How to best prepare myself after graduation?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

gasbait

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
92
Reaction score
6
Hello everybody,

I am currently in my last semester of university, and I've realized (admittedly very late in the game) that I'd like to apply for an MD/PhD program.

My GPA and Extracurriculars are very good, but I have absolutely zero research experience. Because of that, I am planning on taking 2-3 years to focus on improving that area of my application. The only thing is that I don't know the best way to get research experience. I've read about the Post-Bac NIH IRTA program, and I will definitely apply for that, but some other suggestions in case that doesn't work out would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
 
I'll try to help you out a bit, but I have a question for you first: how qualified are you to apply for MD only right now?

The problem is a bit of a conundrum. If you are qualified enough to apply and get into an MD position right now, you should go for that. An extra 2-3 years to supplement research credentials will likely not be worth it because it would be better to just go to medical school and spend the extra 2-3 years of research during a research oriented residency or fellowship.

If you have to take time to take a bunch of pre-requisite classes that you didn't take, take the MCAT, etc, then the dynamic is a bit different and maybe you can spend that time doing some research as part of a masters degree or in some sort of independent research job. However, 2-3 years is probably too long to delay your matriculation and I would try to get it done in 1-2 years at most.

Let us know where you stand and I can probably give you more useful advice.
 
Agree that 2-3 years extra is not a good idea- it is certainly not required. A one-year commitment like a pre-IRTA will suffice, IMHO. However, you really should immerse yourself in full-time research to make sure it's what you want to do for the rest of your life.
 
I'll try to help you out a bit, but I have a question for you first: how qualified are you to apply for MD only right now?

The problem is a bit of a conundrum. If you are qualified enough to apply and get into an MD position right now, you should go for that. An extra 2-3 years to supplement research credentials will likely not be worth it because it would be better to just go to medical school and spend the extra 2-3 years of research during a research oriented residency or fellowship.

If you have to take time to take a bunch of pre-requisite classes that you didn't take, take the MCAT, etc, then the dynamic is a bit different and maybe you can spend that time doing some research as part of a masters degree or in some sort of independent research job. However, 2-3 years is probably too long to delay your matriculation and I would try to get it done in 1-2 years at most.

Let us know where you stand and I can probably give you more useful advice.


Right now, I would say I am a very qualified applicant.

My GPA is 3.9+, Lots of ECs and leaderships, Clinical/Shadowing experience, etc. The only thing I am really missing is just the MCAT, but I don't think it's too unreasonable to think I can do well.

Would the research-oriented residency/fellowship be a better pathway? I'm only a little worried that I won't have the research skills/experience that I can obtain via a PhD.

Thank you so much for your help, by the way. Much appreciated!
 
In that case, you should get on taking the MCAT right away and make that your priority. There is only pathway to get the skills necessary to be a physician, and that's to go to medical school, so that's your #1 barrier to being a physician scientist.

There are a bunch of pathways to get the research skills to get started as a physician scientist. Extra year of research in medical school. Research track residency or fellowship. MD/PhD. An MD/PhD program is a very rigorous way to get research training, which is great, but it isn't very tailored to what you want or need because you're getting all this training based on some presumption about what you will be doing in the future. Generally speaking, research experience closer to when you begin your career is more valuable, because it can be more tailored to what you are actually doing, and there is no loss from being out of the field for however long. Any research you do before starting medical school, and especially an MD/PhD program will be useful only from a theoretical standpoint because it could be 12 years or more until you are actually a researcher. (Of course, I get it, these things build on themselves. More experience before a PhD can theoretically make it smoother, etc)

The real problem is time here. Right now 1-2 years seems like no big deal, right? If you spend 3 years doing research, then matriculate in an MD/PhD program, get out in a pretty smooth 4 year PhD, do a 2 year fast track IM residency + 4 year fast track fellowship, we are talking about 17 years of training, starting now. Meaning you can think about getting a junior faculty position in 2032. Just let that wash over you a little bit.

I'd recommend spending 1 year getting your MCAT in order, potentially doing one of these research programs while applying. Depending on where you go to school, you can approach people at your own or nearby universities about potential research opportunities. Alternatively, you could apply for these summer fellowships (SURF, etc), and then try to weasel that into a full year of working in a lab. A lot of labs have glorified techs that have undergrad level education and work on their own pseudo-independent projects, which is what you want. With a decent year, you will be a good MSTP applicant. Then, you can try to decide between applying to both MD or MD/PhD programs (or perhaps both, that way if your research experience is what limits you, then you can just head right into medical school). If MD only you can maybe take a year off between M2 and M3 and go to NIH for a research year, because a fair number of people do that. A few schools offer 5 year MD/MS type programs (like Cleveland Clinic). While not as robust as a PhD, you can spend the time you save getting extra experience at the end.

Don't get me wrong, I think MSTPs are a really interesting pathway, and that's what I did myself. However, I started straight out of college when I was 21. I was the first person out of my class to finish my PhD, in just under 4 years, did a 5 year residency and now am in a 2 year fellowship. Each year before you start just prolongs that goal. Each step of the way has been fun, but I'm now 35 and still in training (it gets old).
 
I endorse Shifty B's comments. It's really tough being in your mid 30s, still waiting to "drive the bus."
 
In that case, you should get on taking the MCAT right away and make that your priority. There is only pathway to get the skills necessary to be a physician, and that's to go to medical school, so that's your #1 barrier to being a physician scientist.

There are a bunch of pathways to get the research skills to get started as a physician scientist. Extra year of research in medical school. Research track residency or fellowship. MD/PhD. An MD/PhD program is a very rigorous way to get research training, which is great, but it isn't very tailored to what you want or need because you're getting all this training based on some presumption about what you will be doing in the future. Generally speaking, research experience closer to when you begin your career is more valuable, because it can be more tailored to what you are actually doing, and there is no loss from being out of the field for however long. Any research you do before starting medical school, and especially an MD/PhD program will be useful only from a theoretical standpoint because it could be 12 years or more until you are actually a researcher. (Of course, I get it, these things build on themselves. More experience before a PhD can theoretically make it smoother, etc)

The real problem is time here. Right now 1-2 years seems like no big deal, right? If you spend 3 years doing research, then matriculate in an MD/PhD program, get out in a pretty smooth 4 year PhD, do a 2 year fast track IM residency + 4 year fast track fellowship, we are talking about 17 years of training, starting now. Meaning you can think about getting a junior faculty position in 2032. Just let that wash over you a little bit.

I'd recommend spending 1 year getting your MCAT in order, potentially doing one of these research programs while applying. Depending on where you go to school, you can approach people at your own or nearby universities about potential research opportunities. Alternatively, you could apply for these summer fellowships (SURF, etc), and then try to weasel that into a full year of working in a lab. A lot of labs have glorified techs that have undergrad level education and work on their own pseudo-independent projects, which is what you want. With a decent year, you will be a good MSTP applicant. Then, you can try to decide between applying to both MD or MD/PhD programs (or perhaps both, that way if your research experience is what limits you, then you can just head right into medical school). If MD only you can maybe take a year off between M2 and M3 and go to NIH for a research year, because a fair number of people do that. A few schools offer 5 year MD/MS type programs (like Cleveland Clinic). While not as robust as a PhD, you can spend the time you save getting extra experience at the end.

Don't get me wrong, I think MSTPs are a really interesting pathway, and that's what I did myself. However, I started straight out of college when I was 21. I was the first person out of my class to finish my PhD, in just under 4 years, did a 5 year residency and now am in a 2 year fellowship. Each year before you start just prolongs that goal. Each step of the way has been fun, but I'm now 35 and still in training (it gets old).


Thank you so much for taking the time to write this ShiftyB. I've sat down and thought about it all this week, and I think you're right. I'm graduating college a year older than most people and, while I don't really mind the time commitment right now, there's no way I can tell I'll still feel okay with it 5 years down the road. I am just gonna focus on getting into an MD school for now, and I'll probably just do as research fellowship as you suggested.

Once again, thank you so much for offering such helpful advice!
 
Top