How to grow without being overwhelmed

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Dude, If it takes you longer than 20 seconds to perform an SI, I would be scared to send someone to YOU.

haha. I would reward you(you have my word) or anyone if you can kindly post a video to show us "how to perform a SI joint injection in 20sec" with all the steps that I mentioned.

Either you are one of the best(the other being Tenesma) in SI joint injection, or you think SI joint is TPI. Otherwise, I will not respond to the trolls.
 
it takes me a lot longer. Maybe 3-4 minutes. I put the local in, put the needle where it goes, if i dont get an arthrogram right away, which is common, i reposition, and then i inject the steroid at a reasonable pace. This takes me longer than 20 seconds. Please do not send me any patients, as i must be awful.

My classmate who is a Mayo pain attending takes an average of 3-5 mintes to do an SI joint. Add 2 more(me and him) pain docs that cannot perform an SI joint n 20secs.
 
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I'm pretty sure he threw out "20 seconds" in the same way you would respond to someone who asked you how many medial branch blocks you've done:

"Oh, probably millions"
 
I can't get in the SIJ in 20s. Seriously, are you willing to let other pain guys shadow you? I'm always looking to learn and have shadowed a few since I started my own practice which has been very helpful. I doubt we're closer enough to be competitors.

1) Not a block shop - 8-10 procedures per day and 30 f/u/NPs per day would show that my % of procedures to office visits is actually on the low end...
2) I don't do E/M at same time as procedure - procedures are procedures, no reviewing charts, no re-examing patients... i have an efficient procedure suite... i mean, really --- how long does it take to do an SI joint? (20 seconds?) and ESI 3-4 minutes???
3) Some of my visits are 20-30 minutes (my more complicated NP and f/u) - but a lot of visits don't need to be that long
4) Because I don't rx narcs - I don't need to spend time playing the negotiating games - I just say :"Narcotics are not indicated, but here are the options I can offer you..." if they try to negotiate, then i say "I am sorry that I can't meet your perceived needs here, I'd be glad to refer you to another pain doc to get a 2nd opinion".
5) it is all about efficiency --- think about sitting down with a follow-up patient - how much time does it really take to 1) chit-chat about their grandchildren 2) examine them while chit-chatting 3) look at your plan from 2 months ago and tell them what the next step is...
6) the way i stop myself from rushing is that I do ask them if they have any further questions... when they say no, then I know that my job is done and that i can move onto the next patient.
 
20 seconds is to make a point - it shouldn't take 20 minutes to do simple procedures.

My fluoro tech has the SI joint all lined up for me
My drugs are pulled up sterile by the RN
I use a 16 gauge needle (that was used to draw up the med) and place it on SI joint as a pointer - take fluoro to confirm entry site.
I numb up w/ buffered local then advance my needle ... I only use contrast if it looks like a tricky joint - but if there is a beautiful easy view of the joint, I will skip contrast, then aspirate, then inject my solution...done... this really isn't rocket science...

Sure, I have had SI joints that took me a few minutes to struggle with - only to realize I was using the wrong fluoro plane (got tricked by the shadows).... and sure, I have had SI joints that no matter what I did, I just couldn't get into the joint (thankfully that is not common)

but my point still stands - if you have an efficient system, injections shouldn't take that much time (except for the 420 lbs patients with hardware).

seriously, next time you do a procedure, have your tech/RN/whatever time you from time of local to time of needle withdrawal... if it seriously takes you more than a minute or 2 for a regular SI joint, then that is concerning....

what is amazing is that when I point out that I have an efficient system, some of you guys are more interested in labelling me as a needle jockey (which based on statistical analysis I am not) or that I rush patients (which based on patient surveys has NOT been a complaint) - instead of asking yourself how you too can run a more efficient system... now some of you may be convinced that your system is perfect, that's fine... In fact, I know a PCP who can't see more than 12 patients a day - and he is convinced that he has the perfect system, and that seeing more patients would harm patient safety... but then he shouldn't complain because he isn't as productive as I am...
 
oh.... and relying on somebody who is an ACADEMIC pain doc as a barometer of speed is kind of odd...
 
to each his/her own, but do you let your nurses talk to your patients? my point is, working with a nurse practitioner does not mean that the nurse practitioner dictates care of your patients. the NP/PA is an extension of you and your practice patterns. My NP never makes changes to opioids. I do.

the advantages - it allows me to make the clinic near profitable, and i doubt very few have a profitable clinic that is over 60% care/caid...[/QUOTE



Yeah but when it comes down to it if you and I are equal in every respect except you have NP's and I dont, I can guarantee that the referring providers and patients will prefer me over you.
 
Yeah but when it comes down to it if you and I are equal in every respect except you have NP's and I dont, I can guarantee that the referring providers and patients will prefer me over you.

My understanding was that Ducttape worked for a hospital. My guess would be that they own some primary care providers as well. Consequently, you and I will never see his patients as they are kept internal.
 
i don't think referring docs care about NPs as long as the NPs name is not on the consultation report back to the PCP...
 
My understanding was that Ducttape worked for a hospital. My guess would be that they own some primary care providers as well. Consequently, you and I will never see his patients as they are kept internal.




If that is the case...then yes I agree. I actually sent some surveys to refering PCP's and patients about three years ago. One of the questions that I asked both patients and PCPs related to attitudes about midlevels. I was very surprised by the responses. 79 of 91 patients said that they absolutely did not want to see a midlevel at a specialist visit. Some actually wrote in comments as well. 11 of 16 PCP's said that they did not like it when their patients saw midlevels for more than half of a visit when referring to specialists. Almost all said that with all other things being equal that they would refer to the specialist who did not have midlevels. These are my feelings as well but the robustness of the response really surprised me. I got more input on this question than any other question on the survey. Your PCP's/patients might feel differently. The only way to know for sure is to ask.
 
If that is the case...then yes I agree. I actually sent some surveys to refering PCP's and patients about three years ago. One of the questions that I asked both patients and PCPs related to attitudes about midlevels. I was very surprised by the responses. 79 of 91 patients said that they absolutely did not want to see a midlevel at a specialist visit. Some actually wrote in comments as well. 11 of 16 PCP's said that they did not like it when their patients saw midlevels for more than half of a visit when referring to specialists. Almost all said that with all other things being equal that they would refer to the specialist who did not have midlevels. These are my feelings as well but the robustness of the response really surprised me. I got more input on this question than any other question on the survey. Your PCP's/patients might feel differently. The only way to know for sure is to ask.

first, i think that has to do with the area that one practices in.

in this area, midlevels are ubiquitous, and almost all the primaries have one. your survey results dont surprise me, as everyone and their brother wants to be seen by "the doc"...

and mille, if all things were equal, i wouldnt be taking care/caid, and possibly not even comp, and might not need NPs/PAs. even so, if all other things were equal, one of the huge advantages of NPs is improved efficiency, and if a patient has to decide on going to your office, earliest in 4 weeks, or mine in 2 days...


thats what Tenesma is pointing to - having someone else who does the work that is not essential to the physician. Im sure if all of us had a situation where someone else does all the set up, and all we had to do is come in and push down on the block needle, we could all be much more efficient. but it initially costs money to get there.

its a delicate balance. i remember reading a practice audit advice - hiring more staff, while in the short run costs more, in the long run means much better financial rewards by making the physician much more efficient. Of course, but too much staff, and the extra stress of additional people/personalities...
 
first, i think that has to do with the area that one practices in.

in this area, midlevels are ubiquitous, and almost all the primaries have one. your survey results dont surprise me, as everyone and their brother wants to be seen by "the doc"...

and mille, if all things were equal, i wouldnt be taking care/caid, and possibly not even comp, and might not need NPs/PAs. even so, if all other things were equal, one of the huge advantages of NPs is improved efficiency, and if a patient has to decide on going to your office, earliest in 4 weeks, or mine in 2 days...


thats what Tenesma is pointing to - having someone else who does the work that is not essential to the physician. Im sure if all of us had a situation where someone else does all the set up, and all we had to do is come in and push down on the block needle, we could all be much more efficient. but it initially costs money to get there.

its a delicate balance. i remember reading a practice audit advice - hiring more staff, while in the short run costs more, in the long run means much better financial rewards by making the physician much more efficient. Of course, but too much staff, and the extra stress of additional people/personalities...


I dont think that you are more efficient with midlevels

As usual we will have to agree to disagree. We are obviously in two different worlds with the only unifying factor being that we both practice pain.
 
i am seeing myself the same number of patients before the NP arrived, but the wait time for an appointment has decreased from 3 1/2 months to 1-2 weeks. The wait time for a new eval has decreased from 4-5 months to 2-3 weeks (that was with 3 new evals per day).

additionally, i am not seeing the routine follow up patients (med management, etc), and my procedure rate per day has tripled.

i think that is efficiency...
 
I dont think that you are more efficient with midlevels

As usual we will have to agree to disagree. We are obviously in two different worlds with the only unifying factor being that we both practice pain.

Wait, please don't agree to disagree just yet. These are both interesting point of views and will be helpful to me if the time comes to consider hiring a mid-level.

Why don't you think a midlevel would make you more efficient?
 
a mid-level can make you more efficient if used smartly - ie: to facilitate patient flow in the practice - for most straightforward patients they can collect the data, enter the data, present to you the situation, you walk in and make the plan and walk out.... however, that can make it a bit too factory like...
 
Ideally I just want to briefly talk to the pt to connect and understand what's going on, then make a medical decision, and do procedures, if indicated. I would happily do that all day.

If someone who's not a physician can do everything else (authorization, proper documentation including "meaningful use criteria", policy description and enforcement, and general small talk), I would be happy. I want to issue decrees and have them reliably followed by intelligent people who will notice if something is not quite right..

But I'm not sure that's realistic. In my experience, at the VA anyway, despite all the people who are supposed to be helping me, EVERYTHING is much faster and more reliably accomplished if I just do it myself.
 
oh.... and relying on somebody who is an ACADEMIC pain doc as a barometer of speed is kind of odd...

i respect you, and you know this (as much as you can respect a nameless, faceless person on the interweb) but I COULD do a 20-60 second SI joint injection if i took the "i only use contrast if i think its going to be tough joint" approach

I use contrast on EVERY si joint. and even when i think it is as easy as it could be, the contrast is not usually in the joint when i drop it in. I may have to reposition it once that might take literally 10 seconds, but still 1/10 maybe 1/20 is "boom, drop the needle, inject and perfect" most are boom drop the needle, inject, not perfect, one maybe two very quick adjustments and done... still maybe takes 2 minutes if its super easy, but the point is the contrast was not perfect, thus NO USING contrast can make for a VERY VERY quick injection.

Now, this is not a discussion about do you NEED an arthrogram, but if you are trying to make sure that you are injection INTO the joint, not using contrast 100% will lead to many "missed" injection, that ultimately may result in exactly the same good outcome.

if you know what im sayin...
 
I dont think that you are more efficient with midlevels

As usual we will have to agree to disagree. We are obviously in two different worlds with the only unifying factor being that we both practice pain.

i am not MORE efficient in the office with a midlevel, AT ALL. But i dont have to SEE the stuff that would make me shoot myself in the face.
 
how about an office manager to do the admin things you are doing? It's not the best use of your time. Also have her do the billing so you can keep it in house. Billing companies usually only pick the low hanging fruit. I fired mine when i realized they were making a huge amount of money for the same work for 99214's vs a set of LFB's. It just didnt seem fair....to me.

DEFINITELY get rid of the worst payors. Medicaid appt's are in 6m. If the patient really wants to screw you they will have medicaid CALL YOU. But you can make it short and sweet if all they want is narcs. Your PCP's will be happy you just didnt reject them if you did a curbside consult also.
 
i am seeing myself the same number of patients before the NP arrived, but the wait time for an appointment has decreased from 3 1/2 months to 1-2 weeks. The wait time for a new eval has decreased from 4-5 months to 2-3 weeks (that was with 3 new evals per day).

additionally, i am not seeing the routine follow up patients (med management, etc), and my procedure rate per day has tripled.

i think that is efficiency...



Again, two differences of thoughts. First of all there is no way that you should have a 3.5 month waiting list for returns or 4-5 month waiting list for new patients. If so something is horribly wrong with scheduling or you are mired in bureaucratic red tape. Those kind of waits are not equated with survival in the PP world.


You are calling seeing more patients as efficient. I dont see this as efficiency. I could make it where i see 60 per day in the same amount of time if I wanted to. I would spend half the time with everyone and make double the money. Is that more efficient? More profitable yes. More efficient no. Of course you will beg to differ as expected.
 
one, i dont do private practice.

two, in case i hadnt mentioned it before, i took over a practice, probably 2000+ patients. so i have not only the legacy patients to see, but also the new patients.

i am not talking about seeing an excessive number of patients here, in fact, way fewer than private practice people see.

i am talking about seeing the same number of patients, but getting them seen sooner, so, pardon me for doing so, but to paraphrase your words, "spend (the same amount of) time with everyone and (see) double the (patients)." its efficiency of the entire clinic, not an individual patient appointment.
 
As I found out years ago, seeing more patients does not translate to more take-home pay. Often it is less. More staff, larger space, many things increase the costs.
 
one, i dont do private practice.

two, in case i hadnt mentioned it before, i took over a practice, probably 2000+ patients. so i have not only the legacy patients to see, but also the new patients.

i am not talking about seeing an excessive number of patients here, in fact, way fewer than private practice people see.

i am talking about seeing the same number of patients, but getting them seen sooner, so, pardon me for doing so, but to paraphrase your words, "spend (the same amount of) time with everyone and (see) double the (patients)." its efficiency of the entire clinic, not an individual patient appointment.



If it works for you go for it. I doesnt work for me and never will.
 
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