How well could you do on the mcat if money was no object

[Ad2b]

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I took Kaplan. Paid for extension. Think it helped me focus. Gave me tidbits to help. Gave me a place to ask questions on anything I was unsure of (MCAT, application, PS, study plans, etc). I will pay for it again.

BUT the #1 thing that everyone seems to echo is this: Amount of time studying + raw intelligence + pre-req coursework = score

No one thing is going to get you the highest scores.

 

[Gandyy]

Not my point lol. My point is that at some point, for some applicants, it becomes a wiser decision to score "good enough" on the MCAT (sacrifice a few points) to make sure they have money to live on/aren't neglecting other important obligations. To assume that everyone has an equal chance to score to their highest capability on the MCAT is ignorant, at best.

True that will never happen, but its the same thing in life. Many people in life do not get an equal chance to reach their full potential either. Its just the name of the crazy game that is life.

 

[Affiche]

True that will never happen, but its the same thing in life. Many people in life do not get an equal chance to reach their full potential either. Its just the name of the crazy game that is life.

I agree, which is why I don't advocate for eliminating the MCAT or gpa as a factor in admissions. It is what it is.

 

[Gandyy]

I agree, which is why I don't advocate for eliminating the MCAT or gpa as a factor in admissions. It is what it is.

Yea as much as I hate the MCAT, you gotta have a standardized academic measure.

But I hate the MCAT.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

So glad it's done

 

[mehc012]

It's certainly a hindrance. Taking time off wasn't an option for me at all, nor was cutting back hours at work.

And yet you did quite well on the exam! I was in the same boat...prepped while working 40-60hrs at 2 jobs...and I also did very well on the exam. I understand that you want to show another perspective, but I never denied that it sucked to work while studying, but only that you could still score well. That's what an equalizer is...an opportunity.

Prepping super early helps, but it's not equivalent to prepping full-time in the few months before. In my experience, there was so much material on the new MCAT that studying for 10-15 hours each week 9 months in advance wasn't super helpful, because by the time I got around to taking full-length tests I would forget a lot of the material I reviewed months prior.

You have to change tactics when you change the timeline I understand that different people have different schedules and lives, but there are also a lot of approaches that can address them.

 

[jd989898]

Was too lazy to read the thread, but here's my opinion: Money is very rarely the limiting factor in anyone's situation once they get close to the MCAT. Money likely plays a much more important role throughout one's entire life leading up to the MCAT (better schools, better education, better background, creative thinking fostered, etc.) leads to better overall preparedness. The limiting factors once one actually begins preparing are really motivation and natural intelligence.

 

[mehc012]

Was too lazy to read the thread, but here's my opinion: Money is very rarely the limiting factor in anyone's situation once they get close to the MCAT. Money likely plays a much more important role throughout one's entire life leading up to the MCAT (better schools, better education, better background, creative thinking fostered, etc.) leads to better overall preparedness. The limiting factors once one actually begins preparing are really motivation and natural intelligence.

I would actually agree with this bit more than anything...growing up disadvantaged seems like a far bigger detriment to the eventual MCAT score than being broke while studying for it.

 

[Affiche]

@mehc012 I agree that you can definitely score well. I just think that how well you can score can often be limited by external factors.

Was too lazy to read the thread, but here's my opinion: Money is very rarely the limiting factor in anyone's situation once they get close to the MCAT. Money likely plays a much more important role throughout one's entire life leading up to the MCAT (better schools, better education, better background, creative thinking fostered, etc.) leads to better overall preparedness. The limiting factors once one actually begins preparing are really motivation and natural intelligence.

This I actually disagree with haha. Money definitely plays a role throughout one's life, but it also plays a role when it comes down to the MCAT. Again, money affects your situation beyond prep materials. The limiting factors are certainly not limited to motivation and natural intelligence. That's actually a bit offensive, imho.

 

[mehc012]

@mehc012 I agree that you can definitely score well. I just think that how well you can score can often be limited by external factors.

To an extent that matters, though? If I drop from a 34 to a 32, or a 29 to a 27, are my chances really that different?

I'm basing the 2 point drop on the difference I saw in my scores between FLs before and after I completed the last quarter of my preparation, btw...would you say that circumstances make more than a 25% prep difference?

 

[Ad2b]

Being broke while studying for the MCAT.

Hm. You mean like no money for food is going to be a non-factor in how well you can prepare?

From personal experience, I can tell you 1) I'm pretty darn smart 2) I work pretty darn hard at school and my grades show it 3) my grades also suffer if I am broke... the correlation from worrying about rent/food/running water >>>>>>> than any test I will ever take.

 

[Ad2b]

@mehc012 - I would say the difference between that 29 and 27 are much larger than the the 34 to 32.

The 29 says, "almost 30" whereas the 27 says almost fail. The 34/32 is non-sequitor.

 

[mehc012]

@mehc012 - I would say the difference between that 29 and 27 are much larger than the the 34 to 32.

The 29 says, "almost 30" whereas the 27 says almost fail. The 34/32 is non-sequitor.

OK, fine...though since the number of questions/point decreases as you go up, I'd imagine there'd be smaller drops at the lower scores. But the 34-32 isn't a nonsequitor, it's my point: for the most part, one or two points isn't going to change whether or not you get into medical school, unless you were borderline anyway.

 

[jd989898]

Just to clarify, when I was referring to money issues during MCAT prep I moreso meant 'being given a magic $5000 gift card to spend on test prep', Not 'being able to afford rent, food, internet etc.'

 

[Affiche]

@Ad2b yes, exactly! I was so stressed about money in college that I suffered from anxiety, insomnia, and even broke out shingles. I just wanted my grades to be "good enough".

OK, fine...though since the number of questions/point decreases as you go up, I'd imagine there'd be smaller drops at the lower scores. But the 34-32 isn't a nonsequitor, it's my point: for the most part, one or two points isn't going to change whether or not you get into medical school, unless you were borderline anyway.

Meh, I don't think money was enough of a hindrance for me personally to keep me out of medical school, but I think it kept me from scoring the best that I could, which limits which medical schools I may get into. Just because I was able to score well enough to get into medical school though doesn't meant that money is not an insurmountable barrier for everyone. I think for many people SES does keep them out of medical school (or at the very least, limit which schools they get accepted to).

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Just to clarify, when I was referring to money issues during MCAT prep I moreso meant 'being given a magic $5000 gift card to spend on test prep', Not 'being able to afford rent, food, internet etc.'

Beyond good prep books, no, I don't think another 5000 would improve your score

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Yea as much as I hate the MCAT, you gotta have a standardized academic measure.

But I hate the MCAT.

Just take the SAT scores. Done.

 

[mehc012]

Just take the SAT scores. Done.

Please, the SAT is a joke.

 

[Mad Jack]

Not my point lol. My point is that at some point, for some applicants, it becomes a wiser decision to score "good enough" on the MCAT (sacrifice a few points) to make sure they have money to live on/aren't neglecting other important obligations. To assume that everyone has an equal chance to score to their highest capability on the MCAT is ignorant, at best.

Uh, I kept my **** together just fine. It's possible, people just need to be willing to put in the hard work. Those couple of points can make a big difference, particularly if you're going from 28-31, or 31-34 (obviously I'm speaking in old terminology, but you get the idea). Medicine is a path of sacrifice. No better time to start than during your MCAT studying. Shelve everything that isn't academic or that you need to do to financially survive, and keep on it for five or six hours a night, ever night, for three months (Sn2ed's plan was built on this sort of timetable, and I modified it for my own needs) and you will optimize your chances of doing well enough to get into med school.

If someone isn't willing to do that, well... Maybe they don't deserve to get in?

 

[Mad Jack]

Just to clarify, when I was referring to money issues during MCAT prep I moreso meant 'being given a magic $5000 gift card to spend on test prep', Not 'being able to afford rent, food, internet etc.'

I would not have spent a dime more than the 200ish bucks I dropped. Anything more would have been a waste.

 

[jd989898]

Beyond good prep books, no, I don't think another 5000 would improve your score

Yep. I sort of got the vibe that when the OP said "money" he really meant money to spend on prep, and it seems like people are now also considering money's 10,000 other potential influences. Money defines your power, time, connections, environment, community, opportunities, security, etc. In order to expect to come to any answers/agreements we'll have to practically define exactly what the money is and isn't providing for us.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Please, the SAT is a joke.

And the MCAT is a joke compared to the USMLEs. The medical education system would not be harmed by the elimination of the MCAT and most students would be better off without it. It's just another test contributing to this silly cottage industry (USMLE Step 2 CS, anyone?); if we are serious about cutting the costs of healthcare in the country, one easy place to start would be medical education.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Also, no one take offense when I say this, but I think it would be better to take responsibility for your score rather than make excuses. I understand severe disadvantage to the point where y0u can't afford even prep books, but one can always choose to manage time better. I learned to do that. Change your method, change the strategy, whatever you need to do.

 

[mehc012]

And the MCAT is a joke compared to the USMLEs. The medical education system would not be harmed by the elimination of the MCAT and most students would be better off without it. It's just another test contributing to this silly cottage industry (USMLE Step 2 CS, anyone?); if we are serious about cutting the costs of healthcare in the country, one easy place to start would be medical education.

No, no...I'm not saying that the SAT is a joke compared to the MCAT, I'm saying the SAT is a joke, period.
Also, your stance on MCAT vs Step 1 isn't universal. SAT vs MCAT is, though.

 

[el_duderino]

SAT scores are extremely compressed at the top, and kids tend to take the SAT at about 17 years old. The *average* SAT score for places like Harvard and MIT are perfect scores.

The SAT would be useless for medical school admissions.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

No, no...I'm not saying that the SAT is a joke compared to the MCAT, I'm saying the SAT is a joke, period.
Also, your stance on MCAT vs Step 1 isn't universal. SAT vs MCAT is, though.

mehc012, I am more then OK with my opinion being "contrarian". I also hold a contrarian viewpoint re the USMLEs -- they were meant to be licensing exams, the score didn't matter that much for IM application in my era, and I think we should go back to that era. I'll go one step further - I think USMLE 1 and 2 should be combined, they should eliminate CS and 3 should be some sort of open book test. I think every effort should be made to decrease the costs and the stakes of these exams.

 

[Ad2b]

I think it would be better to take responsibility for your score rather than make excuses.

Agree 100% and if life is kicking the ash, then void and retake when life isn't so frenetic. Then apply.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

SAT scores are extremely compressed at the top, and kids tend to take the SAT at about 17 years old. The *average* SAT score for places like Harvard and MIT are perfect scores.

The SAT would be useless for medical school admissions.

... and very few people from Harvard or MIT have been rejected from medical school because of MCAT scores. So ... why not just get rid of the MCAT?

 

[mehc012]

mehc012, I am more then OK with my opinion being "contrarian". I also hold a contrarian viewpoint re the USMLEs -- they were meant to be licensing exams, the score didn't matter that much for IM application in my era, and I think we should go back to that era. I'll go one step further - I think USMLE 1 and 2 should be combined, they should eliminate CS and 3 should be some sort of open book test. I think every effort should be made to decrease the costs and the stakes of these exams.

Don't know why you're quoting "contrarian" when I never said it. And I don't honestly care what your opinion is on whether or when the USMLEs happen...it's not even remotely germane to the topic of the thread.

 

[el_duderino]

... and very few people from Harvard or MIT have been rejected from medical school because of MCAT scores. So ... why not just get rid of the MCAT?

Because then you're left with GPA as the only objective measure of academic performance. I could see someone arguing that's fine, but the idea that you can replace the MCAT with the SAT is pretty absurd. We have data on how well MCAT correlates to Step 1 scores.

If you're proposing replacing the MCAT with the SAT, I'd expect you to have evidence that the SAT correlates to Step 1 at least as well as the MCAT. Do you have that, or are you just making things up?

 

[Affiche]

Uh, I kept my **** together just fine. It's possible, people just need to be willing to put in the hard work. Those couple of points can make a big difference, particularly if you're going from 28-31, or 31-34 (obviously I'm speaking in old terminology, but you get the idea). Medicine is a path of sacrifice. No better time to start than during your MCAT studying. Shelve everything that isn't academic or that you need to do to financially survive, and keep on it for five or six hours a night, ever night, for three months (Sn2ed's plan was built on this sort of timetable, and I modified it for my own needs) and you will optimize your chances of doing well enough to get into med school.

If someone isn't willing to do that, well... Maybe they don't deserve to get in?

I also kept my **** together just fine, but other people have other **** going on. Some applicants have kids to financially support, an ill parent, etc. Personally, I wasn't willing to have my car repossessed so that I could score 2 points higher on my MCAT. That doesn't mean that I'm not hardworking (I've worked my ass off, thanks much) or don't deserve to go to medical school.

Also, no one take offense when I say this, but I think it would be better to take responsibility for your score rather than make excuses. I understand severe disadvantage to the point where y0u can't afford even prep books, but one can always choose to manage time better. I learned to do that. Change your method, change the strategy, whatever you need to do.

Again, I don't think anyone is complaining or making excuses for their scores. My entire point in this whole thread is that not everyone has the same opportunity to score their highest on the MCAT, yet it seems that the pre-med common belief is that MCAT= intelligence + motivation. That just isn't true. If anything, this thread has served as an excellent example of the tendency to apply one's own experience to that of others.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Don't know why you're quoting "contrarian" when I never said it. And I don't honestly care what your opinion is on whether or when the USMLEs happen...it's not even remotely germane to the topic of the thread.

Because then you're left with GPA as the only objective measure of academic performance. I could see someone arguing that's fine, but the idea that you can replace the MCAT with the SAT is pretty absurd. We have data on how well MCAT correlates to Step 1 scores.

If you're proposing replacing the MCAT with the SAT, I'd expect you to have evidence that the SAT correlates to Step 1 at least as well as the MCAT. Do you have that, or are you just making things up?

See above. The USMLE is just a licensing exam. You don't need a test to predict the scores. You just need the students to pass.

 

[mehc012]

See above. The USMLE is just a licensing exam. You don't need a test to predict the scores. You just need the students to pass.

I...didn't dispute that? Mostly because I didn't mention the USMLEs, because they're not relevant to this discussion. Why do you keep bringing them up?

 

[Gandyy]

@mehc012 - I would say the difference between that 29 and 27 are much larger than the the 34 to 32.

The 29 says, "almost 30" whereas the 27 says almost fail. The 34/32 is non-sequitor.

Yep, the difference between a 29 and a 27 is 12 percentile whereas the difference between a 34 and a 32 is 4 percentile.

 

[Mad Jack]

See above. The USMLE is just a licensing exam. You don't need a test to predict the scores. You just need the students to pass.

I'd love for them to switch both the USMLE and MCAT to a pass-fail exam, but at the same time, I have a feeling there would be unintended consequences. People would probably largely be selected based on pedigree, exaggerating already existing disparities in admission between those from top schools and those from average schools. Basically you'd end up with a private high school>Ivy>Ivy med school>top residency pipeline, since prestige would be the secret to success at every level, and no amount of hard work could push your "Pass" above a student from a better school's "Pass."

 

[RustBeltOnc]

I...didn't dispute that? Mostly because I didn't mention the USMLEs, because they're not relevant to this discussion. Why do you keep bringing them up?

Sorry typo ---was responding to jonnythan.

 

[Gandyy]

Also, no one take offense when I say this, but I think it would be better to take responsibility for your score rather than make excuses. I understand severe disadvantage to the point where y0u can't afford even prep books, but one can always choose to manage time better. I learned to do that. Change your method, change the strategy, whatever you need to do.

Or admit that you suck at Standardized Tests like I do. 🙂

 

[Affiche]

I'd love for them to switch both the USMLE and MCAT to a pass-fail exam, but at the same time, I have a feeling there would be unintended consequences. People would probably largely be selected based on pedigree, exaggerating already existing disparities in admission between those from top schools and those from average schools. Basically you'd end up with a private high school>Ivy>Ivy med school>top residency pipeline, since prestige would be the secret to success at every level, and no amount of hard work could push your "Pass" above a student from a better school's "Pass."

This is a really good point, though. The MCAT is supposed to be a competency exam. I think the SES limitations would be mitigated if it was actually used only as a competency exam, at least in terms of MCAT scoring. However, the secondary effects of using it as a competency exam could be disastrous.

 

[el_duderino]

See above. The USMLE is just a licensing exam. You don't need a test to predict the scores. You just need the students to pass.

So produce data showing that the SAT correlates at least as well as the MCAT with USMLE pass rates.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

I'd love for them to switch both the USMLE and MCAT to a pass-fail exam, but at the same time, I have a feeling there would be unintended consequences. People would probably largely be selected based on pedigree, exaggerating already existing disparities in admission between those from top schools and those from average schools. Basically you'd end up with a private high school>Ivy>Ivy med school>top residency pipeline, since prestige would be the secret to success at every level, and no amount of hard work could push your "Pass" above a student from a better school's "Pass."

Madjack -- that already happens anyway, with all the stress and nonsense of 1000s of people taking the MCAT. Therefore, I think they should just stop the pretense and eliminate the test. Very few are truly helped by it (actually includes me), for most it is a hassle.

 

[el_duderino]

I...didn't dispute that? Mostly because I didn't mention the USMLEs, because they're not relevant to this discussion. Why do you keep bringing them up?

The USMLE is extremely relevant, because the entire point of the MCAT is to help predict med school performance, as measured primarily by board scores/pass rates.

For any type of test, whether academic or medical or whatever, you have to think about what you're trying to measure and what information you're trying to obtain with that measure.

 

[Gandyy]

And the MCAT is a joke compared to the USMLEs. The medical education system would not be harmed by the elimination of the MCAT and most students would be better off without it. It's just another test contributing to this silly cottage industry (USMLE Step 2 CS, anyone?); if we are serious about cutting the costs of healthcare in the country, one easy place to start would be medical education.

I've heard it both ways. Some medical students have said they though preparing for the USMLE was easier than for the MCAT, and of course I've heard it the other way around just as you say.

 

[Affiche]

@RustBeltOnc law schools use the LSAT, a non-content based exam, and there's evidence to show that the LSAT is not an indicator for bar passage. I'm not sure using the SAT would be the best solution.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

So produce data showing that the SAT correlates at least as well as the MCAT with USMLE pass rates.

My point is, it doesn't matter. Even if by using the SAT only, you did a admit few people extra that would flunk the USMLE I:

a) 95+ % of the students will still be better off for not taking the MCAT
b) those students will still pass the USMLE 1 eventually and move on.

 

[Mad Jack]

Madjack -- that already happens anyway, with all the stress and nonsense of 1000s of people taking the MCAT. Therefore, I think they should just stop the pretense and eliminate the test. Very few are truly helped by it (actually includes me), for most it is a hassle.

I just view it as a second chance for a lot of people, a way for those that went to less prestigious schools or had less fortunate backgrounds to prove they are just as competent as those that went to more elite schools in regard to the basic sciences. Without it, you'd pretty much doom anyone that went to the low-tier state universities or community colleges to never getting into medical school, which is far from the case today.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I also kept my **** together just fine, but other people have other **** going on. Some applicants have kids to financially support, an ill parent, etc. Personally, I wasn't willing to have my car repossessed so that I could score 2 points higher on my MCAT. That doesn't mean that I'm not hardworking (I've worked my ass off, thanks much) or don't deserve to go to medical school.

Again, I don't think anyone is complaining or making excuses for their scores. My entire point in this whole thread is that not everyone has the same opportunity to score their highest on the MCAT, yet it seems that the pre-med common belief is that MCAT= intelligence + motivation. That just isn't true. If anything, this thread has served as an excellent example of the tendency to apply one's own experience to that of others.

Ok I don't want to argue with you, but you claiming to "wing" a section and only focus on the high yield topics earlier did sound like an excuse (but please correct me if I am wrong). Look I'm sorry for all the **** you faced while studying for the mcat (and much more that I'm not aware of). We all face different levels and types of stress during our lives - I have too; life's not fair and it puts many of us at a disadvantage compared to privileged kids. But in the end of the day, it's up to us to make the best of it when studying for one of the most important exams of our life.

 

[el_duderino]

My point is, it doesn't matter. Even if by using the SAT only, you admitted few people extra that would flunk the USMLE I:
a) 95+ % of the students will still be better off for not taking the MCAT
b) those students will still pass the USMLE 1 eventually and move on.

a) Qualitative assertion that I disagree with
b) There is no evidence for this assertation

 

[Mad Jack]

My point is, it doesn't matter. Even if by using the SAT only, you did a admit few people extra that would flunk the USMLE I:

a) 95+ % of the students will still be better off for not taking the MCAT
b) those students will still pass the USMLE 1 eventually and move on.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16186610

The research on medical school performance clearly shows it is the best predictor of medical school success, both in regard to GPA and Step scores. While Step scores aren't the best indicator of anything, GPA at least gives you a measure of how competent the students are. You're getting more competent students by picking using MCAT scores, to the point that GPA was actually found to be of negligible importance when compared with MCAT score alone.

 

[Gandyy]

I will agree with GlazedDonut, that there are many people who use money as an excuse for their poor academic performance. Rachiie did well anyways even with her circumstances so I dont think she is making excuses.

However, there are people with potential out there who do get subdued in this cruel life revolving around money. Life isnt fair. The important thing is to recognize that early on, and do what you can with the time that is given to you.

Yes, I used that last part of the sentence from Gandalf's lord of the rings quote.

 

[GrapesofRath]

It's not a hassle. It's almost mandatory to be able to have one test that compares all applicants. The MCAT is not some content based test that tests how much time and exposure you have to memorizing info like the DAT. It's a logic based test that assesses reasoning and reading comprehension skills. You can't just measure this any other way. It's very difficult to measure this without having a well designed standardized test. And these skills are very important when talking about a field like medicine and the rigor of medical school. There needs to be some measure of them that medical schools can have to assess an applicant.

The AAMC would love nothing more than for the MCAT to be pass or fail. And in theory it would be fine. The % of people who pass medical school doesn't really vary for 27+ scores. But what does that leave you? It leaves you having to over-emphasize other parts of the app. Your left to put enormous weight in academic transcripts where there are huge variations and fluctuations based off the type of undergrad school, the type of professors etc. Your left to put enormous weight in people's ECs which are definitely influenced by class and family income. And beyond that medical schools aren't interested in taking people who can "merely" pass. They want people who can thrive, ace STEP-1 and go on to top specialities. This is where the MCAT comes in to play in giving some idea of how an applicant might do at that by showing their performance in standardized tests and how well they reason. There comes a point where you can only ascern so much from an undergrad transcript when trying to correlate it to medical school performance given how much harder medical school is. For those to thrive in medical school, they need a level of critical thinking and reasoning skills not assessed in a transcript. While the MCAT is hardly a perfect measure of this, it does provide some measure of it and give insight into someone's ability to take standardized tests. For this field, that's huge and why many emphasize higher scores and the flaws in just making it pass or fail. The alternative if the MCAT is P/F in assessing applicants just has so many flaws.