How to approach bullying in school?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

ara96

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
113
Reaction score
16
As I gear up to start fellowship, I'm wondering how you guys are tackling this with your patients? I tell them to report any threats or bullying to the teacher/counselor, but in the public school system, that is unlikely to produce any results. Should I tell them to just ignore it and focus on bigger goals? Bullying is a big deal these days and its very sad to see so many kids suffer through it.

Thanks
 
Should I tell them to just ignore it and focus on bigger goals?
Why do you have to tell them what to do? I usually explore with kids their experiences and guide them through problem solving (which can include reporting it). In general, telling patients what to do to solve their problems isn't a very therapeutic approach.

I do tell parents to report the bullying, however.
 
I seriously think kids need to give up some social media - that solves a lot of how it happens these days
It happened even back in the AIM days. I could be way out of the loop, but it seems better in some ways in that your online identity, at least on Facebook, is matched with who you really are. Back in the late 90s, there was an anonymous person who wrote "I'm going to kill you" to me on AIM. And I didn't know who it was, but someone who knew my screen name. It turned out to be a guy who razzed me who said it was a joke. I don't think I knew of the word bullying, but he was one of many people who did things that would now be called bullying. There was another kid who was bullied by both teachers and students, and a group of students put his soul up for sale on eBay. He retaliated in a profanity-laden e-mail (we had school e-mail accounts), and he was expelled (very unfairly).
 
It happened even back in the AIM days. I could be way out of the loop, but it seems better in some ways in that your online identity, at least on Facebook, is matched with who you really are. Back in the late 90s, there was an anonymous person who wrote "I'm going to kill you" to me on AIM. And I didn't know who it was, but someone who knew my screen name. It turned out to be a guy who razzed me who said it was a joke. I don't think I knew of the word bullying, but he was one of many people who did things that would now be called bullying. There was another kid who was bullied by both teachers and students, and a group of students put his soul up for sale on eBay. He retaliated in a profanity-laden e-mail (we had school e-mail accounts), and he was expelled (very unfairly).

well, I say "these days" but there's a whole swath of bullying that is avoided if one just avoids online interactions, even ones based on who you really are, and ones that are anonymous.

I don't mean to suggest that one becomes a social media hermit, but it's one thing to only have close friends and family be able to contact you on FB, text with aquaintances/friends (that you can block when they stop being friendly), and another the way people get involved on online forums, LJ, Snapchat, Instagram, etc etc.

The sooner kids learn to put up appropriate digital boundaries, the better off they will be.

Aside from what I call "in person" bullying, or what happens on your cell phone with calls/texts, ALL the rest of it can just be avoided. I don't mean that solves ALL the bullying, but it's actually a fair amount. Cyber bullying doesn't take the same risks as when a bully has to put a note in your locker, try to kick your ass in person, steal your stuff, on and on. Reducing the easy avenues reduces a lot.

As far as the other types of bullying you can't stop by powering down a device....
 
Man, the world sucks now. Social media and all. Shikima's method worked pretty well for me growing up. Although, I was a big kid and had two older brothers, so I was used to fighting.

Hamster has it right on the therapeutic side. Therapists do not tell patients what to do, or even really give advice. We can provide psychoeducation and work through experiences and such, but we don't offer much in the way of direction in therapy.
 
Jeez that's hard. I don't work with kids, so I don't have an answer, but I'm definitely interested here. One of the reasons for me not doing CAP is a patient who got hospitalized because he made a suicidal threat while he was being locked in a janitor's closet by boys who were bullying him. He really didn't have any intention of that, but amazingly the bullies thought it was important and brought it to a teacher. Unfortunately, I couldn't really figure out how taking him out of school for a week to be locked up in a psychiatric ward was going to help his bullying situation.
 
Teach kids martial arts and kick the **** out of the bully. Good exercise and builds esteem.

Along these same lines...don't forget to support and help nurture that part of the individual that wants to be more brave or resilient. We don't treat anxiety by teaching patients to avoid situations. We don't teach emotional regulation or resilience by colluding with patients to avoid emotions (or emotional situations). Obviously, objectively physically dangerous situations (e.g., a younger/weaker person being beaten up by larger individuals or groups) may require different considerations. But I really don't think that ANY systemic or parental response is necessarily called for if you're talking about some form of social 'bullying' or 'neglect' from one's peers. It would probably only make the problem worse. But I'm just a caveman.
 
I agree with not just encouraging passivity and avoidance.

At the same time, I don't think it's out of place as a provider to ask what form the bullying is taking place, and help patients identify ways to set appropriate interpersonal boundaries, which might include cyber stuff.

Here's an example for you.

Every year I go to see my family for the holidays, and they interrogate me at the dinner table about what a failure I am in life (MD doesn't count for much in this hyper-successful keep up with the Jones' type), until I came to jokingly say "It's Christmas. Time for the annual make-Crayola-cry-at-the-dinner-table dinner!"

One year was particularly hard, and I was really dreading it. I mentioned this to a psychiatrist who said, "Has it ever occurred to you that you can set boundaries, even with family?" I was like, :wideyed: They were like, "Next time, just say, "I'd rather not discuss that." It sounds rather daft to say that had never occurred to me.

So I don't think it's out of bounds to ask if parents/kids have considered setting boundaries like that when it comes to cyber-bullying, at the least. Sometimes disengaging is active.
 
Former teacher (now nontraditional premed) here. Unfortunately, yes, frequently bullying is swept under the rug by the very people who are responsible for taking care of it. Even when staff truly care and do their best to stop it, it's difficult to monitor everyone at all times. That said, given the publicity in recent years about student suicides as a result of bullying, most school districts (at least the ones who don't want to get sued) see it as a serious issue.

In my experience, kids usually have at least one teacher that they feel is more approachable than the rest. If I were a parent of a child who was being bullied, I would suggest they bring it up with the teacher they feel closest to, & see if they can help. (This can help the student feel empowered, &, if it's successful, builds confidence in their ability to deal with similar situations in the future.)

If for any reason that's not an option or doesn't work (or if the bullying is severe), I would escalate to administration (by which I mean the principal), and document heavily.

Regardless of which approach is used, I'd start by making a list of bullying incidents (what happened? when? who did it? who saw it?) & script (or help script) the conversation with the teacher and/or principal.

One of the Jr/Sr high schools I worked at actually had a police officer come in and talk to the students about the legal implications of harassing someone online or over text. Depending on your state, it's possible (likely) that cyber bullying is actually illegal. I would suggest familiarizing yourself with relevant state & local laws for your fellowship location, and also checking out the websites of local school districts for their bullying policy. (Most schools have one of these, even if in name only.)

Thanks for caring enough to ask this question! Bullying can have a lot of consequences in the long term, & one caring adult can make all the difference for a kid who's struggling. Good luck with fellowship!
 
I'm not psychiatrist, but I see doctors offer practical solutions to common problems all the time.

There's a fine line between psychoeducation, directed guidance, and straight out advice giving at times. Part of being a good therapist is being able to navigate that line.
 
There's a fine line between psychoeducation, directed guidance, and straight out advice giving at times. Part of being a good therapist is being able to navigate that line.
Right on the money with this. Kids already get advice on how to deal with bullying from any adult or even peer in their life. Having someone talk through the experience and assisting the patient in deciding what to try for themselves is more in line with psychotherapy, Psychotherapy is not about giving advice. It’s not like we have better advice than anyone else except for a few researched psychological concepts such as avoidance of anxiety provoking stimuli can make the anxiety worse or catharsis doesn’t release anger and it can increase it. The patient has to figure out what to do in their own life.
 
Your point is taken.

Maybe send them to their PCP who will give them a good dose of common sense.

It's just a peeve of mine. I can't solve every act of bullying. But you know what? You can cure all the ones from LJ, Instagram, FB, Snapchat, Twitter, Tumblr, the list goes on and on. It says something about our society that kids are committing suicide over this. One of the greatest health issues they face in terms of a lifelong health issues has a power button.

It goes beyond cyberbullying and just gets to what an issue cyber everything is in people's lives. I'm clearly just screaming about this because it infuriates me that this bullying goes on and the parents can't seem to control some of the device/online time their kids spend.
 
Last edited:
Could be totally different because you're working with kids.

One of the things I always thought was so useful about therapy was also getting practical tips on dealing with bad **** in my life.

Don't know what to say at the dinner table to shut down an uncomfortable subject? Don't know what to say to break up with your boyfriend? Struggling to get out of bed? Don't know how to set an interpersonal boundary with a friend?

Actually, the therapists in your life often do have better advice than the frakking internet or the sources you listed. They have practical experience dealing with the problems you're seeing them for, and they can tailor the advice to be applicable to the particulars of you and your situation. Sometimes just the fact it came out of your therapist's mouth magically makes the advice better.

I can't remember the advice I got back in my day when I was being bullied. It was too long ago or wasn't that much of a problem for me. I remember loooooads of other things I got from therapy after the age that bullying would have been an issue.

My insight is limited because I can't speak to the age or the bullying. But sometimes I hate this notion that goes around in the psych community that you can't offer outright advice that's helpful. You can.
 
Right on the money with this. Kids already get advice on how to deal with bullying from any adult or even peer in their life. Having someone talk through the experience and assisting the patient in deciding what to try for themselves is more in line with psychotherapy, Psychotherapy is not about giving advice. It’s not like we have better advice than anyone else except for a few researched psychological concepts such as avoidance of anxiety provoking stimuli can make the anxiety worse or catharsis doesn’t release anger and it can increase it. The patient has to figure out what to do in their own life.
Right. Major difference between saying, "Here's how some people choose to approach a situation like the one you're struggling with (and why)...what do you think about it?" vs. "Here's what you should do."
 
Sometimes people need you to tell them things directly and will frustrate attempts at Socratic questioning or supporting self-efficacy to communicate that. Sometimes you need to tell someone "if you do that, it will be very dangerous. I don't want to see you get hurt". Or "your mom just doesn't seem to be getting it". You shouldn't "give advice". Really you are helping resolve ambivalence by being an auxillary source of reality testing. That should be exercised with a lot of caution and consideration that a patient really won't get that message on their own.
 
Sometimes people need you to tell them things directly and will frustrate attempts at Socratic questioning or supporting self-efficacy to communicate that. Sometimes you need to tell someone "if you do that, it will be very dangerous. I don't want to see you get hurt". Or "your mom just doesn't seem to be getting it". You shouldn't "give advice". Really you are helping resolve ambivalence by being an auxillary source of reality testing. That should be exercised with a lot of caution and consideration that a patient really won't get that message on their own.
I tend to refer to that as activating a paternal transference and there are indeed times that I am very directive and in very similar situations that you are referring to. I don’t feel that this is the same as the “advice” that we are more generally referring to which I think you understand as well, but just clarifying for any newer folk who might be reading.

When it comes to kids and bullying, I can provide much direction for how to handle this most effectively from a psychotherapeutic standpoint as I have worked with many a kid who has struggled with this very same issue. Developmental age, type of bullying, family dynamics, kid’s personality, and a few other factors all can play a role in how I approach the situation. One clear danger of giving advice in any situation where there is a degree of victimization is the patient can get the message that, “if you had done x,y, or z, then you wouldn’t have been victimized.” which many patients are already thinking and tending to blame themselves anyway. With some kids, nerf bat battles with myself, one of my favorite techniques, can be an effective technique to counter feelings of helplessness related to bullying both by expressing and connecting with their own feelings of anger and to help face fears of getting physically hurt. More psychological bullying or exclusion types of bullying are usually more for the older kids and they will tend to benefit from exploring various ways to handle the situations and can respond really well to humorous examples which helps them to develo0 an effective interpersonal strategy for dealing with interpersonal power dynamics. Maybe what I am saying is that it is better to practice the various types of “combat” with the kid than it is to tell them what they should do.
 
Could be totally different because you're working with kids.

One of the things I always thought was so useful about therapy was also getting practical tips on dealing with bad **** in my life.

Don't know what to say at the dinner table to shut down an uncomfortable subject? Don't know what to say to break up with your boyfriend? Struggling to get out of bed? Don't know how to set an interpersonal boundary with a friend?

Actually, the therapists in your life often do have better advice than the frakking internet or the sources you listed. They have practical experience dealing with the problems you're seeing them for, and they can tailor the advice to be applicable to the particulars of you and your situation. Sometimes just the fact it came out of your therapist's mouth magically makes the advice better.

I can't remember the advice I got back in my day when I was being bullied. It was too long ago or wasn't that much of a problem for me. I remember loooooads of other things I got from therapy after the age that bullying would have been an issue.

My insight is limited because I can't speak to the age or the bullying. But sometimes I hate this notion that goes around in the psych community that you can't offer outright advice that's helpful. You can.
Completely agree with this. One reason I emphasize not giving advice is that too many bad therapists fall into the trap of telling patients what they should or shouldn’t do in their life. I like to use the term judiciously for things like when do I give advice or when do I self-disclose. When I was learning, it was important to learn to break the habit of trying to help people by giving advice all the damn time like everyone else in the world seems to do. I often tell my patients that I rarely give advice and when I explain why, they tend to appreciate it. It also makes it more likely that they will listen to me if a more directive stance is needed.

One other thing about advice. I wonder if this might be one of the differences between psychiatrists and psychologists is this perspective towards advice or being directive. I have definitely run into this before and of course always thought our perspective was the right one 😛. It does makes sense though as I am fairly certain physicians are trained to be more directive which clearly makes sense with many situations in the medical realm or with the more severe psychiatric patients. Although I have seen this backfire with some of the less skilled or nuanced psychiatrists such as are found at some state hospitals or CMHs and then I would have to come in and talk the patient out of trying to kill said psychiatrist. So whatever you do, don’t be that guy.
 
Completely agree with this. One reason I emphasize not giving advice is that too many bad therapists fall into the trap of telling patients what they should or shouldn’t do in their life. I like to use the term judiciously for things like when do I give advice or when do I self-disclose. When I was learning, it was important to learn to break the habit of trying to help people by giving advice all the damn time like everyone else in the world seems to do. I often tell my patients that I rarely give advice and when I explain why, they tend to appreciate it. It also makes it more likely that they will listen to me if a more directive stance is needed.

One other thing about advice. I wonder if this might be one of the differences between psychiatrists and psychologists is this perspective towards advice or being directive. I have definitely run into this before and of course always thought our perspective was the right one 😛. It does makes sense though as I am fairly certain physicians are trained to be more directive which clearly makes sense with many situations in the medical realm or with the more severe psychiatric patients. Although I have seen this backfire with some of the less skilled or nuanced psychiatrists such as are found at some state hospitals or CMHs and then I would have to come in and talk the patient out of trying to kill said psychiatrist. So whatever you do, don’t be that guy.

Another bad trap is where the patient is upset that the treatment team isn't telling them how to manage psychosocial stressors.
 
I seriously think kids need to give up some social media - that solves a lot of how it happens these days
I'm on my child rotation right now and I swear almost every kid, aside from IRL bullying, has some form of "snapchat" related bullying. The difference these days is how public social media is--you're talking to literally everyone in your mutual friend groups, not just whoever is in earshot.
 
I'm on my child rotation right now and I swear almost every kid, aside from IRL bullying, has some form of "snapchat" related bullying. The difference these days is how public social media is--you're talking to literally everyone in your mutual friend groups, not just whoever is in earshot.

Nevermind the sexting issues with every teen given a damn phone.
 
IMHO here's a starting point.
Kids should have limits on social media. E.g. an hour a day. This should be enforced by the major websites like Facebook. Lots of MMORPGs have things that prevent excessive use.
Google and all search engines need a way to have truly enforceable standards like the MPAA ratings. An 8 year old kid being able to watch as much porn as he wants is just flat out wrong.
The parents are likely part of the problem. When kids bully they got the idea from somewhere. Parents need to be part of the solution too but there's no way this is enforceable by teachers.
Religion-no I'm not a religion advocate, but our society is becoming more secular (I don't mind that, heck I'm almost Atheist....almost), but in it's stead there needs to be something to replace it that can give people a sense that they mean something important and that rules need to be followed. If half of society tries to be good cause they fear Hell and you get rid of the idea of Hell-heck maybe you shouldn't have killed the idea of it. (Again I'm not religious myself).
 
IMHO here's a starting point.
Kids should have limits on social media. E.g. an hour a day. This should be enforced by the major websites like Facebook. Lots of MMORPGs have things that prevent excessive use.
Google and all search engines need a way to have truly enforceable standards like the MPAA ratings. An 8 year old kid being able to watch as much porn as he wants is just flat out wrong.
The parents are likely part of the problem. When kids bully they got the idea from somewhere. Parents need to be part of the solution too but there's no way this is enforceable by teachers.
Religion-no I'm not a religion advocate, but our society is becoming more secular (I don't mind that, heck I'm almost Atheist....almost), but in it's stead there needs to be something to replace it that can give people a sense that they mean something important and that rules need to be followed. If half of society tries to be good cause they fear Hell and you get rid of the idea of Hell-heck maybe you shouldn't have killed the idea of it. (Again I'm not religious myself).

Amen.
 
I get that there's an element of kids needing to learn coping skills and that there's a way to do that psychotherapeutically that isn't offering advice.

BUUUT parents can be thick sometimes and miss the obvious. If they are looking for things they can do and share with the parents of bullies that are actually willing to engage...

Parents also need to enforce getting off the damn devices and monitoring communication to some extent.

As far as learning bullying, the parents of the victims, just as much as the bullies, play into this in ways I don't always think is immediately apparent to them. I think for victims of bullying, seeing parents bully each other is really damaging. It creates an environment that condones the behavior of bullying - of course this makes it more difficult for a child to put it into a perspective that decreases their distress. Harder to depersonalize the behavior. I could see it making it more difficult for a victimized child to go to the parent with being bullied - they feel being bullied by the parents. Being isolated in this way is part of the problem, as I think going through bullying alone is so much worse than when you can talk about it. And I think children internalize various aspects of seeing parents bully each other.

Not to mention, sometimes when children go to parents with bullying, they themselves can get bullied by well-meaning parents about how to deal or coping.

Maybe I'm wrong that parents should be encouraged to be supportive, and not push the child to act a certain way, ie stand up to the bully, "kick the bully's ass," etc.

Kids also don't interact after school times with parents enough. Parents can act as an example of how healthy people should relate to one another. It's more difficult for children to bully each other when they are being supervised by adults. I daresay that some of the expected behavior when the adults are around, does actually impact how children behave when adults aren't around.

Kindness is catching. So is bullying.
 
When it comes to electronic media, I tell the parents that it is the same as when my mom would say to go outside and play because too much tv will rot your brain. I am thinking too many of these parents of these kids spent too much time watching tv themselves and don’t have enough neurological capacity left to figure out how to raise kids . 😛 About ten years ago there was a correlations finding between hours of tv and severity of ADHD symptoms and we are just beginning to see the same with video games and social media. My observations are that the effects of current media are even worse than tv. This is an area where I am very directive with parents. Set limits for crying out loud!
 
Last edited:
When it comes to electronic media, I tell the parents that it is the same as when my mom would say to go outside and play because too much tv will rot your brain. I am thinking too many of these parents of these kids spent too much time watching tv themselves and don’t have enough neurological capacity left to figure out how to raise kids . 😛 About ten years ago there was a correlations finding between hours of tv and severity of ADHD symptoms and we are just beginning to see the same with video games and social media. My observations are that the effects of current media are even worse than tv. This is an area where I am very directive with parents. Set limits for creing out loud!
I tend to think that changes in parenting have a good deal to do with labor. You had the first industrial age when a large number of both men and women (and sometimes children) worked outside the home, which was a change from the more tribal family work in which children worked with their parents. Then a period of greater income equality and social mores were such that women focused more on housekeeping, although not necessarily child-rearing as we would consider it today. And then a period of both greater income inequality and stagnating wages but also coupled with ever-increasing consumerism that has led again to both men and women working outside the home and children being entirely separate from the world of adults.

I've always found it a bit strange that raising a child can both be described as the hardest, most important job in the world, yet it can also be considered nearly entirely optional and foisted onto minimum-wage hired hands.

I do think the amount of time that primary adult caregivers (parents) and children spend together is probably important. I'm not saying that the 1950s model is ideal or even that children need to be raised (as I'm not even entirely sure what that means), but merely spending time together to address issues together that inevitably come up during development.

The family that farms together stays together maybe?
 
When it comes to electronic media, I tell the parents that it is the same as when my mom would say to go outside and play because too much tv will rot your brain. I am thinking too many of these parents of these kids spent too much time watching tv themselves and don’t have enough neurological capacity left to figure out how to raise kids . 😛 About ten years ago there was a correlations finding between hours of tv and severity of ADHD symptoms and we are just beginning to see the same with video games and social media. My observations are that the effects of current media are even worse than tv. This is an area where I am very directive with parents. Set limits for creing out loud!

It's an interesting question. Is the association, however, causal? I think certainly people with ADHD are going to be much more compelled by the immediate and constant input and feedback of TV, social media, and video games. I imagine, though, that there is at least a behavioral reinforcement of indulging in these activities.
 
It's an interesting question. Is the association, however, causal? I think certainly people with ADHD are going to be much more compelled by the immediate and constant input and feedback of TV, social media, and video games. I imagine, though, that there is at least a behavioral reinforcement of indulging in these activities.
Of course it's not causal and we actually talked about the alternative explanations during supervision including the above and also parents with ADHD kids wanting them to watch more tv because they can be exhausting or that both tv and attentional problems being cause by another variable such as neglectful parenting. Regardless, I think it is pretty safe to say that involvement in a wider variety of activities is predictive of better development.
 
As someone who was subjected to some pretty epic bullying, both verbal and physical, in primary school especially; I think what would have helped me the most was two things:

1) To be believed and have the situation acknowledged. As opposed to the teacher's then approach of basically just shrugging their shoulders, and making unhelpful suggestions like, "Maybe you should just try and fit in more".

2) To work collaboratively to come up with a number of strategies I could have used to both keep myself safe, and to cope mentally with what was happening (building resillience).
 
15 y/o nephew was being bullied and constantly harassed. Told teachers and everybody about it but everybody said "Just ignore him."

I told him that if he was gonna get in a fight that he ensure that he had no other choice but to always strike first and strike hard ONLY if he felt that he was being cornered and words were not helping him to de-escalate the situation.

Lo and behold... the very next day... bully confronted nephew in between the lockers after gym class and nephew slumped him right in the nose after being pushed against the metal locker.

The initial shock combined with various spectators' "Ooooohhhh" 's and "Get him!!!" 's made his bully bust out in tears and run away.

I told my nephew to write an essay about bullying and to explain what he did and why he did it and to take full responsibility for everything.

The principal and his school administration were surprised about his maturity and how he dealt with the situation.

Result?

Nephew only got detention and the bully left him alone after that.

Sometimes life puts you in a corner... and you gotta do whatcha gotta do.
 
Top