How often do you do things that aren't evidence based?

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TheTruckGuy

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So some of my colleagues won't do anything unless there is robust literature to support it. Some will consider doing something if the evidence is there and of decent quality. I'm more of a voodoo person. My basic thoughts are that just because evidence doesn't exist to support something, doesn't mean that it doesn't work. And if the the physiology makes sense, and the risks/costs are minimal to none, there's no harm in trying (especially when there is potential for high reward).

I understand the potential for deluding ourselves into thinking something works, and setting a standard of care, when it doesn't actually work. But sometimes a little voodoo does the trick.

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Everyone does, a lot of medicine is a show, especially when dealing with the less sick patients. When you become a resident and later an attending you will learn to act the part. We're all guilty of giving the therapeutic head CT to the pt with vertigo and negative MRI last year who is convinced they have a tumor, or the abx prescription to the kid with viral pharyngitis whose parents have brought him in for the third time in two days for the runny nose, or how about the saline flush "benzo" for the PNES patient "seizing" in front of you. Your job in the ED is to move the masses of humanity through in a quick and orderly fashion so you can be ready to practice evidence based medicine on the ones who are actually sick. Sometimes it takes a little extra showmanship and customer service to get these people back on the street.
 
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I always practice EBM.

Sometimes that E stands for evidence, other times it stands for emotion.

I try to be honest with myself about which E I'm using, and minimize cost/risk to the patient regardless.
 
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Like I tell my residents.. a big part of it is the show. Anyone who says they only practice EBM are lying. If my residents do something “stupid” or non EBM I just tell them that its important to be honest with yourself about what and why you are doing it.

Maybe these people dont know enough about EBM or what is truly EBM.
 
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Your colleagues are naive. It should be if there is robust evidence then do that, otherwise use your best judgement. There really aren't that many robust papers out there in the medical world compared to all the many things doctors do everyday
 
Haha. Most medicine isn’t even close to EBM. We should use it when we have it though.
 
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I don't use parachutes to jump out of planes or look both ways before crossing the street because there are no high quality randomized trials to support either practice.
 
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You know EBM is a fairy tale when I keep hearing overhead

1. Trauma alert when they guy fell from 10 foot, has an ankle sprain, and just got back with a CXR/CT neck/CT abd
2. Stoke alert when a 21 YO with left facial weakness and just got the full meal lab deal, CT head
3. Sepsis alert when the 21 YO with the flu getting Blood cultures, Zosyn, 2L IVF, Lactic, and the other 15 labs that goes with protocols

Did someone from the government and academic institution just tell me we should practice EBM?
 
You know EBM is a fairy tale when I keep hearing overhead

1. Trauma alert when they guy fell from 10 foot, has an ankle sprain, and just got back with a CXR/CT neck/CT abd
2. Stoke alert when a 21 YO with left facial weakness and just got the full meal lab deal, CT head
3. Sepsis alert when the 21 YO with the flu getting Blood cultures, Zosyn, 2L IVF, Lactic, and the other 15 labs that goes with protocols

Did someone from the government and academic institution just tell me we should practice EBM?

1. LOLZ you so dumb. It's for "special populations" and "mechanism".
2. Cuz you know the nurses have to do this on everyone so we "don't miss anything", better start some TPA just to be sure. Also "Time is Brain".
3. Sepsis is a very common condition in normal, healthy people under 40. We are just "underdiagnosing" and "undertreating". If we identify it on every patient we get better "mortality".
 
1. LOLZ you so dumb. It's for "special populations" and "mechanism".
2. Cuz you know the nurses have to do this on everyone so we "don't miss anything", better start some TPA just to be sure. Also "Time is Brain".
3. Sepsis is a very common condition in normal, healthy people under 40. We are just "underdiagnosing" and "undertreating". If we identify it on every patient we get better "mortality".

Yeah its a really Evidence Based Day when I hear this
1. Dr. Emergent we have started to initiate Transfer of the trauma pt, Trauma alert called. I walk in and the guy fell from a 15 foot roof and has ankle pain... maybe broke it. Has no other pain, vitals stable but b/c of the mechanism dude gets an IV, full meal lab deal, Xrays, and nurse starting to initiate a transfer to the Trauma Center. WTF.... I use my Non Evidence Based education and call everything off, shoot an xray of the ankle and send him home. He has NO other pain anywhere.

2. Dr Emergent, 30 yr old girl complains of left arm numbness. Pt with full meal lab deal, in CT getting her head spun. Girl has left arm numbness, right leg numbness that she gets all the time when stressed. WTF.... I Non Evidence Based a discharge when everything comes back normal.

3. Dr. Emergent, Sepsis alert overhead. I swear I hear this 10 times in my shift and 75% never get admitted. 20% admitted but not septic. 5% borderline septic and what we did really will not affect outcome. The True Sick Septic/Septic shock pt looks sick and I am there immediately anyhow and the sepsis alert creates no improvement in care. But for the 75% discharged, they got the full meal deal, light up with a CXR, and All good organisms irradicated with Maxi/Vanc/Leavquin/zosyn/rocephin.

I am happy to punch my clock, collect my paycheck and CMS/Admin/CMG Evidence based medicine Crap can just keep on going until the next hot topic hits. I am ready for "Pain Alert" that will be coming. If a Patient says they have 8+/10 pain, they automatically get an IV and Dilaudid IV.
 
Yeah its a really Evidence Based Day when I hear this
1. Dr. Emergent we have started to initiate Transfer of the trauma pt, Trauma alert called. I walk in and the guy fell from a 15 foot roof and has ankle pain... maybe broke it. Has no other pain, vitals stable but b/c of the mechanism dude gets an IV, full meal lab deal, Xrays, and nurse starting to initiate a transfer to the Trauma Center. WTF.... I use my Non Evidence Based education and call everything off, shoot an xray of the ankle and send him home. He has NO other pain anywhere.

2. Dr Emergent, 30 yr old girl complains of left arm numbness. Pt with full meal lab deal, in CT getting her head spun. Girl has left arm numbness, right leg numbness that she gets all the time when stressed. WTF.... I Non Evidence Based a discharge when everything comes back normal.

3. Dr. Emergent, Sepsis alert overhead. I swear I hear this 10 times in my shift and 75% never get admitted. 20% admitted but not septic. 5% borderline septic and what we did really will not affect outcome. The True Sick Septic/Septic shock pt looks sick and I am there immediately anyhow and the sepsis alert creates no improvement in care. But for the 75% discharged, they got the full meal deal, light up with a CXR, and All good organisms irradicated with Maxi/Vanc/Leavquin/zosyn/rocephin.

I am happy to punch my clock, collect my paycheck and CMS/Admin/CMG Evidence based medicine Crap can just keep on going until the next hot topic hits. I am ready for "Pain Alert" that will be coming. If a Patient says they have 8+/10 pain, they automatically get an IV and Dilaudid IV.

Why are nurses driving all of this? Why do they have the ability to initiate these alerts without physician input?

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Why are nurses driving all of this? Why do they have the ability to initiate these alerts without physician input?

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The government is driving these efforts by (the perception of) threatening to decrease global Medicare payments for fallouts.
Nurses drive this in individual hospitals because they’re the most consistently present and most controllable part of the ED system.

They have the ability to initiate these without physician input because in most places the majority of fallouts are going to occur because of wait time. If the clock starts on arrival and the average wait time is 60+ minutes then you’ll miss a bunch of core measures. Code STEMI showed proof of concept. When a model works (especially one that has minimal upfront costs to the hospital), it gets replicated to solve other problems that may have less clear benefit and higher downstream costs.
 
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So some of my colleagues won't do anything unless there is robust literature to support it. Some will consider doing something if the evidence is there and of decent quality. I'm more of a voodoo person. My basic thoughts are that just because evidence doesn't exist to support something, doesn't mean that it doesn't work. And if the the physiology makes sense, and the risks/costs are minimal to none, there's no harm in trying (especially when there is potential for high reward).

I understand the potential for deluding ourselves into thinking something works, and setting a standard of care, when it doesn't actually work. But sometimes a little voodoo does the trick.
For most clinical decisions, there is no specific level 1 evidence you can look at, that exactly matches your patient population, and the specific clinical question involved, not to mention the real world intangibles, such as psychosocial, practical and administrative pressures. Anyone who thinks they're practicing "100% EBM" is kidding themselves. To even make "100% EMB" based practice as your goal, is not even a good goal, in my opinion. Good quality EBM should be used as a guide, but EMB as a whole misses such a large and growing set of factors that come to play in our work settings, it's ridiculous.

How many double blind, placebo controlled randomized trials, take into account these things, all of which affect decision making?

-"Choosing wisely" cost pressure.
-Administrative pressure over metrics.
-Pressure to cave to demands of instant gratification by patients and run up patient satisfaction scores that ignore best practices.
-Psychotic, violent or intoxicated patients threatening you when you're trying to make your decision based on studies done in a controlled, academic trial setting.
-Patients you see that would have been disqualified from any study based on inclusion criteria which set up a false representation of the "real world."
-Insurance company pressures (certain studies not being paid for, certain meds not being paid for).
-Fear of prescribing/not prescribing opiates due to threat of regulation/lawsuit/board action.
-Fear of false and frivolous malpractice allegations.
-The loss of time that would otherwise have been spent on quality decision making, spent on endless documentation to satisfy pointless, government imposed regulation created by bureaucrats that don't take care of patients (MIPS, MACRA, Meaninless Use, PQRS, VBM, EHRs, Joint Commision, etc)
-The fact that 5% of clinical trials are mathematically guaranteed to be wrong (by the definition of p values & statistics) at a minimum, when perfectly done, and before taking into account bias which can raise the number dramatically higher. Have you ever seen a news report breaking about some new "groundbreaking" study, that said in the article, "Studies like this are guaranteed to be wrong 5% of the time, by statistical chance?" I bet not. Yet the pressure to march in lock-step with the latest and hottest study and it's opinion driven conclusions, remains.
-Other factors

Once you strip away what's left, I'm not so sure how much EBM Perfect-World even helps us, in Medicine Real-World as it exists today. It's a guide and shouldn't be ignored or abandoned totally, but you sure as hell better realize it's limitations if you want to succeed in this Medicine game.
 
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