How to deal with "Snake Oil" believers

[28657]

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How do you guys deal with patients who refuse to believe factual information, in favor of the easy way out?

Basically I got "banned" from a different forum for disputing the "virtues of hot lemon water". The person I was disputing had posted this from "Dr" AF Beddoe:

The purpose of the lemon is to:
a) provide a natural strengthening agent to the liver enzymes when they are too dilute.
b) The liver can make more enzymes out of fresh lemon juice than any other food element.
c) The lemon helps fix oxygen and calciums in the liver because it regulates blood carbohydrate levels which affect the blood oxygen levels.”
Dr. Beddoe also cites an article by Dr. Michael Lesser on the medical promise of citric acid in “Anabolism, Journal of Preventive Medicine.”

I searched MedLine and Pubmed for any articles by either "Dr", but there were no articles authored by them. I tried to find articles supporting this lemon theory. I even tried to find the journal - "Anabolism, Journal of Preventative Medicine" which I don't think exists.
I tried telling the "lemon water advocate" all of this and that drinking hot lemon water is probably no different than eating any other miracle food (i.e. tomatoes, bananas...). But she came back at me saying I was only a "STUDENT" and a "pill counter". What the heck?!

Basically I'm really ticked off, and it seems fruitless to have the knowledge to help people, when people don't want to hear it!

Anyway I just needed to vent to some people that might understand my frustration. Thanks!

 

[ultracet]

i found what you are talking about...

http://proliberty.com/observer/20040711.htm


i did google the journal and found the lemon article references a doctor's CV,
http://www.drlowe.com/cvs/cvjcl.htm

and another article which references the journal
...

i do find it odd that google only had 4 sites....

 

[aphistis]

But she came back at me saying I was only a "STUDENT" and a "pill counter".

You might have asked about her own sterling academic credentials. 😉

 

[28657]

You might have asked about her own sterling academic credentials. 😉

I did 😉
Masters in Psych (the original lemon water advocate)

Masters in health and nutrition, physical therapist, massage therapist, colonic therapist, gym owner (the person who told the lemon water advocate to drink lemon water)

How the heck could someone be all of those professions? And don't even get me started on the colonics!

 

[ZpackSux]

Hmm..it's quite simple...

Ask for the clinical outcome of the trial of Lemon juice vs placebo..in ..wait. what does lemon juice do?

what objective data and findings are there? Where is the link to the forum..I'll go kick his arse for u..

 

[ZpackSux]

sounds like voodoo medicine to me..

 

[ZpackSux]

Ask the right questions..instead of criticizing.


a) provide a natural strengthening agent to the liver enzymes when they are too dilute.

What does it mean to strengthen liver enzymes? What enzymes? What clinical significance does it have to strengthen the enzymes? How does it strengthen?


b) The liver can make more enzymes out of fresh lemon juice than any other food element.

How does lemon juice make liver enzymes? Liver enzymes are protein based..are they not? If so..what is the role of lemon juice in production of liver enzyme? What clinical significance does it have to have more liver enzymes?

c) The lemon helps fix oxygen and calciums in the liver because it regulates blood carbohydrate levels which affect the blood oxygen levels.”

Why does Oxygen and Calcium need fixing? Are they broken? What does it mean to regulate carbohydrate level in blood... what mechanism is involved in carbohydrate regulation... does it involve Pancrease and inuslin release and the uptake of Blood Glucose at celluar level? What does it mean to affect blood oxygen level? does it mean higher O2 saturation? What mechanism is involved? What clinical significance does it have?

What are we treating? Hepatitis? Diabetes? HTN? Strepthroat? Yeast infction? What kind of trial has shown what types of results and clinical outcomes?

What da heck are we talking about???? Lemon Juice?

 

[28657]

Where is the link to the forum..I'll go kick his arse for u..

I wanted to kick their butts too! It's a surgical forum for patients, but unfortunately, they deleted the thread because the forum is about "support" and "friendship", not a place to offer professional advice. Whatever!

 

[Megalofyia]

I never liked lemonaide before but I might have to startd drinking it.

 

[ZpackSux]

I wanted to kick their butts too! It's a surgical forum for patients, but unfortunately, they deleted the thread because the forum is about "support" and "friendship", not a place to offer professional advice. Whatever!

Surgery forum?

1) NPO post midnight.
2) Ambien 5mg po HS prn.
3) Cefazolin 1gram IVPB On Call to OR
4) Fresh squeezed lemon Juice 8 oz PO On Call to OR..


couldn't resist....

 

[bananaface]

What does a colonic therapist do?

Is it 😱 or 😴 ?

 

[ZpackSux]

What does a colonic therapist do?

Is it 😱 or 😴 ?

They help you GoLytely

 

[bananaface]

They help you GoLytely

I was thinking they might specialize in some sort of lemonade enema.

 

[ZpackSux]

I was thinking they might specialize in some sort of lemonade enema.

That could hurt... a lot... don't they make Lemon flavored GoLytely?

 

[bananaface]

That could hurt... a lot... don't they make Lemon flavored GoLytely?

Lemon-Lime flavor packet.

 

[jdpharmd?]

I did 😉
Masters in Psych (the original lemon water advocate)

Masters in health and nutrition, physical therapist, massage therapist, colonic therapist, gym owner (the person who told the lemon water advocate to drink lemon water)

How the heck could someone be all of those professions? And don't even get me started on the colonics!

It seems funny that this hypothetical person would mix real professions with their snake oil. Physical therapist is a master's degree (for entry level!) position, with a doctorate on the horizon (and already being offered). Masters in health and nutrition sounds legit, but could be from just about anywhere, I suppose...

...but massage "therapist" and colonic "therapist" are both usually offered at the high $$ for-profit "trade schools" around here. Check out daytime or late night TV for the numbers. 🙂 They are usually either AA programs, or certificate only... so, you're telling me that a double master's degree candidate would pay tens of thousands of dollars to learn the hot rocks technique and litterally suck excrement from somebody's colon? Where do I sign up, and where can I get some of that lemon water. I've got a case of low liver enzymes... my colonic therapist told me so!

 

[latenitebookwrm]

What kind of forum was this? I'm just curious how such a topic came about.

 

[pharmergirl]

i found what you are talking about...

http://proliberty.com/observer/20040711.htm


i did google the journal and found the lemon article references a doctor's CV,
http://www.drlowe.com/cvs/cvjcl.htm

and another article which references the journal
...

i do find it odd that google only had 4 sites....

Oh, a chiropractor (bone-cracker). That explains it.

 

[ultracet]

Oh, a chiropractor (bone-cracker). That explains it.

i was thinking that.......

 

[nikkai]

Don't diss the chiro... go to one... they own you during that hour.... *sigh*

 

[Snapplemd]

Hmm..it's quite simple...

Ask for the clinical outcome of the trial of Lemon juice vs placebo..in ..wait. what does lemon juice do?

what objective data and findings are there? Where is the link to the forum..I'll go kick his arse for u..

I have the link to that place.....if you want it

 

[28657]

I have the link to that place.....if you want it

You must have done a lot of research to find the forum....

 

[ultracet]

ok folks just out of curiosity...

what all do you consider "snake oil" believers?
i mean....
are we talking all alternative therapists? just some? which ones??

i think there is merit to a lot of it even if it just the placebo effect....
the mind is an incredible thing...

i'm not saying the lemon juice thing....
but i do believe in acupuncture and of course massage therapy.....

 

[crying moo]

how could you go wrong with massage therapy! 🙂
I'll prescribe massage i QD prn life for all of you. Take with lemon water.
It will relieve depression, anxiety, hypertension,aches and pains, road rage, irritable bowels, bad fashion, homocide, and back hair. Oh yeah I forgot it will increase your liver enzymes too/

Hey I don't mind a massage and lemonade every day, just as long as insurance pays for it.

 

[jdpharmd?]

ok folks just out of curiosity...

but i do believe in acupuncture and of course massage therapy.....

I just read a study on accupuncture. One group was assigned treatment with the established yin and yang energy/nerve points or whatever, and the other was the "just stick the needles in anywhere" group. They had identical outcomes. 😉

 

[ultracet]

I just read a study on accupuncture. One group was assigned treatment with the established yin and yang energy/nerve points or whatever, and the other was the "just stick the needles in anywhere" group. They had identical outcomes. 😉

i honestly figured that if the needles hit the nerves then it would have an impact

*shrugs*

i still stand behind massage... now that's therapy!