How to med schools catch liars?

[SlinkyDink]

So, after reading through the thread about the guy who lied about his volunteer hours and got called on it, it got me think about how schools go about catching lies in applications. I know that they do background checks to look for unreported criminal charges, and they can check references if an EC sounds fishy, but what about academics? Do schools do some kind of academic audit to find undisclosed classes or enrollments? In general, how easy (or hard) is it for liars to get away with it? Do you guys think this is a rare occurrence, or fairly common?

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[spenguin]

You have to submit official transcripts to AACOMAS.

That being said I'm not sure how they go about making sure you turnered in transcripts for every school you enrolled in.

Your question comes across as mighty sketchy

If they find out you lied about something like that it would be an automatic dismissal

 

[deleted480308]

So, after reading through the thread about the guy who lied about his volunteer hours and got called on it, it got me think about how schools go about catching lies in applications. I know that they do background checks to look for unreported criminal charges, and they can check references if an EC sounds fishy, but what about academics? Do schools do some kind of academic audit to find undisclosed classes or enrollments? In general, how easy (or hard) is it for liars to get away with it? Do you guys think this is a rare occurrence, or fairly common?

yes, the federal loan system keeps track and knows eveywhere you enrolled......if you are dumb enough to lie about something, omitting enrollments is maybe the easiest way to get caught

 

[SlinkyDink]

You have to submit official transcripts to AACOMAS.

That being said I'm not sure how they go about making sure you turnered in transcripts for every school you enrolled in.

Your question comes across as mighty sketchy

If they find out you lied about something like that it would be an automatic dismissal

This isn't a loaded question, promise! When I was filling out my application it never even occurred to me to do something like fudge hours or falsify an EC, and I was a little surprised reading through that other thread at how common people seem to think it is to do so. So, if they're right and lying is that common, how often do people get away with it?

 

[OrdinaryDO]

If we knew how often people got away with it then they wouldn't have gotten away with it! haha. You know, you have a choice...you can take that risk of lieing and getting caught, but if you get caught the consequences can go far beyond just the one medical school that may have caught you. You can quite possible be banned from applying to any medical schools again. You have to understand that the risks never outweigh the benefits in this situation.

 

[SlinkyDink]

If we knew how often people got away with it then they wouldn't have gotten away with it! haha. You know, you have a choice...you can take that risk of lieing and getting caught, but if you get caught the consequences can go far beyond just the one medical school that may have caught you. You can quite possible be banned from applying to any medical schools again. You have to understand that the risks never outweigh the benefits in this situation.

For sure, lying is incredibly risky and you have EVERYTHING to lose by doing it. I work overnights, so lately I've had a lot of down time to lurk SDN and ponder esoteric aspects of medical school admissions. A few weeks ago there was an article about a guy who got caught cheating on the MCAT in Canada, and he was only caught because he tricked other people into giving him answers instead of paying someone to be in on the plan. Considering the extreme security measures in place for MCAT testing, it seems crazy that someone found a way to get around them. Then I started thinking about the applications themselves and wondering why they don't seem to have the same degree of security and cross-checking (since people seem to think that fudging data is somewhat common). Or do they, and schools just don't publicize all their methods to keep applicants from circumventing them? Am I thinking about this too hard? I have this entire concept swirling around my head of med school classes being filled with the people who were smart enough to get past the checks, but maybe I just need to go to bed.

 

[echo87]

yes, the federal loan system keeps track and knows eveywhere you enrolled......if you are dumb enough to lie about something, omitting enrollments is maybe the easiest way to get caught

I think there's a database of enrollments outside of the loan system, consequently even if you never took loans your enrollment info is available.

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

For schooling and academics, yes there is an official system that they use (the name is slipping my mind) that they verify transcripts against. It goes by SSN which is required wherever you go for school if you're a US citizen (not sure about internationals if they have student-visas or whatnot). As for the other stuff, it's sorta obvious to tell when somebody's lying when they're talking to you about something. If somebody says they've done 500 hours of scribing but in reality only did 100/200, their knowledge base and their capability of talking/elaborate on what they see will be significantly limited. I know for a fact when I was an early scribe I was sort of unable to really say anything about the healthcare system/medicine ect, but now with >2000 hours, I am pretty confident in what I say and it's expressed through the way I talk/elaborate on it.

Also, remember, interviews are usually 30-45 mins (maybe 1 hour max). You're gonna be asked the basics, why DO/MD, why this school, why medicine, what makes you think you're ready for med school ect. That itself if it's a conversation takes a good chunk of time. Couple that with your questions at the end and that gives them probably 5-10 minutes for other questions on your app (assuming it's with them). For them to then elaborate on your application I think does take some time. If there's an overly glaring discrepancy then they might ask you. It also depends on the activity. For instance, for my senior year, I had >100 hours of volunteering, while working 25-30 hours/wk in the ER, while doing research/internship and doing well in school. That's a LOT. But those activities are all unbelievably easily verifiable (my internship and research was on my transcript because it was academic credit, 2 of my LOR's came from physicians I worked with who both wrote about how much I work and balance my life). The 100 hours volunteering are recorded on a database through my fraternity, and my one trip volunteering in NOLA is easily verifiable by making a call to my contact I listed (the chaplain of my school). If the activities are easily verifiable, then I don't think in their minds it'll be cause for suspicion. But if you give a sketchy answer, then beware.

 

[Goro]

Another thing we do is ask people about stuff in their app. For example, if you were merely cleaning glassware in someone's lab, but try to palm this off as 'research experience", a common question is "So tell me about your research".

Osteopathy being a rather small community, one of my DO colleagues caught someone dead to rights about a shadowing experience ( the interviewee said that he shadowed Dr X, but my colleague knew Dr X and knew that X was NOT in this particular city). You could see the guy trying to literally disappear into his chair!

Needless to say, he was an outright reject.

 

[arc5005]

Another thing we do is ask people about stuff in their app. For example, if you were merely cleaning glassware in someone's lab, but try to palm this off as 'research experience", a common question is "So tell me about your research".

Osteopathy being a rather small community, one of my DO colleagues caught someone dead to rights about a shadowing experience ( the interviewee said that he shadowed Dr X, but my colleague knew Dr X and knew that X was NOT in this particular city). You could see the guy trying to literally disappear into his chair!

Needless to say, he was an outright reject.

It's good to hear that cheaters get rejected. I know, I'm going to be applying with no padding to my ECs, and it makes me worried that I won't have an adequate amount, but at least it's honest. Still having a really hard time finding shadowing opportunities though 🙁

 

[user3]

If they find out you lied about something like that it would be an automatic dismissal

yes and no. In order to warrant a dismissal, I imagine that false info in an app would likely need to be considered "willful and substantial".

 

[OrdinaryDO]

yes and no. In order to warrant a dismissal, I imagine that false info in an app would likely need to be considered "willful and substantial".

I think this topic was only directed towards those who were willingly try to persuade schools by intentionally lying, but you do check numerous boxes on the AACOMAS and secondaries saying "Yes I have reviewed blah blah blah and to the best of my knowledge all of the information is correct." I think it would be hard to argue this point, but eh..stay true and it won't ever happen!

 

[FutureDO08]

It's good to hear that cheaters get rejected. I know, I'm going to be applying with no padding to my ECs, and it makes me worried that I won't have an adequate amount, but at least it's honest. Still having a really hard time finding shadowing opportunities though 🙁

I pulled up google maps, typed my zip code and D.O. i called about 40 physicians until one said yes. I shadowed a cardiologist 3 weeks before my interviews but had well over 30-40 hours for my interview. Got to talk about patient care and cath lab, CT scans, and my experience taking BP. I was able to push the fact that I was still working on my app even after applying to the program. I got an acceptance and a couple more interviews so far. Don't give up and keep calling all the docs until someone is willing.

 

[arc5005]

I pulled up google maps, typed my zip code and D.O. i called about 40 physicians until one said yes. I shadowed a cardiologist 3 weeks before my interviews but had well over 30-40 hours for my interview. Got to talk about patient care and cath lab, CT scans, and my experience taking BP. I was able to push the fact that I was still working on my app even after applying to the program. I got an acceptance and a couple more interviews so far. Don't give up and keep calling all the docs until someone is willing.

Did you have any other shadowing hours other than that??

 

[ortnakas]

yes and no. In order to warrant a dismissal, I imagine that false info in an app would likely need to be considered "willful and substantial".

Probably true for a dismissal if they found out about an application falsehood after matriculation, but not at all if the poster meant an outright rejection.

I've heard of acceptances being withdrawn for application lies, too.

 

[FutureDO08]

Did you have any other shadowing hours other than that??

I have lots of other experiences that helped (on top of working 50hr work weeks) but those were my shadowing hours, I have a lot more now. Main thing is show constant progress. Even if you've already done your secondary, keep going, they don't want you to "go through the motions", they want you to be doing as much as you can

 

[costales]

For schooling and academics, yes there is an official system that they use (the name is slipping my mind) that they verify transcripts against.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/about/clearinghouse_facts.php

A nationwide coverage of enrollment and degree records — encompassing nearly 237 million student records.
More than 3,600 colleges and universities, enrolling 98% of all students in public and private U.S. institutions, participate in the Clearinghouse.
All guarantors and most major student loan lenders and servicers participate in the Clearinghouse.
The Clearinghouse performs more than 700 million electronic student record verifications annually.​