How much research should one do to be competitive enough to match into ortho surg?

[aztlannation]

I am very interested in learning more about ortho surgery and see if it's a good fit for me. I want to go into medical school knowing what I must do to be competitive. Aside from very high USMLE scores and being on top of your class I know there are other things you must also do. I read that you need lots of research and publications since like 9/10 of those matched into these residencies have this experience. Well, I am curious to learn about how much research is expected? A few summers of research between medical school? take a year off to do research? or as long as it takes to get a few publications?

What is the average amount of research that people usually do (going into these residencies)? I did basic science research in my undergrad and didn't really like that - I would like to get involved with more clinical research.

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[Gambler 101]

Check out the NRMP outcomes pdf and look at number of research experiences for those who matched into ortho...

 

[Wordead]

No more participation trophies bro, # of pubs not # of hours and experiences.

 

[tymont12]

From the NRMP statistics... mean matched US seniors had:

3.7 research experiences
6.7 abstracts/presentations/publications
7 volunteer experiences

What I don't get is how people get 6.7 presentations / publications WITHOUT taking a year for research. Can someone talk about their experience with a project? As in, how does that lead to X number of abstracts, presentations, etc. because I just have no idea.

 

[Say]

I had 3 publications in college. Summer experience between m1 and m2 yielded 2 more publications. Then case reports and other easier publications/presentations in 3rd/4th year... 6-7 is not a lot when you consider you can have a presentation on the same material as the publication

 

[operaman]

Charting outcomes is a nice start but I do wish they broke things down a little further beyond number of research experiences. The number may appear large but may contain papers from undergrad or other fields. Add to that a presentation for each pub and those numbers can blow up fast.

I would say 3 published papers is a solid start, ideally with one or more as first author. Add to that an assortment of posters and presentations and you're probably comfortably in the middle of the pack. 5 pubs would probably place you in a much better position, especially if 2-3 of them are first author.

Whatever you do, remember that the subslecialties are only getting more competitive, so what's normal now may be below average in a few years when you apply. Best to try and go above and beyond wherever possible.

 

[tymont12]

I had 3 publications in college. Summer experience between m1 and m2 yielded 2 more publications. Then case reports and other easier publications/presentations in 3rd/4th year... 6-7 is not a lot when you consider you can have a presentation on the same material as the publication

I would say your case is unique given how productive you were in undergrad. I don't know many individuals who had 3 pubs--or even any--coming into med school. Thats assuming you did a bachelors.

 

[typhoonegator]

You can do one project and present it at many different meetings, with subtle changes. I see this garbage all the time on the national meeting circuit. Throw in a few "research day" presentations for the med school or hospital, and boom, you've got an overinflated scientific stature. Seriously, though, if you work on two projects, and present each at two meetings (or someone presents them for you), then publish the results in a real journal, then you're at 6 right there. And even case reports can go that route. You could write up two case reports between summers and M3 year.

 

[restlessdriven]

Does a publication/project have to be directly related to the specialty you're trying to match to in order for it to be looked on favorably? Or do these programs just want to see an interest in research?

 

[Merely]

If I'm first author on a project but someone else presents it at a national meeting, does that still count as a pub on the application? Would that be a presentation and contribute to the 6-7 pub numbers we're seeing above?

 

[tymont12]

You can do one project and present it at many different meetings, with subtle changes. I see this garbage all the time on the national meeting circuit. Throw in a few "research day" presentations for the med school or hospital, and boom, you've got an overinflated scientific stature. Seriously, though, if you work on two projects, and present each at two meetings (or someone presents them for you), then publish the results in a real journal, then you're at 6 right there. And even case reports can go that route. You could write up two case reports between summers and M3 year.

There are students at my school--and probably many others--who have gone to 'research mills' for a year in order to become more competitive and they magically come back with 8-12 pubs and it makes me question how much they're stretching the concept of the minimum publishable unit.

 

[PL198]

There are students at my school--and probably many others--who have gone to 'research mills' for a year in order to become more competitive and they magically come back with 8-12 pubs and it makes me question how much they're stretching the concept of the minimum publishable unit.

who cares. you're a med student, the crap we publish isn't trying to change standard of care

 

[Frazier]

If I'm first author on a project but someone else presents it at a national meeting, does that still count as a pub on the application? Would that be a presentation and contribute to the 6-7 pub numbers we're seeing above?

What does that bold part mean? Do you mean first author on an abstract/poster?

Yes, those are included in the statistic you mention.

The kicker is no one gives a damn about that statistic other than med students (as we use it to gauge where we stand against the field)... So, no, interviewers will clearly understand from your app that an abstract/poster is not a peer-reviewed publication.

Your interviewer won't give a damn about a number in charting outcomes. Your accomplishments should be clearly labeled for easy interpretation in your ERAS app.

 

[Merely]

Yeah I mean an abstract presented to a national conference and an oral podium presentation was given at that conference but I was sick so I was not able to give it even though I was first author, would I put that as a first author oral presentation in ERAS?

 

[awared2]

From the NRMP statistics... mean matched US seniors had:

3.7 research experiences
6.7 abstracts/presentations/publications
7 volunteer experiences

What I don't get is how people get 6.7 presentations / publications WITHOUT taking a year for research. Can someone talk about their experience with a project? As in, how does that lead to X number of abstracts, presentations, etc. because I just have no idea.

View attachment 197956

I had 1 publication in undergrad, 1 presentation in undergrad, 2 publications over ms1-ms2 summer, and 2 or 3 submitting over winter break of ms2. Basically just get a good advisor and work hard for them, keep asking for more work.

 

[awared2]

who cares. you're a med student, the crap we publish isn't trying to change standard of care

Not necessarily true, the clinical study I'm running right now is on a very controversial subject and will hopefully get noticed.

 

[PL198]

Not necessarily true, the clinical study I'm running right now is on a very controversial subject and will hopefully get noticed.

said every student who has ever done research which changed nothing

 

[awared2]

said every student who has ever done research which changed nothing

Well the last (and only) group who did something similar got sued and made big noise in the media, so we will see I guess.

 

[ridethecliche]

Wait. Do you even know what ortho does?

Saying you want to learn more means that you haven't even bothered to shadow ortho, right? Why don't you start there?

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

What I don't get is how people get 6.7 presentations / publications WITHOUT taking a year for research. Can someone talk about their experience with a project? As in, how does that lead to X number of abstracts, presentations, etc. because I just have no idea.
View attachment 197956

6-7 PUBLICATIONS in medical school without a year of research sounds impossible, unless someone did the research before medical school.

6-7 presentations/experiences is definitely possible. It depends on how much work someone puts into a research topic of interest, and also time someone puts into applying to research conferences (posters, abstracts, etc.) and attending medical school research days.

I ended up with 1 publication due to a 10 week research internship between first and second year (not in ortho). I was lucky because I did the work at a huge academic hospital and I told my PI on day 1 that I was interested in being a co-author. He worked my A** off and I was in the lab 12 hours a day but it was worth it. I ended up on the paper because I wrote my portion of the research into the paper.

From that one 10 week period of research I ended up with 1 publication, 1 abstract, 1 formal presentation at a conference, and 2 poster presentations (5 research experiences).

For me it all come down to the time I put into the research and signing up for every research/poster presentation opportunity throughout the year after my experience.

 

[ridethecliche]

6-7 PUBLICATIONS in medical school without a year of research sounds impossible, unless someone did the research before medical school.

6-7 presentations/experiences is definitely possible. It depends on how much work someone puts into a research topic of interest, and also time someone puts into applying to research conferences (posters, abstracts, etc.) and attending medical school research days.

I ended up with 1 publication due to a 10 week research internship between first and second year (not in ortho). I was lucky because I did the work at a huge academic hospital and I told my PI on day 1 that I was interested in being a co-author. He worked my A** off and I was in the lab 12 hours a day but it was worth it. I ended up on the paper because I wrote my portion of the research into the paper.

From that one 10 week period of research I ended up with 1 publication, 1 abstract, 1 formal presentation at a conference, and 2 poster presentations (5 research experiences).

For me it all come down to the time I put into the research and signing up for every research/poster presentation opportunity throughout the year after my experience.

Depends on how you pick projects.

I have 4 from 2 years pre-med school of which most of my work was done the first year and things got accepted the 2nd. I'd say that I got those 4 pubs based on work done in one year. There was a med student I worked with that got about 10 publications over the course of a years work. She was certainly not the norm, but it can be done. So...

And these were all in ortho.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

Depends on how you pick projects.
There was a med student I worked with that got about 10 publications over the course of a years work. She was certainly not the norm, but it can be done. So...

Damn! I stand corrected.

 

[slatewater]

I've have 7 pubs, 4 podiums from 1.5 years of work before starting med school in the fall and ortho's my current goal. Ortho itself is a field which definitely, and increasingly, values research, some sub-sections valuing it more than others; this also varies by institution. I have also worked with a few 3Y med student who have around 10 pubs from 1 year of work and have submitted their apps already - they were largely pushed by the chief of ortho at the hospital I work at to beef up their C.V.'s as such. Take my experience with a grain of salt, naturally..