How to Fix ER Overcrowding

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@DrShazmaMithani

Recently, I’ve heard some comments about how people should have to pay to go to the ER so that it makes them think twice about going to the ER for things that aren’t an emergency. As an ER doctor, I want to tell you why this isn’t a solution to ER overcrowding.
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Your comments please...

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I don’t think she lives in the real world with the current American society.
 
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***************
@DrShazmaMithani

Recently, I’ve heard some comments about how people should have to pay to go to the ER so that it makes them think twice about going to the ER for things that aren’t an emergency. As an ER doctor, I want to tell you why this isn’t a solution to ER overcrowding.
***************


Your comments please...
I don't understand the post. Is there more? She says she wants to tell us why this isn't a good idea, and then proceeds to not explain why it isn't a good idea.

I certainly think that an up front copay at the ER would dissuade a decent number of BS visits from checking in.

A better solution honestly, would be medmal reform and endorsement by admin of doing actual MSEs. If you don't appear to be having an emergency, you go home. No BS customer service testing. No lawsuits for unicorn presentation misses.
 
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She was too busy being a mom to expound on her idea.

I hate accounts like this. They do dumb things all the time like post (Attention grabbing headline) followed by opinions dominated by feelings and arguments like: "as a mother, I wouldn't tolerate (whatever)."

Common trope.
 
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She was too busy being a mom to expound on her idea.

I hate accounts like this. They do dumb things all the time like post (Attention grabbing headline) followed by opinions dominated by feelings and arguments like: "as a mother, I wouldn't tolerate (whatever)."

Common trope.
Mandatory EMTALA exam for all patients up front (basically a quick exam, vitals, and minimum documentation of absence of medical emergency). If no medical emergency, then allows for wallet biopsy with transparent pricing for services. Couple that with mandatory co-pays of $15 for Medicaid/Medicare to see non-emergencies and it would get rid of crowding.
 
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I hate non-emergencies as much as the next EP, but let's not be naive. Unless malpractice/EMTALA reform is coupled with a large increase in pay for treating emergent conditions we would take a big pay cut with the decrease in volume. The small co-pays wouldn't cover the loss. We aren't willing to make that sacrifice in pay. I'd certainly celebrate same level pay for only seeing emergent conditions and MSE-ing out the rest, but I don't see the system accommodating that dream. We are too dependent on EDs delivering Acute Care Medicine. - Mount Asclepius, MD, ACMP (Wannabe EP)
 
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I hate non-emergencies as much as the next EP, but let's not be naive. Unless malpractice/EMTALA reform is coupled with a large increase in pay for treating emergent conditions we would take a big pay cut with the decrease in volume. The small co-pays wouldn't cover the loss. We aren't willing to make that sacrifice in pay. I'd certainly celebrate same level pay for only seeing emergent conditions and MSE-ing out the rest, but I don't see the system accommodating that dream. We are too dependent on EDs delivering Acute Care Medicine. - Mount Asclepius, MD, ACMP (Wannabe EP)

Let's parse this out:

How much overcrowding would be relieved if we just weren't BOARDING admitted patients?

I'm gonna say it would damn-near totally SOLVE my problem locally.
 
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Let's parse this out:

How much overcrowding would be relieved if we just weren't BOARDING admitted patients?

I'm gonna say it would damn-near totally SOLVE my problem locally.
Hospitals now view EDs as an extension of inpatient units. Hotels want every bed filled. Hospitals want every bed filled. You run at higher occupancy if your ED isn’t completely decompressed over night remaining filled with a decent number of admitted patients as overflow from the 100% occupancy hotel upstairs. We practice medicine, but health care is a business where medicine and healing take a back seat. I don’t see the nationwide problem of inpatient boarding improving. I think hospitals want it to occur.
 
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Also, if you bother to click on the links on the post, it goes right to her "blog" and Instagram nonsense, where there's lots of potions to buy and talk about "privileged" whatever and all your standard DEI talking points.

Yawn.
Yet another woman who has created a digital shrine to herself, so people can look at her very expensive and fashionable overcoat while she rails about how evil capitalism is.

Lol.

*cup of coffee emoji*
 
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Also, if you bother to click on the links on the post, it goes right to her "blog" and Instagram nonsense, where there's lots of potions to buy and talk about "privileged" whatever and all your standard DEI talking points.

Yawn.
Yet another woman who has created a digital shrine to herself, so people can look at her very expensive and fashionable overcoat while she rails about how evil capitalism is.

Lol.
What a joke. I actually detest MedTwitter and the docs that make their own websites for this reason. Either it’s an academic blowhard trying as hard as they can to wave the flag to bring attention to themselves, or it’s some random doc selling snake oil and trying to become the next Dr. Oz/Dr Drew.

Both make me want to barf.
 
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Hospitals now view EDs as an extension of inpatient units. Hotels want every bed filled. Hospitals want every bed filled. You run at higher occupancy if your ED isn’t completely decompressed over night remaining filled with a decent number of admitted patients as overflow from the 100% occupancy hotel upstairs. We practice medicine, but health care is a business where medicine and healing take a back seat. I don’t see the nationwide problem of inpatient boarding improving. I think hospitals want it to occur.

Your first sentence. Absolutely true. I was in that meeting with the admins and they flatly said it: "The ER is an extension of the inpatient units. There is no reason why we cannot use those beds for patient care."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the talk about "paying upfront" seemed like a total non-starter to me.
 
What a joke. I actually detest MedTwitter and the docs that make their own websites for this reason. Either it’s an academic blowhard trying as hard as they can to wave the flag to bring attention to themselves, or it’s some random doc selling snake oil and trying to become the next Dr. Oz/Dr Drew.

Both make me want to barf.

She might as well have just posted: "I'm a DOCTOR and a MOM. Here are my photos. Look how GLAM i AM."
 
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She was too busy being a mom to expound on her idea.

I hate accounts like this. They do dumb things all the time like post (Attention grabbing headline) followed by opinions dominated by feelings and arguments like: "as a mother, I wouldn't tolerate (whatever)."

Common trope.

Most commonly seen in the single mother population.
 
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On her website she refers to herself as a “female powerhouse.” I can’t take her seriously.
 
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Someone is gonna get "Me too'd"

I don't have a dog in the fight.
Married. No kids.
Speaking on behalf of my single bros out there who say these things.
I'm a highly social dude. In my dealings with the single mom crowd, I can't help but often think: "Wow, I can't effing stand you. No wonder."
For me to actively avoid you, you've gotta be pretty insufferable.
Even if I don't like you, I'll generally hang about out of curiosity, or to stir the pot.
We have a few of these types at work.
I really almost said to one the other week: "It's easy to see why you're divorced."

This doesn't apply to our Edmonton DocMomGirlBoss, as she makes sure you can see the ice on her left hand in her Glamshots.
 
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Let's parse this out:

How much overcrowding would be relieved if we just weren't BOARDING admitted patients?

I'm gonna say it would damn-near totally SOLVE my problem locally.

Very little where I work. We have a ~25 bed ED, see 50K/year, and are boarding 2-4 pts on average at any one time. We see patients out of the waiting room 24/7. We are flooded with non emergent pts all the time. we admit 12-15% of our population. ED Overcrowding is complicated and can't be fixed doing "1" thing, but certainly if people paid a copay to come in, it would reduce visits.

There is probably truth to the point she makes that people with an MI would stay home. But people also die and get delays in care when we have to see 48 people with toe fungus and too many nose hairs before seeing the MI.
 
Does it even mention an up front fee? I thought it just said fee. As in, she's heard some people say you should have to pay for professional services and she would like to go on record saying that she doesn't think people should have to pay for professional services.
 
Honestly a 15 dollar Medicare and Medicaid copay might mean unemployment for a lot of us as volumes would drop. It will be like the covid days.
 
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Note to the single mom crowd:

You're not a prize. Maybe if you weren't so insufferable, he would have stayed. Maybe.

Controversial take, I know.

The thing about single moms and dating is that they don’t want to date other single parents they only wanna date single people with no kids. And they will be glad to tell you that their kids come first.
 
Honestly a 15 dollar Medicare and Medicaid copay might mean unemployment for a lot of us as volumes would drop. It will be like the covid days.

Yeah also reduction in pay as well the cardiac arrest that you can't revive doesn't pay the pills it is the chest pain and abd pain and the worried well with insurance
 
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Honestly a 15 dollar Medicare and Medicaid copay might mean unemployment for a lot of us as volumes would drop. It will be like the covid days.
You are correct, but at some point the system is going to have to ration. We are moving more and more people on to Medicaid programs with the eventual goal of it being single payer for the country.
 
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Your first sentence. Absolutely true. I was in that meeting with the admins and they flatly said it: "The ER is an extension of the inpatient units. There is no reason why we cannot use those beds for patient care."
That's the kind of disruptive thinking that will lead to a small bonus or maybe an extra word in your title.

I worked in a hospital that gave the productivity for boarding patients to the unit to which they were eventually assigned. It allowed the units to have unbelievable productivity (raises all around for their directors) while our nurses did 5000-7000 hrs per month of unbudgeted care. Good times...
 
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***************
@DrShazmaMithani

Recently, I’ve heard some comments about how people should have to pay to go to the ER so that it makes them think twice about going to the ER for things that aren’t an emergency. As an ER doctor, I want to tell you why this isn’t a solution to ER overcrowding.
***************


Your comments please...
She’s not saying anything that hasn’t been said a thousand times before, which is wordy version of, “I care the most!”

Does she have effective solutions?

Or is she virtue signaling for a foot in the door of an admin, politics or government position that’ll exempt her from having to practice what she preaches?
 
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All those non-emergent nothing-burgers keep us employed btw.
Bingo.

ED overcrowding is 80% due to outflow obstruction (inpatient beds, xfer time, ICU capacity, psych holds) and not just incoming volume of patients.

I’m not saying I love being a 24/7 UC for people who may or may not pay / have a PCP, but even when we get surges of them we can easily put them in chairs, stack them in halls, see them in the WR, and plow through them.

When 80% of my cardiac monitor stretch capacity is eaten by patients WE are done with that need admission / xfer, then we’re screwed…
 
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I hate non-emergencies as much as the next EP, but let's not be naive. Unless malpractice/EMTALA reform is coupled with a large increase in pay for treating emergent conditions we would take a big pay cut with the decrease in volume. The small co-pays wouldn't cover the loss. We aren't willing to make that sacrifice in pay. I'd certainly celebrate same level pay for only seeing emergent conditions and MSE-ing out the rest, but I don't see the system accommodating that dream. We are too dependent on EDs delivering Acute Care Medicine. - Mount Asclepius, MD, ACMP (Wannabe EP)
Free MSE for anyone. $10 co-pay for all Medicaid/uninsured patients that are deemed to not have emergent medical conditions in order to see a physician.

In all honesty most of these patients’ problems could be fixed with $10 worth of OTC meds or medical supplies. It would actually be more efficient to pay THEM $10 to not be seen.
 
Gonna mostly say it's not the patients that are the problem, but the lack of reliable alternative access to care. If primary care could reliably see the primary care bits – and have enough time in their schedule to deal with it, rather than turf it to the ED – then behaviours might change.

And probably specialist wait times have some impact, as well.
 
Primary care will not see acute visits anymore any problem go to urgent care or ER if it isn’t related to their chronic condition
 
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Honestly a 15 dollar Medicare and Medicaid copay might mean unemployment for a lot of us as volumes would drop. It will be like the covid days.

It might. Actually ER volume might stay the same or be a slight drop. There was a medicaid study in Idaho about sharing expense and making medicaid patients pay a $2 copay for office visits, medicines, and er visits, and they did use it less. It caused more hospitalizations because people wouldnt' buy their medicines and see their doctor and ended up being admitted for poorly controlled HTN, diabetes, etc.

We need a way to have less people use ER services, period. I don't really care how we do it. If our volumes were up and the majority of patients were still sick and warranted emergency care, then so be it. But we are seeing so much nonsense. And the volumes of nonsense clog the ERs, delay us from helping really sick people, and healthy people get angry because we are not delivering "quality health care in a timely fashion" when they are ultimately going to the wrong place in the first place.

There are lots of things we can do to improve our health care system and our ER system, and making people pay for services is one of them. Kind of like building a wall on the border between us and mexico. At least in the high trafficked areas. It's not the only solution but it's one of many that we can do.
 
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Gonna mostly say it's not the patients that are the problem, but the lack of reliable alternative access to care. If primary care could reliably see the primary care bits – and have enough time in their schedule to deal with it, rather than turf it to the ED – then behaviours might change.

And probably specialist wait times have some impact, as well.

So I'm gonna disagree on some level. I don't think patients are 100% fault, but I place more blame than perhaps you do.

Ultimately it comes down to expectations of delivering health care on the patient's schedule. For the longest time, for hundreds of years, people would have ailments and aches and pains and whatever and they would just deal with them. Whether they would be orthopedic, cough, rashes, headaches, minor infections, and so forth. They would just deal with it for days if not weeks and what would happen is the majority of these would just get better, and a minority of them would get worse, and then they would see a doctor.

Now adays, patients want immediate access to health care for these minor ailments, and we don't have a system set up for that. It requires a lot more resources to be able to see doctors immediately for everything at a moments notice. This in combination that patients are becoming more complicated too as we engineer new novel therapies, immunologics, and so forth for all sorts of inflammatory ailments, cancers, etc. We are keeping people alive longer and they need more health care as a result. This phenomemon would be measured in the number of visits to see doctors (or any health care practiticioner) per year, maybe subanalysis as grouped by decade. The appearance is that we are seeking more medical care, more quickly in this decade as compared to the 1980s, 1950s, etc. Problem is I'm not sure this has been measured, although I'm not super smart and I suspect this on some level has been measured.

On some level if we keep people alive longer and have more advanced therapies, we need to train more doctors that we would need in years 1900s or 1800s, and we haven't done that. But we also need patients to stop wanting immediate health care for a bunch of silly complaints that they just have to deal with, and have dealt with, for decades and centuries.

So we need more doctors. And we also need to have patients have a little more patience with their bodies. If they want immediate access to health care, then I think it's reasonable that they pay for it. (And by the way I think true emergency care should be a social benefit taxed at state or federal level.) Specifically in ER we are getting flooded with all sorts of non emergencies and are responsible for taking care of all the gaps we have in our health care system, and it's overwhelming and is probably #1 or #1a in contributing to ER burnout.
 
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Patients are a big part of the problem. The unreal expectation to get every test whenever they want along with having their symptoms (no matter how long they’ve been present) be cured within seconds of arriving to the ED are massive problems. The expectation to be cared for despite them not caring for themselves is another huge issue.
 
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Honestly a 15 dollar Medicare and Medicaid copay might mean unemployment for a lot of us as volumes would drop. It will be like the covid days.
Nah, we did this at one of our community ERs in residency, except it was $50 after MSE of non emergent medicaid/self pay patients. Most still stayed. Those docs were some of the best paid docs in the region.
 
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Nah, we did this at one of our community ERs in residency, except it was $50 after MSE of non emergent medicaid/self pay patients. Most still stayed. Those docs were some of the best paid docs in the region.

We did this while I was in residency too.
People stayed. The nonsense that left was "tooth pain" and "work note".

It was discontinued because reasons.

@Tenk - it was before you got there. I thought it was brilliant. It was Wrestlemania's idea.
 
Patients are a big part of the problem. The unreal expectation to get every test whenever they want along with having their symptoms (no matter how long they’ve been present) be cured within seconds of arriving to the ED are massive problems. The expectation to be cared for despite them not caring for themselves is another huge issue.

Say it.
 
Gonna mostly say it's not the patients that are the problem, but the lack of reliable alternative access to care. If primary care could reliably see the primary care bits – and have enough time in their schedule to deal with it, rather than turf it to the ED – then behaviours might change.

And probably specialist wait times have some impact, as well.
Nope.

This is undoubtedly true in many places but its definitely more of a patient issue where I am and I doubt upstate SC is unique in this.

The longest my patients have to wait to see me is 2 days (and that's coming off of vacation). Usually its same/next day. For lots of things I'll even double book them that day.

We also have 5 hospital-owned urgent cares in the county with probably another 5-6 corporate urgent cares scattered about.

I still probably have 10-15 patients go to the ED every day, usually for minor stuff.
 
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***************
@DrShazmaMithani

Recently, I’ve heard some comments about how people should have to pay to go to the ER so that it makes them think twice about going to the ER for things that aren’t an emergency. As an ER doctor, I want to tell you why this isn’t a solution to ER overcrowding.
***************


Your comments please...

I don't know how to read threads on X unless I'm specifically brought to the page with the whole thread posted out.

I'm really thankful I don't, with this one.
 
Pay patients to leave. That would work.
 
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The reality is that there is no incentive if only EM doctors care. The public wants the ED to be more efficient no one wants to see patients pcps have abandoned acute care

People should just pay their local EDs 100 a month similar to how they pay health insurance
 
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We have one guy at work. Patient, if you can call him that.

He's homeless and constantly drunk. He walks in and demands treatment for whatever, gets confused, throws a tantrum, and walks out. He then staggers a few blocks away to another ER and does the exact same thing.

So his day is pretty much staggering between the two ERs, being nonspecifically disruptive.

He's generally gone by the time the police show up. Little we can actually do to stop him because though he's drunk, the sucker is fast.
 
"We'll give you $10 to f*** off and walk across the street to Walgreens and buy the Tylenol/pregnancy test you're here to get for 'free'". That could work.
Yes, my post was meant to be a joke. But I worked for a hospital that actually did this.

They had so many psych boarders costing them money by taking up hospital beds, they arranged a contract with a local psych hospital to accept them as long as the hospital paid for their stay at a pre-arranged price. The sum they agreed to pay, was less per patient than they were losing by allowing them to take up a bed.

They literally paid them to go away.
 
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