how to have a "solid" application

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Thundercatz

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Hi,

Im in the process of finishing up my application, but I am not sure if its good enough. I think I have solid EC activities (shadowing, volunteer work, TA, and some good outside of school hobbies), but somehow I am not feeling it.

So, my question is, what makes an application "solid." I am not sure if I am providing enough description for my EC activities. How much should I write in there? Maybe I am just being paranoid.

Any advice would be awesome!

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Unfortunately there really isn't a formula for a "solid" application. You will find that a lot of it depends on the school itself, and whether or not you have what they're looking for. If you say you have solid EC's and assuming you have good GPA/DAT scores then you should be set. It helps that your getting your app in early too. Don't sweat it though. Submit the app and enjoy the rest of your summer. Best of luck.
 
The following is a solid application:

30 DAT
4.0 GPA
5000 hours of ec
Graduate from Princeton
Working 20 hours a week while taking 18 credits/semester
Amazing LOR

I know I'm being sarcastic...its been a long day.
 
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The following is a solid application:

30 DAT
4.0 GPA
5000 hours of ec
Graduate from Princeton
Working 20 hours a week while taking 18 credits/semester
Amazing LOR

I know I'm being sarcastic...its been a long day.

Theoretically, that would be awesome. Haha, but in the real process, I would say, good EC's, good GPA, good DAT, at least 200 shadowing hours, dental assisting, and a genuine interest in the field...............you will get in, even if it takes you multiple tries. Thats the best "generic" advice I can give you. Now in reality, most applicants have a mix. Ex: some ahve high GPA's, others not so, but may have more dental experience...... Don;t worry about everyone else though, just do what you can to be well rounded, and make sure what you are doing is reletive to the field in some way.
 
Theoretically, that would be awesome. Haha, but in the real process, I would say, good EC's, good GPA, good DAT, at least 200 shadowing hours, dental assisting, and a genuine interest in the field...............you will get in, even if it takes you multiple tries. Thats the best "generic" advice I can give you. Now in reality, most applicants have a mix. Ex: some ahve high GPA's, others not so, but may have more dental experience...... Don;t worry about everyone else though, just do what you can to be well rounded, and make sure what you are doing is reletive to the field in some way.

I like that. Kinda inspirational in a way :)
 
I would say more and more schools (especially prestigious ones) are looking for evidence of true leadership experiences and unique attributes or interests. Competition is getting fiercer every year recently, and you will realize many applicants have shadowing/assisting/volunteering/research on their EC list. The best strategy is to avoid being too generic, but distinguish yourself by doing something unique and that truly inspires/motivates you. That, of course, doesn't mean you shouldn't do any shadowing or volunteering, but you should definitely avoid the hazard of doing a myriad of activities without being able to form a convincing story to attract the adcom's attention.
 
Theoretically, that would be awesome. Haha, but in the real process, I would say, good EC's, good GPA, good DAT, at least 200 shadowing hours, dental assisting, and a genuine interest in the field................

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Nobody needs 200 hours of shadowing. If you need 200 hours to decide whether or not you really want to be a dentist (which is the goal of shadowing), then I'd say either your commitment to dentistry is in question or you just take to long to make up your mind! :laugh:
I'd put it at about 40hr shadowing, 40hr volunteering for "solid" status (plus GPA/DAT numbers). Personally, I think holding down a regular job proves a lot more about character than any kind of volunteering (which proves what?), but popular wisdom holds that schools want to see examples of altruistic "compassion."
 
I would say more and more schools (especially prestigious ones) are looking for evidence of true leadership experiences and unique attributes or interests. Competition is getting fiercer every year recently, and you will realize many applicants have shadowing/assisting/volunteering/research on their EC list. The best strategy is to avoid being too generic, but distinguish yourself by doing something unique and that truly inspires/motivates you. That, of course, doesn't mean you shouldn't do any shadowing or volunteering, but you should definitely avoid the hazard of doing a myriad of activities without being able to form a convincing story to attract the adcom's attention.

What is this leadership you speak of?
My school has over 25k students. There is 1 predent club so I can't lead that. Maybe they mean leadership as in, you DO have a social life.
 
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Nobody needs 200 hours of shadowing. If you need 200 hours to decide whether or not you really want to be a dentist (which is the goal of shadowing), then I'd say either your commitment to dentistry is in question or you just take to long to make up your mind! :laugh:
I'd put it at about 40hr shadowing, 40hr volunteering for "solid" status (plus GPA/DAT numbers). Personally, I think holding down a regular job proves a lot more about character than any kind of volunteering (which proves what?), but popular wisdom holds that schools want to see examples of altruistic "compassion."

I would hope you are not serious. So let me get this straight, you are saying you could obverse/shadow a profession for lets say....20-40hrs, and make up your mind that you want to devote your life to it?!?. I DON'T THINK SO! "Hey I'll think I'll shadow my dentist or a random dentist for half a work week to learn what the practice is like even though its been running for more than a decade, get an LOR, and i'm done, just sit back and wait to get into school". Thats the sad attitude that I'm sorry to say is becoming more and more prevalant. First off, 20-40hrs is barely a full-work week. IMHO, that doesn't come close to cutting it. Since you are applying to Dental school, I would expect my applicants to know AS MUCH AS THEY CAN ABOUT THE FIELD, especially if you are planning to devote your money, education, and career to the field. Now, I hope that most people don't sit in the corner of the office like mutes and "observe" or should I say "shadow". If you are as enthusiastic as I am, you will LEARN procedures, get to know patients, stay after hours to help the dentist in the lab, and it may eventually turn into assisting. If you really want to go to dental school, then everything you do should be relevent to the field! Frankly, having a good GPA/DAT combination proves you have the academics, study skills, and maturity needed in Dental education. However, ADCOM's are going to want to see experience and that you know EXACTLY what your getting into. And the bottom line is, you can have the solid GPA/DAT, but if you don't have the neccessary dental experience to top it off (it will show you have not the slightest idea of what your getting into), your no better than anyone else who attempts to apply. Let me tell you one thing, if I was on an ADCOM, I'd throw that app. away, because with the high volume of #'s applying these days, there is someone else out there with the same GPA/DAT who worked their tail off in an Dental office to gaining relevant knowledge beyond the classroom to succeed in dental school.


(sigh)......i'm done.
 
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Nobody needs 200 hours of shadowing. If you need 200 hours to decide whether or not you really want to be a dentist (which is the goal of shadowing), then I'd say either your commitment to dentistry is in question or you just take to long to make up your mind! :laugh:
I'd put it at about 40hr shadowing, 40hr volunteering for "solid" status (plus GPA/DAT numbers)."


40 hours wouldnt even meet the required hours for many schools.... so thats not exactly solid status
 
The following is a solid application:

30 DAT
4.0 GPA
5000 hours of ec
Graduate from Princeton
Working 20 hours a week while taking 18 credits/semester
Amazing LOR

I know I'm being sarcastic...its been a long day.

I'll just change that a little. ;)

20 DAT
3.5 GPA
200 hours of EC/shadowing
Will graduate from an university by matriculation.
Solid LOR
 
I'll just change that a little. ;)

20 DAT
3.5 GPA
200 hours of EC/shadowing
Will graduate from an university by matriculation.
Solid LOR

Research (publication=huge PLUS)
 
Research (publication=huge PLUS)

Only do it if you are genuinely interested. Be yourself show adcoms that you are more than stats. Involve yourself in extracurriculars that you can identify with.
 
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I would hope you are not serious. So let me get this straight, you are saying you could obverse/shadow a profession for lets say....20-40hrs, and make up your mind that you want to devote your life to it?!?. I DON'T THINK SO!

I guess people who have done extensive amounts of shadowing/helping/actually working with a dentist seeing this from a different light, but yes I am serious. I shadowed for about 25 hours and volunteered for about 80 (I know, more than my recommendation, but I did more because I was having fun), and I have been as certain about this career choice as anything in my life. Of course, everyone is different, etc. etc., but this seemed enough for the four schools to which I was accepted (only one, IU, of which asked anything about my shadowing/volunteering.

If you say "I want to be a dentist" why would any adcom doubt you just because you don't have x number of hours assisting or something? If you've begun shadowing you've probably already done some research into dentistry and thought that you might like to be a dentist, so what would you learn in week 2,3,4,5, or 6 that might make you change your mind? Of course you'll learn to recognize procedures and equipment, so does that mean we should decide upon dentistry based upon our ability to memorize names? You cannot legally drill, extract teeth, do root canals, etc., nor will you learn what it is like to be responsible for a small business without actually owning one. You can learn more about the human interactions involved in dentistry (dentist-patient-staff) over a longer period of time, but all dentist are different and what goes on at the dentist you help will only hold true for that dentist.

This all brings me back to my main point: adcoms do not require hundreds of hours of assisting experience and anything over the required minimum will probably make little difference in their decisions (though it could be enough to put you over the edge, who knows).

You can stop reading now, as below is more or less just a rambling mess.

As for the drive to learn about dentistry, that's why we're trying to get into dental school. Staying late to help dentists, etc. is grand if you have that kind of free time to work as an unpaid dental assistant, but with all the stress put upon being a well-round applicant and the every increasing competitiveness between pre-dents, is it really wise to spend all of your time in a dental office when what you learn will be so minute compared to what you will be required to learn in dental school?
Here's an analogy for you: I've watched and listened to my wife play the piano for hundreds of hours. I know all the physics of the piano, the names of the keys, even how one is made. Unfortunately, I suck at piano, and none of the above things makes me any more competitive for a scholarship to Julliard. If you're good enough at piano, though, you can learn to read music and memorize piano literature after you've been accepted. Think of our prereqs as learning basics of how to play a piano. If you're good enough at the basic sciences, you'll get in. You'll never know if you really want to be a dentist until you actually are one and get to feel what it's like. That doesn't mean you shouldn't shadow, though, just that you shouldn't spend too much time doing it.
There's another thing I hear a lot (and not just from pre-dents like us), this idea of devoting one's life to something. I will never devote my live to dentistry; that special devotion is reserved for my personal happiness and nothing else. I will devote dentistry to my life and happiness, not the other way around. I've already decided to devote my life to me and my happiness, nothing else, so all the other decisions come pretty easily.
 
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40 hours wouldnt even meet the required hours for many schools.... so thats not exactly solid status

Out of 7-8 schools I originally considered, only Ohio State had a specific requirement for documented shadowing hours, and that is still only 20. Why minimum of 20? Probably because that's all they think you need.

What schools actually require over 40 hours of documented (if it's not documented, it's not required) shadowing experience?
 
Out of 7-8 schools I originally considered, only Ohio State had a specific requirement for documented shadowing hours, and that is still only 20. Why minimum of 20? Probably because that's all they think you need.

What schools actually require over 40 hours of documented (if it's not documented, it's not required) shadowing experience?


http://more.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=527523
 

Wow! I stand corrected: adcoms do want to see a lot of observation hours. That's why I love this site, discussing ideas and learning new stuff everyday.

I was accepted to Indiana, though, and don't remember getting anything about my observation hours. Maybe it was because my volunteer hours were in a dental clinic and put me over the 40 required...
 
^ Congrats on your acceptance by the way! Your analogy makes perfect sense. My main point was that in this day there are huge numbers of applicants applying, more than ever before. Now, I have no experience dealing with IU, due to being a NY resident, but the few admissions offices I have spoken with are all giving the same vibe, "you have to show that you know what your getting into". Some schools have larger experience requirements than others, but why short yourself by just doing the minimum? Like I said before, there are so many people applying now, that someone out there is going to have similar stats, but with more experience. Even yourself, volunteering for 80hrs in a dental environment plus the 25 you did shadowing elsewhere, probably put you in a more competitive position than someone with the same stats but with only 20hrs of shadowing.
 
^ ...My main point was that in this day there are huge numbers of applicants applying, more than ever before...

True, true. Better safe than sorry (and it was a lot of fun). I never knew even one school required over 100 hours of observation time, let alone nearly 1/5th of them! It seems to get tougher and tougher every year, so good luck to everyone starting their applications for 2009!
 
I still can't find they need 100hours shadowing experience "on their website".:mad:

I know other numbers are correct, but.....

Seriously, still can't find it!!!

According to their website, there nothing about shadowing hours in their pre-requirement section!!

Can anybody make it clear?
 
Let's say Tom has 34hours shadowing experience.

Tooth school clearly states that they require 40hours..

Then Tom's application will not be reviewed at all or rejected!!

What if Tom have 26/28/25 and GPA 3.9/4.0/3.88?

Will Tom be considered? I believe he should not apply to the Tooth school of Dentistry.

Yes, some of dental schools specified the exact hours required. I believe anybody applying to that school must have at least the specified hours of shadowing exeperience.

On the other hand, for those schools not specified minimum hours, the more you have experience the more you will have chance to get in. But, not that much more significant than GPA & DAT.


Buttom line...

As per NYU School of Dental medicine...

I said I didn't see any minimum time requirement on their website.
However, I saw they set 100 hour as the minimum time that you should spend for dental shadowing to be considered as applicant from that forum for the first time.

I still can't find anything about time requirement on NYU's website.

Look their requirements for admission. Nothing about time requirement!!:mad:

Hence I am asking if it is just recommended instead of "required"
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. Quick question, how much do you write in the description part of the EC and dental experience?
 
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Nobody (should) need(s) 200 hours of shadowing. If you need 200 hours to decide whether or not you really want to be a dentist (which is the goal of shadowing), then I'd say either your commitment to dentistry is in question or you just take to long to make up your mind! :laugh:
Personally, I think holding down a regular job proves a lot more about character than any kind of volunteering (which proves what?), but popular wisdom holds that schools want to see examples of altruistic "compassion."
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


I would hope you are not serious. So let me get this straight, you are saying you could obverse/shadow a profession for lets say....20-40hrs, and make up your mind that you want to devote your life to it?. Since you are applying to Dental school, I would expect my applicants to know AS MUCH AS THEY CAN ABOUT THE FIELD, especially if you are planning to devote your money, education, and career to the field. Now, I hope that most people don't sit in the corner of the office like mutes and "observe" or should I say "shadow". If you are as enthusiastic as I am, you will LEARN procedures, get to know patients, stay after hours to help the dentist in the lab, and it may eventually turn into assisting.

(sigh)......i'm done.

The vast majority of college graduates from accountants to zoologists choose a field with zero hours of shadowing and most do not turn out dysfunctional. Unlike other disciplines, some health professional schools have a limited number of slots and, to avoid high attrition rate, it becomes imperative to ascertain that they understand what the field is all about. Shadowing is more about getting an idea of the atmosphere in a dental office and less about learning procedures, talking to patients and staying after hours to helping old Doc with the lab work. If time is unlimited, then by all means take advantage and observe as much as possible. However, in most cases the time would be better spent studying either to improve the GPA or the DAT. As for procedure, it is about understanding the process from diagnosis, to treatment plan, and especially to execution. Since dental procedure encompass a variety of fields, it would be advantageous to get a feel for all of them. Some may not like the sight of blood, screaming children, or dentition that has as yet to meet a toothbrush and may decide that dentistry is not for them.
 
Hi,

Im in the process of finishing up my application, but I am not sure if its good enough. I think I have solid EC activities (shadowing, volunteer work, TA, and some good outside of school hobbies), but somehow I am not feeling it.

So, my question is, what makes an application "solid." I am not sure if I am providing enough description for my EC activities. How much should I write in there? Maybe I am just being paranoid.

Any advice would be awesome!
You don't need a perfect application, you just need one that's good enough to get you in. Put your best face forward. Try to impess them with your positives. Explain any negatives and you'll get in somewhere.
 
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Nobody needs 200 hours of shadowing. If you need 200 hours to decide whether or not you really want to be a dentist (which is the goal of shadowing), then I'd say either your commitment to dentistry is in question or you just take to long to make up your mind! :laugh:
I'd put it at about 40hr shadowing, 40hr volunteering for "solid" status (plus GPA/DAT numbers). Personally, I think holding down a regular job proves a lot more about character than any kind of volunteering (which proves what?), but popular wisdom holds that schools want to see examples of altruistic "compassion."


Agree with you 150%... I'm sure there are a fair amount of applicants that "have it all" (i.e. good GPA, DAT, EC involvement, research, and tons of shadowing hours), but I think they are the exception rather than the norm. I hate to say this, but I almost feel like people who are adamant about needing hundreds of shadowing hours in order to determine that dentistry is the "right" career path are doing so because they're lacking in other areas of their application. I think 40 total shadowing hours (of varied observation in different dental offices/specialties) is more than enough - like we've all been told multiple times during our lives... QUALITY over quantity. I mean seriously... after a certain number of hours (40-50 IMO), you start to see the same things over and over again. Yes, every case/patient is unique, but you're not observing so that you can write a novel about the life of dentist - if you can't make up your mind about whether or not dentistry is "the career" for you after 40 hours of shadowing, you're either a) shadowing a horrible dentist, or b) an extremely indecisive person.

According to the list that doc toothache posted, most of the nation's "top" programs (i.e. Harvard, UCLA, Columbia, Penn, etc. - please don't start an argument about what you think the "top" schools are... I'm referencing these schools solely based on applicant stats... again, posted by doc toothache) don't have required hours. I think that's the case for a reason...
 
Personally, I think holding down a regular job proves a lot more about character than any kind of volunteering (which proves what?), but popular wisdom holds that schools want to see examples of altruistic "compassion."

It's pretty cut and clear who volunteers because they are committed to a cause, and those that volunteer to bulk up their resume. Volunteering isn't meant to prove anything but personal commitment to tertiary causes that benefit others more than yourself. That said, some people find that their time is worthwhile in a cause, while some find it worthless. I put down nature conservation for bird nesting sites and native american burial grounds under volunteering, and I'm sure many won't give a crap about it. From spending a significant portion of my time wrecking trails through foot traffic, I found this worthwhile. Your volunteering might have been meaningless (from the sound of it, you did it solely to cover your bases), but you shouldn't debase volunteering as a whole.

Personally, commitment to volunteering is much, much harder in my mind than holding a job. I worked in a very competitive and stressful workplace- but the equalizer was excellent financial compensation. The more efficient volunteering organizations also only recruit and keep dedicated members - who are largely not compensated, but keep coming back week after week.
 
Well, it seems in this day and age, applicants as well as schools are focusing more on didactics rather than real-world-application. Yeah, some people are good at school.......thats about it, I would never want them touching a dental instrument. Just b/c you get a near perfect DAT doesn't mean you are cut out for dentistry. When the OP was asking for advice on a SOLID application, well..........a SOLID application would have high academics and the experience to back it up. I think if you take two applicants with similar academic stats, the one who should get the seat in the class is the one with the most dental experience, but hey, thats just me.
 
... Your volunteering might have been meaningless (from the sound of it, you did it solely to cover your bases), but you shouldn't debase volunteering as a whole...

It's interesting you mention that, because that is exactly why I did volunteering, initially, to cover my bases. But then I found that it was a lot of fun; I had a great time working with the dentists and assistants, chatting with the patients, and learning some stuff about dental procedures and working in a community dental clinic. I didn't even think of it as volunteering.

What I don't like about volunteering is when it is defined as doing something where you give more than you receive (i.e. are not somehow compensated for your work). Sounds selfish, but I've never done this kind of volunteering and never will. Actually, I don't think many people do. I received experience and knowledge (almost like an apprenticeship), as well as good fun and friends for my work. I saw this as fair pay, and I'm sure many people keep coming back to volunteer work for similar reasons.

So, I guess I have a bone to pick with volunteering as a purely altruistic gesture, not with volunteering as it is usually pursued.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. Quick question, how much do you write in the description part of the EC and dental experience?

Sorry, nobody answered your question!:laugh: Probably put in as much as you can; the more the merrier.
 
What I don't like about volunteering is when it is defined as doing something where you give more than you receive (i.e. are not somehow compensated for your work). Sounds selfish, but I've never done this kind of volunteering and never will. Actually, I don't think many people do. I received experience and knowledge (almost like an apprenticeship), as well as good fun and friends for my work. I saw this as fair pay, and I'm sure many people keep coming back to volunteer work for similar reasons.

So, I guess I have a bone to pick with volunteering as a purely altruistic gesture, not with volunteering as it is usually pursued.

What you described wasn't selfish. People have other responsibilities, dental school graduates especially (family, debt, etc) to resolve before they can consider extensive volunteering. That's part of the reason why I disagreed with your statement that holding a job was much harder than volunteering. For one to be beneficial to others, they have to have everything at home in order. Otherwise, they're risking negligence to the people they have the responsibility of caring for first at home. It requires a fair amount of personal discipline and responsibility to be able to volunteer, and even more to maintain it.

On the other front, I don't see a the idea of a volunteer benefiting and the spirit of altruism as being mutually exclusive. In the end, volunteers are making a sacrifice of energy and time that they could spend elsewhere. If volunteers feel that they had feel good, have fun, learned, and want to come back, then the volunteering organizers did a fantastic job. It's supposed to be rewarding in some fashion. I don't feel that diminishes from their initial and sustained good intention, which is what altruism is about.
 
What you described wasn't selfish. People have other responsibilities, dental school graduates especially (family, debt, etc) to resolve before they can consider extensive volunteering. That's part of the reason why I disagreed with your statement that holding a job was much harder than volunteering...

Good point, I see what you mean now.

On the other front, I don't see a the idea of a volunteer benefiting and the spirit of altruism as being mutually exclusive. In the end, volunteers are making a sacrifice of energy and time that they could spend elsewhere. If volunteers feel that they had feel good, have fun, learned, and want to come back, then the volunteering organizers did a fantastic job. It's supposed to be rewarding in some fashion. I don't feel that diminishes from their initial and sustained good intention, which is what altruism is about.

I've always felt that altruism=selflessness, so pure altruism would equal complete selflessness. This is just semantics, though, and I know the word "altruism" means different things to different people.
I would never feel that rewards would diminish the good one does through volunteering; on the contrary, I think self-concerned motives actually enhance the good intentions by reaffirming one's focus on one's own life and the act of living in general.

I like this discussion, by the way.
 
I'm going to steer way clear of a philosophical debate of altruism - I don't think you'd mind that ;).

Just wanted to offer a different vantage point for volunteering

But just a last note to pre dents out there - when you are being interviewed about volunteering for indigent populations after graduating from D-school (particularly in a group where the question is tossed out round robin style), answer the question realistically. Some of the people I interviewed with were pulling out the drama skills, and it was just lofty BS.
 
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