How to earn excellent letters of rec (from professors)?

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V781

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I have a tendency to leave class as soon as it is done. I do not tend to build great relationships with professors. I have had a couple that seemed to like me for no clear reason -perhaps because I'm an older student at 26 (?). I've also had professors that acted indifferent toward me, even if I received a great grade and was an active participant in class.

I do listen well during lectures. In the more interesting classes, I will ask questions. However, there have been situations where a professor walked around the room to get to know students, and I came up short. I was the last one to leave lab one day and was furiously packing up to get out of there. Meanwhile, the professor had calmly begun walking over and asked me a question (don't recall what about - maybe about my plans). I answered curtly before thanking her and rushing out.



I just never want to be the last one in lab, keeping the professor waiting around. And I have a weird anxiety about being one on one with professors...I don't stutter or sweat, but rather feel awkward and unsure of where to take conversation. I tend to be fine with my peers and am not uncomfortable about having to speak with them.



So again, how can I work on my relationships with my professors from here on out and work toward those outstanding letters of recommendation? I suppose I'll need 2-3 from professors. I still have quite a few science courses to take (O Chem, Physics, Form&Function in Bio World, 1 qtr Calc, and 1 qtr Stats) before transferring for about 30 units of upper division courses, so I still have a chance. Also, if I do really well in O Chem this year (have been self studying two months before class begins) and get along well with the professor (who I know is involved and cares about her students), should I attempt to get a LOR even though I wouldn't graduate until 2020?
 
It sounds like you have a decent idea already of some of the tendencies that hold you back on this front, and now's a good time to start addressing them. A nice thing about having a lot of classes ahead of you is that you have plenty of time and aren't in a position where you're forced to ask every professor. Some professors are naturally more distant and, as you've picked up on, maybe not the best candidates for letters as they've made it clear how they want to play their roles. My experience is that the best candidates for letters are professors that seem receptive and engaged with the class. This isn't always the case, and sometimes these perceived attitudes are tied to the professor's perception of how much the class cares. A researcher teaching a 500 person general chemistry class is more likely to become jaded by the fact that most interactions are with students grubbing for better grades rather than trying honestly to understand the material.

I've personally had a much easier time building relationships with professors in whose courses I had a genuine interest or confusion about the subject material. The majority of these were in upper division courses where the class was smaller and the material was more difficult to grasp. This made coming up with questions and starting conversations with professors a lot more natural and even led to some research opportunities during my time in school. An academic will generally be much more receptive and willing to give of their time if you ask about something they are working on or about a possible extension of a topic discussed in class than they may be of answering a question that could have been clarified by a TA or an internet search.

It might be worth trying to approach each professor at least once either after class or during office hours to get an initial read on their receptiveness. If the vibe isn't good or you feel like the professor isn't willing to give you time, then back off-- if you do this once per class for the next couple of years, I'm confident you'll have enough opportunities to fill out your application. It may even lead to additional opportunities or relationships. I'm still in contact with several of my undergrad professors and make a point to hang out when I'm in the area, and even though I took their classes close to a decade ago, they'll be sources of strong letters when I apply next cycle.
 
V781 said:
I have a tendency to leave class as soon as it is done. I do not tend to build great relationships with professors. I have had a couple that seemed to like me for no clear reason -perhaps because I'm an older student at 26 (?). I've also had professors that acted indifferent toward me, even if I received a great grade and was an active participant in class.

I do listen well during lectures. In the more interesting classes, I will ask questions. However, there have been situations where a professor walked around the room to get to know students, and I came up short. I was the last one to leave lab one day and was furiously packing up to get out of there. Meanwhile, the professor had calmly begun walking over and asked me a question (don't recall what about - maybe about my plans). I answered curtly before thanking her and rushing out.



I just never want to be the last one in lab, keeping the professor waiting around. And I have a weird anxiety about being one on one with professors...I don't stutter or sweat, but rather feel awkward and unsure of where to take conversation. I tend to be fine with my peers and am not uncomfortable about having to speak with them.



So again, how can I work on my relationships with my professors from here on out and work toward those outstanding letters of recommendation? I suppose I'll need 2-3 from professors. I still have quite a few science courses to take (O Chem, Physics, Form&Function in Bio World, 1 qtr Calc, and 1 qtr Stats) before transferring for about 30 units of upper division courses, so I still have a chance. Also, if I do really well in O Chem this year (have been self studying two months before class begins) and get along well with the professor (who I know is involved and cares about her students), should I attempt to get a LOR even though I wouldn't graduate until 2020?
Click to expand...

A) Sit in the front of the class
B) Find out what the professor's research interests are
C) Chat witht he professor during office hours
D) When A-C are done, ask Professor: "Professor X, do you know me well enough to write me a good LOR for my med school app?"

Repeat as needed.
 
Goro said:
A) Sit in the front of the class
B) Find out what the professor's research interests are
C) Chat witht he professor during office hours
D) When A-C are done, ask Professor: "Professor X, do you know me well enough to write me a good LOR for my med school app?"

Repeat as needed.
Click to expand...

What do you chat about? The subject? The weather? The more personal topics such as family and hobbies?
 
Goro said:
Umm, coursework?
Click to expand...

...So, umm, the subject...


Most students discuss coursework with the Professor and most don't get letters of recommendation. Some appear to discuss hobbies and family with the professor. I'm asking how people have managed to develop great relationships with their professors. I understand that this all seems so irrelevant to you.
 
V781 said:
...So, umm, the subject...


Most students discuss coursework with the Professor and most don't get letters of recommendation. Some appear to discuss hobbies and family with the professor. I'm asking how people have managed to develop great relationships with their professors. I understand that this all seems so irrelevant to you.
Click to expand...

And you know this how? How many LORs have your read?????

OK, making this easier...start with coursework. Prof gets to know you. Then start asking about, oh, I don't know, maybe the same things you talk about when you meet someone for the first time and you want to know more about them?
 
Goro said:
And you know this how? How many LORs have your read?????

OK, making this easier...start with coursework. Prof gets to know you. Then start asking about, oh, I don't know, maybe the same things you talk about when you meet someone for the first time and you want to know more about them?
Click to expand...

Your LORs must have raved about how pleasant you are. Perhaps there are other threads you can saunter off to now.
 
Professors are just people, the same as any others you'd interact with, so there's not any particular hack to getting them to open up, like you, write you a letter, etc. Some are more personable than others, some more private. Some are more broadly curious, others are pretty consumed by the specific work that they do. You can start a conversation with a professor the same as you would with a person in any context. Most of the advantage of in-person classes over say, learning everything through online courses is that it breaks down barriers of access to experts in the field and gives you an easier platform from which to start conversation. Once you're over that hump, conversation can go wherever you like, but given that you know for sure one of the interests of the person teaching the class, sharing in that interest and some of your motivations for it is a reasonable place to start. As an older student, you have a bit of an advantage in that you likely have more in common with another professional adult than they do with your typical college kid.
 
Social Skills 101. Stop treating professors like they are demigods and more like extremely knowledgeable colleagues. Trust me, once you get over the "professor" title it makes casual conversation a lot easier (same goes for working with Docs, shadowing etc). By all means have respect, but just understand that professors and doctors are people too with interests/hobbies/etc.

Remember, people love to talk about themselves. The more questions you ask with GENUINE interest, the better.
 
tryptamine said:
Professors are just people, the same as any others you'd interact with, so there's not any particular hack to getting them to open up, like you, write you a letter, etc. Some are more personable than others, some more private. Some are more broadly curious, others are pretty consumed by the specific work that they do. You can start a conversation with a professor the same as you would with a person in any context. Most of the advantage of in-person classes over say, learning everything through online courses is that it breaks down barriers of access to experts in the field and gives you an easier platform from which to start conversation. Once you're over that hump, conversation can go wherever you like, but given that you know for sure one of the interests of the person teaching the class, sharing in that interest and some of your motivations for it is a reasonable place to start. As an older student, you have a bit of an advantage in that you likely have more in common with another professional adult than they do with your typical college kid.
Click to expand...

Your answers have been insightful and thought out. Thank you.

There seems to be such stigma around the professor-student relationship but I suppose as with anything in life, I should just stop worrying. I am generally a more reserved individual so approaching the professor to chat just goes against my natural inclination. I do already ask questions and the like, particularly in lab.
 
premedbrah said:
Social Skills 101. Stop treating professors like they are demigods and more like extremely knowledgeable colleagues. Trust me, once you get over the "professor" title it makes casual conversation a lot easier (same goes for working with Docs, shadowing etc). By all means have respect, but just understand that professors and doctors are people too with interests/hobbies/etc.

Remember, people love to talk about themselves. The more questions you ask with GENUINE interest, the better.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Yeah, I admit I am caught up by the title.
 
V781 said:
There seems to be such stigma around the professor-student relationship but I suppose as with anything in life, I should just stop worrying. I am generally a more reserved individual so approaching the professor to chat just goes against my natural inclination. I do already ask questions and the like, particularly in lab.
Click to expand...

Yep, you're exactly right. And any stigma is more than likely only in your perception. In the case that it even does exist, it has no bearing on the outcome. As a 30 year old taking classes with a bunch of 22 year olds right now, I honestly couldn't care less what their opinion of me is.
 
As others have said, university professors have their own lives and interests. Some love teaching, some hate it, some only like it with big or small classes. Some like lecturing vs. teaching hands-on in a lab, and others vice versa.

Being an older learner should make it easier for you to relate to them. The youngest PhDs usually earn their degree around age 27. I'm an older learner as well (30 y.o.), and I've found it very easy to get to know the professors. They are not godly beings residing in the Ivy Tower--they wake up everyday to head into their office and have projects they need to work on, vacations to plan, etc. My Gen Chem professor was younger than me! But that's okay, because we've both had life experiences that are equally valid, and these shaped who we are today.

Long story short: best thing to do is ask your teachers about their research. 9 out of 10 university professors and even TAs are involved in some kind of active research, and 10 out of 10 are interested in their respective fields. Show interest in physics, chemistry, and biology. If your Bio Lab TA spends her summers extracting DNA samples from chimpanzee poop in the Congo, that's pretty interesting right? If your physics professor used to work at NASA, that's fascinating too.

Asking about research may open doors into being able to assist them (if you want to do that). Just say "hey, your research sounds interesting, do you have any need for some volunteer help?" Chances are they'd love a free assistant.
 
LORs from professors are there to show schools that you are a capable student able to handle the coursework. They aren't character letters writing about how good of a person you are.

When the semester ends, email a professor who you feel might write a letter for you and say, "Hi Prof. Bob, My name is Jane Doe. I was a student of yours in CHEM223 - my lab station was in the back right near the eye wash. Currently, I'm pursuing a degree in Biology in hopes of applying to med school. As I'm sure you know, that entails getting letters of rec. Although I won't be applying until the summer of 2019, I wanted to know if you'd be willing to write a letter on my behalf. I've attached my CV and would be happy to come by your office to answer any questions that you have. Thank you in advance and I look forward to hearing from you."

V781 said:
Your LORs must have raved about how pleasant you are. Perhaps there are other threads you can saunter off to now.
Click to expand...
@Goro is an AdCom who has read more LORs that most. You asked for feedback and want spoon fed answers. No offense, but you're 26. You should be able to engage in pleasant conversation regardless of the pretense.
 
CyrilFiggis said:
LORs from professors are there to show schools that you are a capable student able to handle the coursework. They aren't character letters writing about how good of a person you are.

When the semester ends, email a professor who you feel might write a letter for you and say, "Hi Prof. Bob, My name is Jane Doe. I was a student of yours in CHEM223 - my lab station was in the back right near the eye wash. Currently, I'm pursuing a degree in Biology in hopes of applying to med school. As I'm sure you know, that entails getting letters of rec. Although I won't be applying until the summer of 2019, I wanted to know if you'd be willing to write a letter on my behalf. I've attached my CV and would be happy to come by your office to answer any questions that you have. Thank you in advance and I look forward to hearing from you."

@Goro is an AdCom who has read more LORs that most. You asked for feedback and want spoon fed answers. No offense, but you're 26. You should be able to engage in pleasant conversation regardless of the pretense.
Click to expand...
Nowadays I'm reading about 50-100/year. In the past, it's been more like 150-250.
 
I've had the greatest success simply by going in with genuine questions either about the subject matter or research. Honestly, the professor is going to be writing a letter based on your intellectual curiosity and ability to learn the subject matter - not on your hobbies. Professors will be able to gauge your interest in science (or another subject) when you talk about those subjects. Either go in during office hours or schedule an appointment. I went in with one professor to talk about research and instead got into an hour long conversation about his time abroad that summer (which was coincidentally where I studied abroad years before). He's known for not being the easiest person to talk to, but he talked a lot and he thought I was interesting because I listened. I've also had professors who clearly didn't want to talk further than just the questions I had on the material. Since you have so many classes ahead of you, take advantage of each and every one and go to office hours and talk about the subject. You probably will have questions, but if you don't, ACT like you have questions. It also helps to get a really great grade in the class. One of my best letters was from a professor who I talked with about how to study. I'm now doing research with his lab.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile
 
timephone said:
As others have said, university professors have their own lives and interests. Some love teaching, some hate it, some only like it with big or small classes. Some like lecturing vs. teaching hands-on in a lab, and others vice versa.

Being an older learner should make it easier for you to relate to them. The youngest PhDs usually earn their degree around age 27. I'm an older learner as well (30 y.o.), and I've found it very easy to get to know the professors. They are not godly beings residing in the Ivy Tower--they wake up everyday to head into their office and have projects they need to work on, vacations to plan, etc. My Gen Chem professor was younger than me! But that's okay, because we've both had life experiences that are equally valid, and these shaped who we are today.

Long story short: best thing to do is ask your teachers about their research. 9 out of 10 university professors and even TAs are involved in some kind of active research, and 10 out of 10 are interested in their respective fields. Show interest in physics, chemistry, and biology. If your Bio Lab TA spends her summers extracting DNA samples from chimpanzee poop in the Congo, that's pretty interesting right? If your physics professor used to work at NASA, that's fascinating too.

Asking about research may open doors into being able to assist them (if you want to do that). Just say "hey, your research sounds interesting, do you have any need for some volunteer help?" Chances are they'd love a free assistant.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did somewhat recently have a professor that must have been just 3-4 years older than me. In that situation, I did identify with her more. It was clear to me, however, that she was conscious of her young age and worried about it threatening her credibility. She would continually make comments in class about how old she was or about how she's been doing this for a long time...and she obviously hadn't even hit 30. So, generally, she appeared concerned about students become too familiar. She feared fitting in with the students. She wanted to stress her role. Many students called her intimidating and abrasive. I would have felt it wrong to "try to get to know" this professor. Though I do think she liked me well enough.

It brings up the fact that some professors indeed wish to maintain a great barrier between themselves and the students. I'm sure some do wish to see themselves as Godly but I assume these are the professors you couldn't get a decent LOR from anyway.
 
Last edited:
CyrilFiggis said:
@Goro is an AdCom who has read more LORs that most. You asked for feedback and want spoon fed answers. No offense, but you're 26. You should be able to engage in pleasant conversation regardless of the pretense.
Click to expand...

The attitude was unwelcome. It does not matter to me how many papers that user had read. It is not necessary to act in such a way because you've come across what you perceive to be a stupid question.

Yes, I'm 26. I'm well aware. I may be asking for advice about relationships with superiors (and all adults should be great with this, you suggest), but I absolutely do not allow others to demean me.
 
No one else has raised this but you really wanna focus on people who are good, generous people that you have at least a small measure of rapport with.

For my last letter I picked between an A+ who neurotically ranted every day in bio about Trump, a grouchy deflating radfem who gave me an A, and an inflating chill professor

I pickEd the inflating chill prof. He sent me a copy, I made the right choice
 
premedbrah said:
Social Skills 101. Stop treating professors like they are demigods and more like extremely knowledgeable colleagues. Trust me, once you get over the "professor" title it makes casual conversation a lot easier (same goes for working with Docs, shadowing etc). By all means have respect, but just understand that professors and doctors are people too with interests/hobbies/etc.

Remember, people love to talk about themselves. The more questions you ask with GENUINE interest, the better.
Click to expand...

This is so spot on.

Social skills 101 doesnt exist today. Few possess them. but if you have them, you are way ahead of your competition. You are absolutely right on the bolded. People will find time to talk to you if you ask them questions about them. Eventually they will ask you about you if you came across genuine
 
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