How to impress as a Medical Student?

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Pudortu

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To those of us wanting to match into EM and are doing audition rotations this fall, what advice would you residents and attendings have for us? I keep hearing the generic "work hard" but I suppose I'm looking for something more specific. Any help you guys can spare would go a long way. Thanks guys and congrats to the new interns.
 
Be on time.
Be on time.
Be on time.
When you have your patients, have them. Know them. You're not expected to know everything, but always, always, always, always have a plan. Anyone can do an H&P. It's the last part of SOAP, though - the Plan. Be concise - I need to know positives, and pertinent negatives. I should know in the first 10 seconds why the patient is there. Don't do the IM thing of the entire history and then "with ankle pain after stumbling". It's more of "54 y/o male with ankle pain after stumbling. Able to ambulate. Insulin dependent diabetic. Poorly compliant. Neurovascular intact. Xray is indicated due to the Ottawa ankle rule. I also have concern for a Charcot joint." If it's a diabetic, find out the fingerstick and have that when you tell the resident or attending.

Always be doing something. You'll often find IM residents just sitting there, but don't be like them. You want to be EM. If your patient is waiting for something, see if that is a good time to get another patient. You, as a student, shouldn't have so many sick patients that you are bogged down. You shouldn't have more than 3 patients total at any one time, because you don't have the basics down. And, as a student, if you get wrapped up in a complex patient, you probably will get shunted to the side, because, if they're that sick, they need more than a student; however, be at the person in charge's elbow. Have a pair of gloves with you all the time. If you have the gloves, you put them on, and you're right in there with your hands in the ****. If you don't, or have to go fumbling, you'll be, again, shunted off to the side. If you're "playing it cool" and laying low, you won't get your hands on any lacs, and definitely no one will be letting you touch the laryngoscope.

Act like you want to be there, and BE THERE, in mind and person, and don't think anything is beneath you. In academic hospitals, often, nurses have quite a chip on their shoulders, and will either ignore you, or actively try to submarine you. This also includes some 24 year old with an associate's degree treating you like you're a child, despite your having almost 400% more education and being older. Let that roll off you like water off a duck's back.

Put your ego away. You will be wrong, but don't make it an issue. Residents run the gamut - a few will be teaching superstars, a few will look like that, but will undercut you, a few will be as interesting as warm spit, and a few will actively hate you, just for being a student, because they hate their lives. I had all these as colleagues in residency. Ask up front, each shift, to whomever will be the person to whom you report, if you should ask them if it's all right to take another patient, or do they want you to show initiative and take it yourself. In this manner, some attendings (like I would) might throw you a "good" case, instead of a lemon that's next on the pile. If I think you're a dope, or you're abusing the intern (even if you ARE smarter than them, don't show it), I'll make you regret that behavior, and it will be all above board and kosher.

You'll probably have a project or test. Don't leave it until the end. Parcel it out bit by bit. Some people are stars in the department and screw the test. Others have nearly zero clinical skill, but their written stuff is aces. Do both.
 
Great Advice... I would add instead of 'being on time'; be there 10 minutes early and finish up your patients within reason and do not sign stupid stuff out that you can finish in another 10-20 minutes.

If you saw the ankle above and are waiting on an Xray...even though its time for you to go, wait on the Xray. If you just saw a more sick patient that has a bunch of labs pending, sign that out...

Don't spend too much time in the department when its not your shift. There is a fine line in being very interested and a super star, and being a weirdo that thinks they need to be in the ED during their entire month rotation. Don't be that guy...

Go to the resident lectures and ask a resident/attending/coordinator when the next Journal Club is and if you may come along.

Above all, be yourself, don't make jokes that might offend someone. Treat the nurses and techs the same as you are treating your attending Remember that you are technically being interviewed at all times while in the department and sometimes nurses/secretaries have much more influence than you may think....

If the residents invite you out after a shift, or out somewhere on some other night... Do your best to go. Remember to be mature, and not get too comfortable.. you are still being interviewed at all times....
 
Thanks for the awesome advice guys.

I always wondered how many patients I should try to carry at once (3 according to Apollyon) and how / when to check out (EM-rebuilder). I really appreciate that. Anything else anyone else has that's specific would be awesome.
 
Thanks for the awesome advice guys.

I always wondered how many patients I should try to carry at once (3 according to Apollyon) and how / when to check out (EM-rebuilder). I really appreciate that. Anything else anyone else has that's specific would be awesome.

There is not a finite number, but I think not more than 3 is a great way to go about it.

The balance is that you DONT want so many that you have no clue whats going on with your patients and end needing the attending or a resident to come bail you out, yet not too little that you are posting on SDN/facebook and searching eBay all day long....

In my 4 years as a resident, I have seen it occur both ways and find that both are equally annoying... in all honesty, its probably more annoying when a student thinks hes a bada** and tries to get 3-4 patients, all needing full workups and admissions, and totally drowning, then me having to go try to fix all his screwups....

At the end of the day, we expect residents to be 'a little stressed' at times due to patient loads. And naturally when the crap is hitting the fan, the attending may be a bit stressed as well. There is NO need for the medical student to be working at their full capacity and becoming stressed over their patient load...
 
thanks for all the great advice on this thread. Something I really struggle with, as a student, the patient w/ vague, probably not appropriate for the ED, complaints. You know, the middle aged lady who "hurts all over" or has vague complaints of fatigue and general unease, or the 25 year old healthy patient w/ 20 visits this year and a pan-positive ROS, but no real pathology.

How do you guys want us, as students, to deal with these patients? Would you like to hear an extensive ddx w/ a plan for 50 labs, pan-scan and eeg. Or is sufficient to say, "yeah, I don't know what's going on. She seems stable w/ a non-focal exam, why don't we get a chem panel, give her pain control and see how she does."
 
If your patient is waiting for something, see if that is a good time to get another patient. You, as a student, shouldn't have so many sick patients that you are bogged down. You shouldn't have more than 3 patients total at any one time, because you don't have the basics down. And, as a student, if you get wrapped up in a complex patient, you probably will get shunted to the side, because, if they're that sick, they need more than a student; however, be at the person in charge's elbow. Have a pair of gloves with you all the time. If you have the gloves, you put them on, and you're right in there with your hands in the ****.

Thanks Apollyon. This is helpful. Today I found myself in one of those situations where my patient was super sick (UGI bleed requiring intubation, central line, et cetera after sitting in the ED for awhile totally hemodynamically stable with two 16G's just in case and with labs cooking). I didn't end up taking another patient once mine tanked with about an hour and a half to go in my shift. I got to put in my first central line which was awesome, but felt kind of useless at the end of my shift when we were still just waiting for ICU admission and I had no one else on the board while the residents were running around with multiple patients. I guess balance will come in time? I just want my attendings to realize I'm trying my best to work really hard while not being that med student who chronically stays late/doesn't know what's going on with his/her patients.
 
Thanks Apollyon. This is helpful. Today I found myself in one of those situations where my patient was super sick (UGI bleed requiring intubation, central line, et cetera after sitting in the ED for awhile totally hemodynamically stable with two 16G's just in case and with labs cooking). I didn't end up taking another patient once mine tanked with about an hour and a half to go in my shift. I got to put in my first central line which was awesome, but felt kind of useless at the end of my shift when we were still just waiting for ICU admission and I had no one else on the board while the residents were running around with multiple patients. I guess balance will come in time? I just want my attendings to realize I'm trying my best to work really hard while not being that med student who chronically stays late/doesn't know what's going on with his/her patients.

As long as you realize that, and are not sitting on your can, you're in good shape. One thing you can do is to ask, and mean it, if there's anything you can do to help out the residents. Do NOT ask that with the leading impression that you want them to say "no". If you get a real sickie, stick to them like glue. And, again, know everything about them. When the MICU resident comes down, you look like you are smart, and that impresses the heck out of the residents (especially the seniors) and the attendings.

That lag time when there's not enough time to see someone new, but also too much time to not have a patient, is difficult. Just don't be twiddling thumbs.

thanks for all the great advice on this thread. Something I really struggle with, as a student, the patient w/ vague, probably not appropriate for the ED, complaints. You know, the middle aged lady who "hurts all over" or has vague complaints of fatigue and general unease, or the 25 year old healthy patient w/ 20 visits this year and a pan-positive ROS, but no real pathology.

How do you guys want us, as students, to deal with these patients? Would you like to hear an extensive ddx w/ a plan for 50 labs, pan-scan and eeg. Or is sufficient to say, "yeah, I don't know what's going on. She seems stable w/ a non-focal exam, why don't we get a chem panel, give her pain control and see how she does."

Yes and no. Clinical pearl - check the chemistries, and always check a magnesium (even if not a renal player - if kidney failure, also check a phosphorous). Once you catch 2 or 3 or 4 that are low, you look like a stud. No one checks mag. I did that on my oral boards, and they looked at me like I was speaking another language. As for the pain meds, "we can't give you anything yet for pain, because we don't know what is going on, and we don't want to actually make you worse". Now, some attendings in academia are candy men, and they'll ding you for not giving the patient 2mg of Dilaudid, but that won't count against your evaluation. If someone has a low sodium or potassium or mag, you can then grab onto that and engage the patient. "Your sodium is a bit low, so we are giving you this fluid in this IV line, and that will make you feel better. Your magnesium was also low, and magnesium in the body is like oil in the engine - in your body, everything works better when the magnesium is fixed". (Mag is 2g IV.)

If the kidneys are intact, you can tell the patient that. "Your chemistries are all normal, and your kidneys are functioning well. I don't know what it is, but I am rather confident as to what it is not, and that is it is not anything bad. We can give you something for pain now." Then, order 30mg Toradol. That's when the drug seeker comes out, and you can pass that up the chain. "Oh, you are allergic to Toradol? What happens when you get that?" Many people will feel better with Regland/Compazine and Benadryl. And you would not be lying if you said that those might help their pain.

You know the way how they say you spend the first two years of surgery residency learning how to operate, then spend the next 3 years learning when NOT to operate? That's also an idea in EM. You become a bit of a used-car salesman, although you're not lying or being greasy. You're just selling it.
 
Yes and no. Clinical pearl - check the chemistries, and always check a magnesium (even if not a renal player - if kidney failure, also check a phosphorous). Once you catch 2 or 3 or 4 that are low, you look like a stud. No one checks mag. I did that on my oral boards, and they looked at me like I was speaking another language. As for the pain meds, "we can't give you anything yet for pain, because we don't know what is going on, and we don't want to actually make you worse". Now, some attendings in academia are candy men, and they'll ding you for not giving the patient 2mg of Dilaudid, but that won't count against your evaluation. If someone has a low sodium or potassium or mag, you can then grab onto that and engage the patient. "Your sodium is a bit low, so we are giving you this fluid in this IV line, and that will make you feel better. Your magnesium was also low, and magnesium in the body is like oil in the engine - in your body, everything works better when the magnesium is fixed". (Mag is 2g IV.)

If the kidneys are intact, you can tell the patient that. "Your chemistries are all normal, and your kidneys are functioning well. I don't know what it is, but I am rather confident as to what it is not, and that is it is not anything bad. We can give you something for pain now." Then, order 30mg Toradol. That's when the drug seeker comes out, and you can pass that up the chain. "Oh, you are allergic to Toradol? What happens when you get that?" Many people will feel better with Regland/Compazine and Benadryl. And you would not be lying if you said that those might help their pain.

You know the way how they say you spend the first two years of surgery residency learning how to operate, then spend the next 3 years learning when NOT to operate? That's also an idea in EM. You become a bit of a used-car salesman, although you're not lying or being greasy. You're just selling it.


THIS. thank you! i always seem to struggle with what to do with the vague/chronic pain patient and these are exactly the types of answers i've been looking for.
 
Here's a question that kind of lingers in the back of my head when I'm seeing patients. How long should it take for me to do a H&P on a patient in the ED? I usually take about 10 minutes but feel like I should be seeing them much much faster? When I went with a intern once, there was like 5 questions and something I wouldn't even call a physical. I'm not trying to badmouth that resident in any way, but should I just stick with my slow medical student approach or try to go as fast as I can? Thanks again guys
 
Here's a question that kind of lingers in the back of my head when I'm seeing patients. How long should it take for me to do a H&P on a patient in the ED? I usually take about 10 minutes but feel like I should be seeing them much much faster? When I went with a intern once, there was like 5 questions and something I wouldn't even call a physical. I'm not trying to badmouth that resident in any way, but should I just stick with my slow medical student approach or try to go as fast as I can? Thanks again guys

While you should try to remain focused, I can't imagine 5 questions being sufficient. Especially since it pays to ask certain things in more than one way. For example, I've had a similar conversation more than once with chest pain pts:

"Do you use drugs?"
"No."
"Never?"
"No."
"Not even once?"
"Well... maybe a little cocaine. But I stopped 10 years ago."
"When was the last time you used cocaine?"
"Oh, I had some this morning just before I got the chest pain."

10 minutes is pretty efficient for a decent history and physical at this stage. As a med student, your job is not to move the rack, but to learn and not screw up too badly. At best, aim to see about 1 person per hour. Any more and you are either cutting corners or working in urgent care.
 
You want a simple but specific tip?

My tip, know your patient's final disposition - that is key. If you know the disposition nearly as well as the resident, then you're gold.

Know if the patient needs to be admitted and work towards it, know if the patient will likely be discharged and work towards it.

Since I'm the senior on any and all shifts - I hate it when the med student knows everything about the patient but the disposition is missing. The patient lingers on the board without an admit order or the patient remains in the hallway pending discharge.

Know the disposition and get on it.

Any student who is quick to the end point is A+ to me.
 
Here's a question that kind of lingers in the back of my head when I'm seeing patients. How long should it take for me to do a H&P on a patient in the ED? I usually take about 10 minutes but feel like I should be seeing them much much faster? When I went with a intern once, there was like 5 questions and something I wouldn't even call a physical. I'm not trying to badmouth that resident in any way, but should I just stick with my slow medical student approach or try to go as fast as I can? Thanks again guys

The guy's an intern... of course he lacks finesse. 5 questions w/o a physical is absolute non-sense. In my experience, an intern usually is a bit slow in H/P. The 2nd year usually is a bit faster but becomes a bit more ballsy with the H/P and usually is missing key bits of information. The 3rd year begins to realize that there are bits of info that are key and the H/P become a bit more clean and thorough despite not a lot more time spent in the H/P.

The 4th year usually is a bit more suave with the whole H/P - but still missing some points if crap hits the fan and the room needs to move.
 
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