number Asian students get actively "contained" by colleges who do not have race blind admissions?

An unfortunate yet entirely predictable product of progressive social engineering.

 

[wolfie77]

Out of curiosity, Dave, where do you go to med school?

 

[Dave89]

Out of curiosity, Dave, where do you go to med school?

 

[wolfie77]

Fine.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

While everyone is on this debate, what are your thoughts on the fact that the number Asian students get actively "contained" by colleges who do not have race blind admissions?

On a related note, while everyone disses URM and AA, why is that far more Whites are accepted compared to Asians when we know that Asians have a slight edge on stats?

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Fine.

I'm guessing somewhere in the bible belt or the South.

 

[wolfie77]

I'm guessing somewhere in the bible belt or the South.

Maybe but maybe not. Joe Walsh somehow got elected from the Chicago NW suburbs, Pete "Red Scare" King is from NY, Tom Tancredo is from Colorado, Michelle Bachmann is from Minnesota.

Extreme right-wing ideas are not secluded to one particular part of the country.

 

[FattySlug]

On a related note, while everyone disses URM and AA, why is that far more Whites are accepted compared to Asians when we know that Asians have a slight edge on stats?

I think traditionally they chalk it up to whites being more well rounded applicants and Asians are a bunch of socially awkward kids with no personality.

 

[LizzyM]

On a related note, while everyone disses URM and AA, why is that far more Whites are accepted compared to Asians when we know that Asians have a slight edge on stats?

Because stats aren't everything. Some students with high stats are non-native speakers of English and their accents make them very hard to understand. Some even have trouble expressing themselves in spoken English. Some applicants with high stats have been sheltered from life experiences and are rather thin, or stereotypical, in that regard bringing little or nothing very intersting to the table (e.g. played violin or piano for 17 years, 3 months of volunteering in pediatric ward, 1 summer of research, end of story). Some applicants come across as immature or appear to have been pressured by family to enter medicine and therefore don't do well on the "why medicine" question.

 

[Yonko Shanks]

I think traditionally they chalk it up to whites being more well rounded applicants and Asians are a bunch of socially awkward kids with no personality.

lol.

 

[FattySlug]

Because stats aren't everything. Some students with high stats are non-native speakers of English and their accents make them very hard to understand. Some even have trouble expressing themselves in spoken English. Some applicants with high stats have been sheltered from life experiences and are rather thin, or stereotypical, in that regard bringing little or nothing very intersting to the table (e.g. played violin or piano for 17 years, 3 months of volunteering in pediatric ward, 1 summer of research, end of story). Some applicants come across as immature or appear to have been pressured by family to enter medicine and therefore don't do well on the "why medicine" question.

I think the number of non native speaker applying to med school is not high enough to have a significant impact. Do you encounter this often during interview season? I know quite a few Asians attending medical schools and nearly all of them were born here or came over young enough for English not to be a problem.

As for the other possible reasons you mention, are white students generally less sheltered, more mature, more interesting and richer life experience? I feel like this variation exist in either applicant pool. There are cookie cutter applicants and there are interesting ones.

 

[tn4596]

Because stats aren't everything. Some students with high stats are non-native speakers of English and their accents make them very hard to understand. Some even have trouble expressing themselves in spoken English. Some applicants with high stats have been sheltered from life experiences and are rather thin, or stereotypical, in that regard bringing little or nothing very intersting to the table (e.g. played violin or piano for 17 years, 3 months of volunteering in pediatric ward, 1 summer of research, end of story). Some applicants come across as immature or appear to have been pressured by family to enter medicine and therefore don't do well on the "why medicine" question.

These can't be the only reasons for said disparities. Is there no racial quota? No attitude of "be the best of your races or ethnicities and you will get in?" These are all negative stereotypical remarks that you are focusing on. You saw Asian applicants and immediately correlate that with: sheltered, boring, pressured to do medicine by family as if applicants from other races do not share these problems. Even if these are the experiences that you have had with Asian applicants, I feel that you are shortsighted to generalize and correlate these negative comments to an entire race. Asians comprised of many different ethnicities and come from various upbringings and cultures. Most are bilingual which is an huge asset. What percentage of white applicants that know another language other than what they learn in high school Spanish? /rant

 

[Arbor Vitae]

These can't be the only reasons for said disparities. Is there no racial quota? No attitude of "be the best of your races or ethnicities and you will get in?" These are all negative stereotypical remarks that you are focusing on. You saw Asian applicants and immediately correlate that with: sheltered, boring, pressured to do medicine by family as if applicants from other races do not share these problems. Asians comprised of many different ethnicities and come from various upbringings and cultures. Most are bilingual which is an huge asset. What percentage of white applicants that know another language other than what they learn in high school Spanish? /rant

I think she meant in comparison to other applicants in interviews, these are the reasons why many of them don't interview well. Also the multitude of languages that Asians speak are not as highly used in comparison to English and Spanish in America. Being a native speaker of an Asian language isn't useful in America if you can't effectively communicate in English, which is exactly the reason why I changed my PCP.

 

[sibitrum]

These can't be the only reasons for said disparities. Is there no racial quota? No attitude of "be the best of your races or ethnicities and you will get in?" These are all negative stereotypical remarks that you are focusing on. You saw Asian applicants and immediately correlate that with: sheltered, boring, pressured to do medicine by family as if applicants from other races do not share these problems. Even if these are the experiences that you have had with Asian applicants, I feel that you are shortsighted to generalize and correlate these negative comments to an entire race. Asians comprised of many different ethnicities and come from various upbringings and cultures. Most are bilingual which is an huge asset. What percentage of white applicants that know another language other than what they learn in high school Spanish? /rant

I agree. It's funny how supporters of affirmative action view this. All negative generalities are ok and completely within control of the individual if applied to whites or Asians. Any negative generalities applied to URMs are racist stereotypes or are things that are completely out of control of the URM individual.

 

[Dave89]

I agree. It's funny how supporters of affirmative action view this. All negative generalities are ok and completely within control of the individual if applied to whites or Asians. Any negative generalities applied to URMs are racist stereotypes or are things that are completely out of control of the URM individual.

Again, it's crucial to distinguish between AA and URM.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

I agree. It's funny how supporters of affirmative action view this. All negative generalities are ok and completely within control of the individual if applied to whites or Asians. Any negative generalities applied to URMs are racist stereotypes or are things that are completely out of control of the URM individual.

She wasn't generalizing. Some get in and some don't. She gave reasons from her personal experience as to why some are not accepted despite good stats. This was in response with a question I asked about why Whites are given preference over Asians despite Asians having higher stats. You might think, gee, that's not fair for the Whites to have an advantage over Asians, but no, you immediately go back to criticizing URMs.

 

[tn4596]

I think she meant in comparison to other applicants in interviews, these are the reasons why many of them don't interview well. Also the multitude of languages that Asians speak are not as highly used in comparison to English and Spanish in America. Being a native speaker of an Asian language isn't useful in America if you can't effectively communicate in English, which is exactly the reason why I changed my PCP.

To make the statement: Asian don't interview well compared to other races, therefore that caused said disparities. I would think you need more data to support that rather than just drawing that assumption base that on your own experience. What is the percentage of Asian that interview "well"?, and then use that data to compare that to the percentage of disparity between white vs Asian acceptance rate. More importantly, what are the criteria to determine that an good interview? How can you make sure that races are the only independent variables seeing how different medical school uses varied interviewing structure? Also,it is implied in this explanation for the disparity percentage is the statement: it is up to the Asian applicant to be"more interesting, to carry interview betters." If only they can be as interesting as the white applicant, said disparities will vanish and the playing field is equal for all races. We all know that is not true.
Knowing another language is not always about usefulness. To be fluent in another language is to understand and to appreciate another culture. Is this not "bringing something interesting to the table?"

 

[Poetic Silence]

Oh, shut up! This thread will change nothing, convince anyone otherwise and will be replaced by next week with a new "I'm from Egypt, can I check African American on my application" thread.

Just shut up. Life is not 100% fair to anyone. Take what you can get when you can, don't waste a second complaining about something you cannot change and, most importantly, do whatever you can to make life more fair for others.

 

[Dave89]

To make the statement: Asian don't interview well compared to other races, therefore that caused said disparities. I would think you need more data to support that rather than just drawing that assumption base that on your own experience. What is the percentage of Asian that interview "well"?, and then use that data to compare that to the percentage of disparity between white vs Asian acceptance rate. More importantly, what are the criteria to determine that an good interview? How can you make sure that races are the only independent variables seeing how different medical school uses varied interviewing structure?
Knowing another language is not always about usefulness. To be fluent in another language is to understand and to appreciate another culture. Is this not "bringing something interesting to the table?"

MuAgonist ignores mathematical reality. Asian/Asian+White applicants in 2011 numbered 9,858. That same year, there were 26,120 white applicants. A ratio of 0.38.

https://www.aamc.org/download/161178/data/table8.pdf

The matriculant data for 2011 is as follows: 4,303 Asian/Asian+White matriculants, and 12,095 White matriculants. A ratio of 0.36

https://www.aamc.org/download/161180/data/table9.pdf

Basically, the numbers for Asian matriculants are roughly commensurate with the numbers for Asian applicants. I.E. Asians are about as qualified (in terms of admission) as whites.

 

[lobo.solo]

To make the statement: Asian don't interview well compared to other races, therefore that caused said disparities. I would think you need more data to support that rather than just drawing that assumption base that on your own experience. What is the percentage of Asian that interview "well"?, and then use that data to compare that to the percentage of disparity between white vs Asian acceptance rate. More importantly, what are the criteria to determine that an good interview? How can you make sure that races are the only independent variables seeing how different medical school uses varied interviewing structure? Also,it is implied in this explanation for the disparity percentage is the statement: it is up to the Asian applicant to be"more interesting, to carry interview betters." If only they can be as interesting as the white applicant, said disparities will vanish and the playing field is equal for all races. We all know that is not true.
Knowing another language is not always about usefulness. To be fluent in another language is to understand and to appreciate another culture. Is this not "bringing something interesting to the table?"

Sure, it does and that is exactly what African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics applicants (URMs) bring to the table.... the precious insight about a culture that would positively impact the life of many in society. Do you get it now???

 

[Arbor Vitae]

MuAgonist ignores mathematical reality. Asian/Asian+White applicants in 2011 numbered 9,858. That same year, there were 26,120 white applicants. A ratio of 0.38.

https://www.aamc.org/download/161178/data/table8.pdf

The matriculant data for 2011 is as follows: 4,303 Asian/Asian+White matriculants, and 12,095 White matriculants. A ratio of 0.36

https://www.aamc.org/download/161180/data/table9.pdf

Basically, the numbers for Asian matriculants are roughly commensurate with the numbers for Asian applicants. I.E. Asians are about as qualified (in terms of admission) as whites.

If you want to get all nitpicky with mathematical reality then a drop from 0.38 to 0.36 could be significant especially when you start to look at stat differences between Asians and Whites. The ratio shouldn't go down from 0.38 to 0.36 but should go up to 0.40 possibly if Asians weren't being rejected for something other than stats.

 

[sibitrum]

If you want to get all nitpicky with mathematical reality then a drop from 0.38 to 0.36 could be significant especially when you start to look at stat differences between Asians and Whites. The ratio shouldn't go down from 0.38 to 0.36 but should go up to 0.40 possibly if Asians weren't being rejected for something other than stats.

It's quite possible that whites get a racial bonus relative to Asians, but that is just as bad in my view as URMs getting it.

 

[sibitrum]

Oh, shut up! This thread will change nothing, convince anyone otherwise and will be replaced by next week with a new "I'm from Egypt, can I check African American on my application" thread.

Just shut up. Life is not 100% fair to anyone. Take what you can get when you can, don't waste a second complaining about something you cannot change and, most importantly, do whatever you can to make life more fair for others.

I'm guessing you support affirmative action? Obviously those in favor of the status quo want people to "shut up" and move on. Meanwhile, everything stays the same.

 

[Dave89]

It's quite possible that whites get a racial bonus relative to Asians, but that is just as bad in my view as URMs getting it.

It could be any of a number of factors.

For example, I noticed that back when I was interviewing for med school, schools in large cities (think NY, LA, etc.) had more Asians interviewing (at least on my day) than schools in "flyover country." Schools in big cities are often more competitive, so concentrating on those schools may lead to lower acceptance rates.

 

[sibitrum]

It could be any of a number of factors.

For example, I noticed that back when I was interviewing for med school, schools in large cities (think NY, LA, etc.) had more Asians interviewing (at least on my day) than schools in "flyover country." Schools in big cities are often more competitive, so concentrating on those schools may lead to lower acceptance rates.

I know it could be something else. I'm just saying that I don't support AA in any form.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

It's quite possible that whites get a racial bonus relative to Asians, but that is just as bad in my view as URMs getting it.

This is my point exactly. Why is this OK, but the small number of URMs getting in is intolerable? If I were Asian, I would not be uspet about the URMs, but about the advantage that seems to be given to Whites over Asians.

If everything needs to be so merit based as all the opponents of AA and URM seem to argue, why aren't Asians the most dominant race in medical school based off of merit?

 

[FattySlug]

Oh, shut up! This thread will change nothing, convince anyone otherwise and will be replaced by next week with a new "I'm from Egypt, can I check African American on my application" thread.

Just shut up. Life is not 100% fair to anyone. Take what you can get when you can, don't waste a second complaining about something you cannot change and, most importantly, do whatever you can to make life more fair for others.

These things can definitely be changed. Your line of thinking does not lead to social progress.

Edit: I suppose you think the anti slave crowd back then should have shut up too since it seemed so unchangeable at that time.

 

[sibitrum]

This is my point exactly. Why is this OK, but the small number of URMs getting in is intolerable? If I were Asian, I would not be uspet about the URMs, but about the advantage that seems to be given to Whites over Asians.

If everything needs to be so merit based as all the opponents of AA and URM seem to argue, why aren't Asians the most dominant race in medical school based off of merit?

Well, for one the advantage given to URMs is much, much greater, so the sense of injustice is correspondingly higher.

 

[sibitrum]

These things can definitely be changed. Your line of thinking does not lead to social progress.

Edit: I suppose you think the anti slave crowd back then should have shut up too since it seemed so unchangeable at that time.

Indeed, they can be. And hopefully the upcoming Supreme Court case starts paving the way for the dismantling of AA programs.

 

[tn4596]

Sure, it does and that is exactly what African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics applicants (URMs) bring to the table.... the precious insight about a culture that would positively impact the life of many in society. Do you get it now???

URM have little to do with the discussion at hand. If you want to know my stance regarding URM, read my posts on the last page.

It could be any of a number of factors.

For example, I noticed that back when I was interviewing for med school, schools in large cities (think NY, LA, etc.) had more Asians interviewing (at least on my day) than schools in "flyover country." Schools in big cities are often more competitive, so concentrating on those schools may lead to lower acceptance rates.

Agree. Whatever these factors might be, they arise from the schools, not from the applicant pool.

 

[Underarchiever]

The stereotyping of Asians being poor communicators simply does not hold water. I have taught in one of the top medical schools in the country for the last 15 years. The most active group in the classroom consistently comes from the students of Asian decent. Whites, on the other hands, are relatively quiet. URM students are in between. I seldom encountered accented students in medical school, regardless races. In addition, having an accent would not deter communication. My primary care physician is an Italian with strong accent, and he is an excellent doc for me. Knowing one more language is an asset, not a weakness.

What the administrators in the medical schools are afraid of is turning some of the top medical schools in the country into Stuyvensant or Bronx Science High in terms of race composition if admission is purely based on merit. They come up a variety of excuses to make racial balancing in the school.

 

[Freesia88]

Well, for one the advantage given to URMs is much, much greater, so the sense of injustice is correspondingly higher.

I said I wasn't going to comment on this thread again but this statement is so mindbogglingly absurd, I cannot let it go.

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146/data/table31-enrll-race-sch-2011.pdf

First let me say that I have NOTHING against white people or Asians for that matter.

That being said, look at those numbers. I mean really look at them. There are more white students in most schools than ALL other minorities combined. In some schools there are 3 times more white students than there are all other minorities combined. Are you saying that then all those white students have >3.7 GPA's and > 30 MCAT's, stellar EC's and interviewed perfectly and so deserve to be there?

Seriously, URM's are not taking your places. (They are not yours to begin with). Whatever advantage URM's maybe getting is literally a drop in the proverbial pond. Going by those numbers if you as a white or asian do not get accepted, it's likely you did not do enough to impress the adcom, not becasue some black or hispanic or native american got chosen over you.

 

[Dave89]

I said I wasn't going to comment on this thread again but this statement is so mindbogglingly absurd, I cannot let it go.

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146/data/table31-enrll-race-sch-2011.pdf

First let me say that I have NOTHING against white people or Asians for that matter.

That being said, look at those numbers. I mean really look at them. There are more white students in most schools than ALL other minorities combined. In some schools there are 3 times more white students than there are all other minorities combined. Are you saying then that saying that all those white students have >3.7 GPA's and > 30 MCAT's, stellar EC's and interviewed perfectly and so deserve to be there?

Seriously, URM's are not taking your places. (They are not yours to begin with). Whatever advantage URM's maybe getting is literally a drop in the proverbial pond. Going by those numbers if you as a white or asian does not get accepted, it's likely you did not do enough to impress the adcom, not becasue some black or hispanic or native american got chosen over you.

I'll be as gentle as possible: your linked data is IRRELEVANT. It does not even take into account the applicant pool.

 

[wolfie77]

The stereotyping of Asians being poor communicators simply does not hold water. I have taught in one of the top medical schools in the country for the last 15 years. The most active group in the classroom consistently comes from the students of Asian decent. Whites, on the other hands, are relatively quiet. URM students are in between. I seldom encountered accented students in medical school, regardless races. In addition, having an accent would not deter communication. My primary care physician is an Italian with strong accent, and he is an excellent doc for me. Knowing one more language is an asset, not a weakness.

What the administrators in the medical schools are afraid of is turning some of the top medical schools in the country into Stuyvensant or Bronx Science High in terms of race composition if admission is purely based on merit. They come up a variety of excuses to make racial balancing in the school.

I think you're largely correct in your analysis.....And I'm not sure how I feel about it....I mean whose best interest would it be if a med school (say UCLA, for instance) was 70 percent of a certain (any) group? Idk

 

[LizzyM]

The stereotyping of Asians being poor communicators simply does not hold water. I have taught in one of the top medical schools in the country for the last 15 years. The most active group in the classroom consistently comes from the students of Asian decent. Whites, on the other hands, are relatively quiet. URM students are in between. I seldom encountered accented students in medical school, regardless races. In addition, having an accent would not deter communication. My primary care physician is an Italian with strong accent, and he is an excellent doc for me. Knowing one more language is an asset, not a weakness.

What the administrators in the medical schools are afraid of is turning some of the top medical schools in the country into Stuyvensant or Bronx Science High in terms of race composition if admission is purely based on merit. They come up a variety of excuses to make racial balancing in the school.

Hello! If you have not seen these issues in your medical students it is because the adcom is working hard to weed out those applicants before they ever get to your classroom!

 

[wolfie77]

Hello! If you have not seen these issues in your medical students it is because the adcom is working hard to weed out those applicants before they ever get to your classroom!

I was thinking that too as I was reading.

 

[Freesia88]

I'll be as gentle as possible: your linked data is IRRELEVANT. It does not even take into account the applicant pool.

The tables show students enrolled. Ultimately that's what counts. Who got in and who got rejected. Supposedly, better quality White and Asian applicants are being passed over for admission and the spots are being "given" to lower quality Black, Hispanic and other minorities.

The table shows however that even with the so called URM advantage, white applicants still outnumber, almost ridiculously, the other students. Followed closely by Asians. So what exactly is the issue with the data?

 

[LizzyM]

I said I wasn't going to comment on this thread again but this statement is so mindbogglingly absurd, I cannot let it go.

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146/data/table31-enrll-race-sch-2011.pdf

First let me say that I have NOTHING against white people or Asians for that matter.

That being said, look at those numbers. I mean really look at them. There are more white students in most schools than ALL other minorities combined. In some schools there are 3 times more white students than there are all other minorities combined. Are you saying that then all those white students have >3.7 GPA's and > 30 MCAT's, stellar EC's and interviewed perfectly and so deserve to be there?

Seriously, URM's are not taking your places. (They are not yours to begin with). Whatever advantage URM's maybe getting is literally a drop in the proverbial pond. Going by those numbers if you as a white or asian do not get accepted, it's likely you did not do enough to impress the adcom, not becasue some black or hispanic or native american got chosen over you.

I will also point out that there are some schools (such as Stanford) where the number of Asian students is nearly equal to the numer of white students. Also, keep in mind that some state schools are restricted by state funding from their legislature to admit only students from their state, or to favor instate students. In states with a small proportion of Asian applicants (Mississippi?? Arkansas??) there aren't going to be that many eligible applicants from a residency point of view. Finally, when an applicant has a choice between Mississippi and Stanford, where are they going to go? You can't count who has been admitted but only who matriculates and again, exceptional applicants may have offers from six very desirable schools but can only choose one.

 

[Underarchiever]

LizzyM: Do you mean that Asians need a higher standard in communication to get in?

 

[Dave89]

The tables show students enrolled. Ultimately that's what counts. Who got in and who got rejected. Supposedly, better quality White and Asian applicants are being passed over for admission and the spots are being "given" to lower quality Black, Hispanic and other minorities.

The table shows however that even with the so called URM advantage, white applicants still outnumber, almost ridiculously, the other students. Followed closely by Asians. So what exactly is the issue with the data?

The issue is that the data you gave doesn't matter. For all we know, each and every URM on that list had a 23 MCAT. Now is that actually the case? Of course not. But the point is, the final numbers say nothing about the process.

 

[Freesia88]

The issue is that the data you gave doesn't matter. For all we know, each and every URM on that list had a 23 MCAT. Now is that actually the case? Of course not. But the point is, the final numbers say nothing about the process.

Dave89, I don't get it. Please help me understand. Do you just think URM's are just plain dumb and under no circumstances should be able to perform at a good enough level to be able to get into medical school? (You can just admit it...you'll not be the first to have such an opinion. )

You seem to be under the assumption that every URM applicant has a sub par application and needs that URM edge to get in. That is simply not correct. I will bet all my earthly possessions that there are many who could leave that box or whatever it is unchecked and still get in just fine. Or do you disagree with this?

I will reiterate that if you as a white or asian student does not make it, the problem is with some aspect of your whole application package, not beasue your (imagined) spot was given to a URM.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM: Do you mean that Asians need a higher standard in communication to get in?

No, I mean that applicants of any race or ethnicity who are unable to communicate clearly and effectively in written and spoken English and those who are too shy to speak up are weeded out either through information in the letters of recommendation, through an assessment of the written materials submitted with the application (English grammar), or at interview.

Heavy accents are one issue and most common in applicants who came to the US to attend college. Another issue is the like,like, ya'know manner of speaking that can turn off some interviewers.

 

[Dave89]

Dave89, I don't get it. Please help me understand. Do you just think URM's are just plain dumb and under no circumstances should be able to perform at a good enough level to be able to get into medical school? (You can just admit it...you'll not be the first to have such an opinion. )

Not in the slightest. My point was that the final numbers of enrollment don't say anything about MCAT, GPA, extracurriculars, or how many members of each racial/ethnic group applied to medical school in the first place.

You seem to be under the assumption that every URM applicant has a sub par application and needs that URM edge to get in. That is simply not correct. I will bet all my earthly possessions that there are many who could leave that box or whatever it is unchecked and still get in just fine. Or do you disagree with this?

No, that is not my opinion. You misinterpreted my post.

I will reiterate that if you as a white or asian student does not make it, the problem is with some aspect of your whole application package, not beasue your (imagined) spot was given to a URM.

I agree. I am all for URM (as opposed to AA in general), and I think a qualified applicant will get in regardless of race/ethnicity. That is, assuming (s)he makes good choices while applying.