How would you have handled this?

[amazing tekkers]

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I'm a firm believer in giving people 2nd chances. People make mistakes, that's just what makes us human. I don't think I would've reported him, maybe would have sent him a message, but you had good intentions.

 

[knv2u]

Wait, so it's okay to say whatever you want (i.e. racist slurs in this context), but it's hypocritical for other people to call you out? Interesting...

I don't think that is his position at all. This isn't about calling someone's ignorance out to his or her face. This is about running to administration because someone doesn't agree with what you have posted. Those are two entirely different things in my opinion. Unless there was a threat or implied sense of imminent violence or lawless action, the proper thing is to either leave things alone (preferable) or to politely tell the poster about your concerns (as the OP did). Running to administration to complain about a classmate seems juvenile at best which was suggested by members here and actually done by the OP's classmates.

Preaching tolerance while socially crucifying those they deem to be intolerant.

The height of hypocrisy and dangerous as hell.

What if someday it's your ideas that have gone out of style?

I agree with this. I don't like racists anymore than anyone else here, but to criticize someone for being intolerant and then being intolerant yourself blows my mind. Tolerance is a two way street. I think a good number of people in this thread need to learn how to deal with others whose opinions are contrary to their own - even those that are despicable. This skill is vital for physicians. As future physicians, we must be prepared to treat people whose personal and political beliefs do not align with our own. We might even despise our future patients' beliefs and be justified in doing so, but we still must treat them. The people in this thread might as well become accustomed to dealing with jerks now or they're going to be in for a rude awakening. Try telling the attending during residency you don't want to see a patient because you hate the patient or think he or she is a jerk...

Ah ok. Yah if I was administration that would solicit an immediate reject/firing/rescind from me, at least. That punishment is probably extreme but I don't think society (especially in the upper-eschelons of educated society) has room for those people to exist.

And if you were an administrative official at a public medical school, you would find yourself on the receiving end of a lawsuit. A lawsuit pursuant to 42 U.S.C. Section 1983 to be exact. The only legitimate gripe that the medical school has is that he is posting these comments on Facebook and the pages will presumably reference his association with the medical school. In this scenario, the only thing I could potentially see the school doing is stating that the school is not licensing the use of its name to appear on the page, and tell him that they want their name off of any pages with this content. Other than that, the school is infringing upon his First Amendment right to freedom of speech. And yes, the First Amendment applies to speech that we don't like. Unless there is an imminent threat of lawless action or violence, then the First Amendment applies. (Cf. Brandenburg v. Ohio). Your version of free speech scares me ("you can say whatever you want, so as long as we agree with it...").

^ Yep. that is probably what 90% of us would do.

But, if this was a med school interview question. Be like: "I'd talk to this person, enlighten them about being accepting of everyone, tell the administration, and file a report with the ACLU".

If I were an adcom, I would actually question your judgment in your response to the medical school interview question. The very last part makes no sense whatsoever. There is no violation of a civil liberty by him posting those comments, and I cannot think of any reason for the ACLU to be involved (it is usually involved in litigation) unless the school dismisses the racist student, in which case, the ACLU would likely represent the student. Yes, the ACLU has done things like this before. Being a racist jerk isn't enough to warrant a lawsuit.

 

[knv2u]

In your class social media group you see someone make a post you haven't met or talk to. You click on their profile and they have blatant racist (no epithets but every reasonable person would agree including those in my class who saw) remarks all over to minorities and other races as well. I felt compelled to confront them to let them know how stupid they were and should be mindful of what they post on social media. They delete their postings, say it won't happen again and block you. I had a classmate already tell the administration. Thoughts?

My thought process was to avoid the person and if I came in contact to just let everyone know what kind of person they were if anyone else was around (tactfully). Kind of a tough situation.

please keep convo civil.

What were the comments?

 

[knv2u]

ok. personal attacks against a group of people based on perceived stereotypes is definitely 'racism' territory. i agree with you. Then you should name the school. so at least its out in public. you wouldnt be defaming anyone bc youve just been stating your opinion. stuff like this should be out in the open.

Also, truth is a good defense. If you state that person X at school Y, posted ABC, then that is a fact.

 

[knv2u]

If someone says a racist, sexist, homophobic or whatever thing, they deserve to get called out on it.

I wouldn't necessarily tell the administration, but if you post something on Facebook you are looking for a public response.

Yes, I agree but that is different than what most are suggesting here.

 

[knv2u]

You shouldn't be surprised by this.

Behavior like this will be VERY rampant in your future career. In med school, residency, etc. If someone finds something distasteful, or offensive, they will spread it like wildfire with a huge smile.

Then again, for the most part, people aren't overly offensive in a public setting anyway, so it doesn't affect a lot of people.

This doesn't say a lot for the profession that I have chosen to join. As educated as doctors are are, one would presume that open mindedness and dealing with those we don't agree with would come more naturally. I guess I'm wrong there.

 

[knv2u]

cru·ci·fy
: to kill (someone) by nailing or tying his or her hands and feet to a cross (I had hoped I could assume you and others would know that I wasn't using this meaning, however I've been proven wrong twice, now)

: to criticize (someone or something) very harshly

You're using logic. Stop it. 🙄

But seriously, you come off as the most open minded and tolerant person on this thread so far.

 

[knv2u]

Did the person remove the offensive remarks from his/her Facebook?

I thought the OP said yes.

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[knv2u]

Seeing as I'm a minority, I would file a complaint with the school. Medical school often entails a close-knit environment that is necessary when students are being trained to be members of a medical team. Someone who makes minority students feel uncomfortable really compromises the integrity of this environment. ADCOMS carefully select applicants to construct a class with diversity, with people they think will really contribute to and enhance this environment. The administration deserves to know if someone like this has been offered a seat.

Technically, most would consider me a minority as well (I won't disclose which group for personal reasons), and I would be more disturbed by my well meaning yet overzealous classmates than the inflammatory poster.

 

[knv2u]

They must not get on sdn , because if they did, they'd see what happened a little over a year ago to someone in their exact position. I have a feeling this person in your Op is gonna get what is coming to them.

Could you clarify this? Links?

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[Mr Roboto]

I'm really curious now. What did this guy actually say that was so racist? C'mon OP—enlighten us!

Also, knv2u, would you mind not posting 37 replies to the thread in a row? It's annoying to refresh the page that many times 🙁

 

[dbeast]

Potatoers gonna potate

This just made the last two pages worth reading.

So... what were we talking about again guys?

 

[dbeast]

Tonight on ESPN:

vs.

 

[wjs010]

Could you clarify this? Links?

Last year a guy posted stuff on Facebook, post acceptance to med school. His acceptance was rescinded because of his post. I remember talking to the guy because he added me on FB. He was really nice to me. He did make a poor choice and I don't know what happened to him.

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[knv2u]

@Mornhavon @wjs010
Thank you both!

I'm really curious now. What did this guy actually say that was so racist? C'mon OP—enlighten us!

Also, knv2u, would you mind not posting 37 replies to the thread in a row? It's annoying to refresh the page that many times 🙁

Yeah, sorry. I get a little carried away sometimes. 🙁 I was losing the ability to manage all of the different posts that I was initially interested in responding.

 

[The Buff OP]

In your class social media group you see someone make a post you haven't met or talk to. You click on their profile and they have blatant racist (no epithets but every reasonable person would agree including those in my class who saw) remarks all over to minorities and other races as well. I felt compelled to confront them to let them know how stupid they were and should be mindful of what they post on social media. They delete their postings, say it won't happen again and block you. I had a classmate already tell the administration. Thoughts?

My thought process was to avoid the person and if I came in contact to just let everyone know what kind of person they were if anyone else was around (tactfully). Kind of a tough situation.

please keep convo civil.

It depends, knowing how I get aggravated about things when people are so ignorant, I would say something to that person, but I would not report them to an administrator. One of my friends confess to me the other day that he hates African Americans (he's white) while we were doing cardio, but he said Latinos are cool though (I'm Hispanic) SMH. I stayed quiet on that time.

 

[calcio1020]

Am I the only one that finds it disturbing the amount of people who are saying they would and have reported things like this? Maybe it's just the libertarian in me but in this country people are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, regardless of how how ignorant they may be. If they aren't threatening anyone, then get over it. Who gives a rat's ass what some random person in your class believes?

 

[Lucca]

Am I the only one that finds it disturbing the amount of people who are saying they would and have reported things like this? Maybe it's just the libertarian in me but in this country people are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, regardless of how how ignorant they may be. If they aren't threatening anyone, then get over it. Who gives a rat's ass what some random person in your class believes?

Racism in a professional setting is intolerable. Like it or not, social media is now an extension of your professional persona.

I would report something like this because racism impedes the lives of others in many ways and racists deserve to have their lives impeded on by their ignorant beliefs as well.

They can think and say whatever they like, but no one should be complaining if those beliefs have consequences.

 

[calcio1020]

I would report something like this because racism impedes the lives of others in many ways and racists deserve to have their lives impeded on by their ignorant beliefs as well.

Says you. It's a slippery slope when we start punishing people for their beliefs. If you report this person to the school, and they do not punish him in a manner that you consider to be satisfactory, what then? Do you punish him yourself?

 

[Lucca]

Says you. It's a slippery slope when we start punishing people for their beliefs. If you report this person to the school, and they do not punish him in a manner that you consider to be satisfactory, what then? Do you punish him yourself?

No. If the administration reaches a consensus that satisfies them or they deem that their actions were harmless and probably a product of frustration, lack of sleep, or other anomalies then that is fine. There are usually people around to assess situations like these and the only arena where I wish to act as sole arbiter is the arena of my personal relations. Outside of that, Id rather have a community consensus.

But I would also not like it to go unnoticed and unmentioned.

 

[infinitessimal]

Am I the only one that finds it disturbing the amount of people who are saying they would and have reported things like this? Maybe it's just the libertarian in me but in this country people are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, regardless of how how ignorant they may be. If they aren't threatening anyone, then get over it. Who gives a rat's ass what some random person in your class believes?

I read that in a Ron Swanson voice.

 

[knv2u]

No. If the administration reaches a consensus that satisfies them or they deem that their actions were harmless and probably a product of frustration, lack of sleep, or other anomalies then that is fine. There are usually people around to assess situations like these and the only arena where I wish to act as sole arbiter is the arena of my personal relations. Outside of that, Id rather have a community consensus.

But I would also not like it to go unnoticed and unmentioned.

What I don't understand is why so many would feel compelled to run to the administration. It seems to me that those students would be missing a golden opportunity to try to use logic and reason with their future classmate overtime to allow the classmate to see the problem with his or her logic. Rather, so many would rather try to destroy the person. You would accomplish nothing by doing so, and if anything, you would make the classmate even more resistant to considering a change in point of view.

 

[Lucca]

What I don't understand is why so many would feel compelled to run to the administration. It seems to me that those students would be missing a golden opportunity to try to use logic and reason with their future classmate overtime to allow the classmate to see the problem with his or her logic. Rather, so many would rather try to destroy the person. You would accomplish nothing by doing so, and if anything, you would make the classmate even more resistant to considering a change in point of view.

Have you ever tried arguing with a racist? It doesnt work one on one.

I remember a time in high school where a girl told me that mexicans dont matter (im latino, not mexican, but nevertheless) and I stayed calm and tried to reason with her about why people in general matter. Nothing changed.

Later, she made a similar, more inflammatory comment in class and everyone including the teacher verbally ganged up on her for being so ignorant. She decided she should probably rethink her position.

Consequences work

 

[knv2u]

Have you ever tried arguing with a racist? It doesnt work one on one.

I remember a time in high school where a girl told me that mexicans dont matter (im latino, not mexican, but nevertheless) and I stayed calm and tried to reason with her about why people in general matter. Nothing changed.

Later, she made a similar, more inflammatory comment in class and everyone including the teacher verbally ganged up on her for being so ignorant. She decided she should probably rethink her position.

Consequences work

I don't know; I have had success on discussing issues that touch upon race relations with other classmates in the past. One student isn't a lot. Sometimes you can't fix ignorance. 🙁

Racism in a professional setting is intolerable....I would report something like this because racism impedes the lives of others in many ways and racists deserve to have their lives impeded on by their ignorant beliefs as well.
They can think and say whatever they like, but no one should be complaining if those beliefs have consequences.

I don't disagree with your conclusion that racism in a professional setting is necessarily problematic, but I think you are missing the slippery slope that you create by wanting to dismiss people because of their personal beliefs. Look at this example, using parallel logic:

1. Hypocrisy is intolerable in a professional setting.
2. People who oppose racism (i.e. intolerance) and demand that such students be dismissed are also being intolerant and thus hypocritical.
3. Those people who are hypocritical should be dismissed because a group of other students, faculty member, and staff have determined that those beliefs are inconsistent with professionalism and the "good" of the community.
4. Therefore, those people are dismissed.

You could substitute any number of things for racism in your quotes. And for the record, I don't think we really disagree on the underlying issue (that the OP's classmate is a jerk); I just think things should be handled differently.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I'm trying to figure out who wins the race to the bottom of intolerance, the real racist out there, or those of you who think just because you decide someone is racist (subjective interpretation not-withstanding) you tell on them like you're 5 years old and try to wreck their entire futures.

Trying to change hearts and minds through force, intimidation and fear is the realm of tyrants and would be dictators.

This is disturbing.

So the ethical thing is to let it go and allow that clown to work with people, including minorities? Good thing psychological disposition doesn't exist, right? Oops.

 

[Corvid]

The cavalry has arrived, I feel like @knv2u is really hitting the nail on the head on this one.

Have you ever tried arguing with a racist? It doesnt work one on one.

I remember a time in high school where a girl told me that mexicans dont matter (im latino, not mexican, but nevertheless) and I stayed calm and tried to reason with her about why people in general matter. Nothing changed.

Later, she made a similar, more inflammatory comment in class and everyone including the teacher verbally ganged up on her for being so ignorant. She decided she should probably rethink her position.

Consequences work

You're right, consequences do work. However, both scenarios involve reasoning with the racist in question.

In case one (one on one convo), you tried to reason with her to no avail.
In case two (class), she made a dumb comment and the whole class essentially called her out. Apparently you all were successful in getting her to rethink her position.

Based on your reply, the administration was never involved and the conflict was mediated in a group setting amongst her peers and a responsible mediator (the teacher). I hope your discussion was stern but also carried with restraint. In these situations, you want to win the person over to your side, not antagonize them to the point where they completely shut off to further discourse.

This may have not been your intention, but to me, your reply essentially strengthened knv2u's claim to use logic and reason with the problematic classmate.

That said, a possibly good way to handle OP's problem is to have a group discussion with him and his classmates to explain to him why his viewpoints are unacceptable/unprofessional/whatever. Maybe it takes more than one person to convince someone that they're wrong. OP did the first step by letting him know. I feel the administration should only be involved if the character in question resists reasoning and continues to behave in a way that is truly counterproductive to the kind of environment the school wants to promote. Again, we don't have all the facts, so it's really hard for us to give OP the best advice possible.

People should have the opportunity to redeem themselves. The excessively heavy-handed methods and overly harsh punishments that people on this thread advocate, though well intentioned**, are pretty narrow-minded.

**Who here actually supports racism? We are all on the same page that racism is morally repugnant.

 

[knv2u]

So the ethical thing is to let it go and allow that clown to work with people, including minorities? Good thing psychological disposition doesn't exist, right? Oops.

No, you work with the racist student and try to reason with the person. Have you ever heard of contact theory/hypothesis? Sometime talking with intellectual minority group members who reach out actually reduces racist impulses. Sometimes talking with others actually works. If that person maintains racist views, so as long as those are not expressed openly in an academic forum or to patients, then that is the student's problem and no one else should be involved and try to act as the "thought police." If however, the student actually disrupts the academic environment by harassing students and making disruptive comments in an academic forum, or if such a person (as a student or later doctor) makes those comments to a patient and/or compromises the care that a minority patient receives, then that is a whole different ballgame. In that scenario, dismissal or termination would likely result and the student would effectively self select out later.

 

[Patassa]

So the ethical thing is to let it go and allow that clown to work with people, including minorities? Good thing psychological disposition doesn't exist, right? Oops.

I had moved on to the bigger point.
But, if you want to bring ethics into this, where are the ethics to support the kind of group-think witch hunting that results in all of these people piling on with absolutely no sound evidence to support the accusations from the OP and calling for a public character execution? Scientifically, morally, and ethically bankrupt. Reminiscent of McCarthyism.

Also,
There's a huge difference between this type of racism
"I hate brown people so much that if I had one as a patient I would let them die before lifting a finger to help them"

Is this person dangerous and repugnant. Yes, without a doubt. No one here is defending these types of positions.

and the faux racism that says every stereotype is racist and those who make them are racist.
"Black people are good athletes", "Asians are good at math", "Jews are good with money"

Do you really think this second group is a danger to society and need to "cease to exist" as another poster was calling for?

It's all racism to some.
Deserving of the same consequence?
Who gets to decide where that line is?
Slippery slope.

Racism is an idea, it can be replaced with other, better ideas. This "off with his head" mentality is frightening. If you really care about people and tolerance so much (after all, isn't this the standard line for why you're all so anti-racist and inclusive of all people, because you care?), you'd have a little grace and patience toward all people. People can and do often change, so work with them.

If you're not willing to do that, what you are demonstrating is that you only care about people whom you agree with.
That's as repugnant as racism for the same reason.
You've traded racism for agreement-ism.

 

[masaraksh]

It depends, knowing how I get aggravated about things when people are so ignorant, I would say something to that person, but I would not report them to an administrator. One of my friends confess to me the other day that he hates African Americans (he's white) while we were doing cardio, but he said Latinos are cool though (I'm Hispanic) SMH. I stayed quiet on that time.

Maybe your friend was just trying to give you a compliment but it came out wrong?

 

[NontradCA]

It's a waste of time to try to convince the guy to change his views. These things are ingrained in people from the environment that they've grown up in. I actually know where the viewpoints come from with this guy. I have no doubt that it comes from ignorance and that it's something that can be changed by exposure and experience. A lot of these kids are sheltered like this dude and while they might not have racist views, they have a lot to learn about the world and people.

That being said, simple conversations aren't going to do it. It will take a lot of time and effort on his part to seeing that he's an ass. I don't think you have that kind of time in medical school and he will more than likely turn out to be a bad doctor and people will dislike him.

When I confronted him on this issue, he didn't seem to think he was wrong and was brazen in his statements, which I was not surprised at. He even tried to reason with me about it and I told him I wasn't interested in having a debate, and that he shouldn't be spouting offensive comments on social media etc. He then deleted the post and blocked me, which made me lose all sympathy for the guy.

 

[Mr Interesting]

Also,
There's a huge difference between this type of racism
"I hate brown people so much that if I had one as a patient I would let them die before lifting a finger to help them"

"Black people are good athletes", "Asians are good at math", "Jews are good with money"

Yes but we don't know what was said and what else was on their page. It really does come down to what was said.

Saying "I wish I was black so I can run fast and jump to play basketball and run away from the cops" <--- is typical offensive "humor" that I hate but feel we as a society have gotten use to (still not okay though)

Saying "I hate black people and Hispanic people and they deserve to be slaves or hung and they shouldn't be in our country going to school and taking our jobs" is still typical but the type of racism our society likes to pretend doesn't exist anymore. In any case, can you imagine how that can make someone feel in a learning environment that will be stressful as hell to begin with? Comments like that are still beliefs but they make some feel uncomfortable and unsafe.


With all the hard work we put in to become physicians, I hate the idea of someone ruining their careers over something so stupid. However, I hate the idea of my future classmates, who bring some diversity and uniqueness to my school, feeling bullied, uncomfortable, and unsafe a lot more. I'm going to assume, if op and other classmates found it that bad it probably was. I don't know why we keep harping on beliefs so much. Dangerous beliefs has disastrous effects, we have learned this time and time again throughout history. Also when a hateful person (sexist, racist, homophobic) comes across the group they hate, very rarely there are positive outcomes.

 

[Patassa]

I don't know why we keep harping on beliefs so much. Dangerous beliefs has disastrous effects, we have learned this time and time again throughout history. Also when a hateful person (sexist, racist, homophobic) comes across the group they hate, very rarely there are positive outcomes.

There are 2 sides to this coin.
How you deal with those you deem sexist, racist, homophobic etc. stems from your own beliefs. Those beliefs can also be dangerous and hateful. History is replete with examples, as well.
This point seems to be being missed, consistently.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I had moved on to the bigger point.
But, if you want to bring ethics into this, where are the ethics to support the kind of group-think witch hunting that results all these people piling on with absolutely no sound evidence to support the accusations from the OP and calling for a public character execution? Scientifically, morally, and ethically bankrupt. Reminiscent of McCarthyism.

This is where I stopped reading. McCarthy had a hunt against people that didn't make any indications of communism and advocated for school teachers to sign certain pledges. This case is someone writing racist things and being reported. The person reporting isn't doing the final judgment and isn't looking for reasons to report someone. They stumbled upon it. If you want to "reminisce," think of common sense reporting restaurants not serving blacks after the civil rights act.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

No, you work with the racist student and try to reason with the person. Have you ever heard of contact theory/hypothesis? Sometime talking with intellectual minority group members who reach out actually reduces racist impulses. Sometimes talking with others actually works. If that person maintains racist views, so as long as those are not expressed openly in an academic forum or to patients, then that is the student's problem and no one else should be involved and try to act as the "thought police." If however, the student actually disrupts the academic environment by harassing students and making disruptive comments in an academic forum, or if such a person (as a student or later doctor) makes those comments to a patient and/or compromises the care that a minority patient receives, then that is a whole different ballgame. In that scenario, dismissal or termination would likely result and the student would effectively self select out later.

Sounds like you've never been around a 25 year old racist. It is far more effective to him to face consequences and better for the overall of society if we take the preventive measure.

 

[Patassa]

This is where I stopped reading. McCarthy had a hunt against people that didn't make any indications of communism and advocated for school teachers to sign certain pledges. This case is someone writing racist things and being reported. The person reporting isn't doing the final judgment and isn't looking for reasons to report someone. They stumbled upon it. If you want to "reminisce," think of common sense reporting restaurants not serving blacks after the civil rights act.

So you've diverted to the parallel to not deal with the rest of the points. Fair enough.

 

[Mr Interesting]

There are 2 sides to this coin.
How you deal with those you deem sexist, racist, homophobic etc. stems from your own beliefs. Those beliefs can also be dangerous and hateful. History is replete with examples, as well.
This point seems to be being missed, consistently.

no, it's not my friend.
I'm not saying we should fight hate with hate. I'm saying, depending on what was said it may be okay to alert the administration or the proper authorities. If someone is being hateful that others feel uncomfortable or unsafe, then reporting them is the only way to deal with it. People who watch bullies harass people are just as bad as the bullies themselves. We are instructed to speak up against hate and report it, op's classmates did just that.

 

[Lucca]

I don't know; I have had success on discussing issues that touch upon race relations with other classmates in the past. One student isn't a lot. Sometimes you can't fix ignorance. 🙁



I don't disagree with your conclusion that racism in a professional setting is necessarily problematic, but I think you are missing the slippery slope that you create by wanting to dismiss peoples because of their personal beliefs. Look at this example, using parallel logic:

1. Hypocrisy is intolerable in a professional setting.
2. People who oppose racism (i.e. intolerance) and demand that such students be dismissed are also being intolerant and thus hypocritical.
3. Those people who are hypocritical should be dismissed because a group of other students, faculty member, and staff have determined that those beliefs are inconsistent with professionalism and the "good" of the community.
4. Therefore, those people are dismissed.

You could substitute any number of things for racism in your quotes. And for the record, I don't think we really disagree on the underlying issue (that the OP's classmate is a jerk); I just think things should be handled differently.

I appreciate the logic you put forth here and it is sound but the only reason racism can be replaced with anything in your argument is because the underlying assumption is that intolerance of racism is arbitrary, but I do not believe it is.

Racism is so manifestly wrong and unanimously demonized that reaching a consensus whether something is racist or not is rather straightforward and commonplace.

I can see where one might find the danger in starting to police character flaws but racism is a rather gaping character flaw. You might say it is a subjective pursuit to set out to define what is gaping and what is not and to what extent but that is exactly why the administration is there.

When you are a representative of a medical school and, more importantly, the medical profession then your character is liable to scrutiny by the group you represent and the values they stand for. This is no different than being at a company where being racist will probably label you with "cannot work well with others" and get you fired.

Your solution is a lot more temperate but I feel it gambles on changing something that is deeply engrained in that person by that age. If college didn't change their mind then I doubt medical students will.

If a candidate expressed racist views in an interview, would you not reject him on the spot? So why not rescind or punish for an equal crime.

Again, to be clear, racism cannot be replaced with other undesirable traits/thoughts/opinions so readily because racism is universally deemed as morally reprehensible where something like hypocrisy could either represent a severe character flaw or a small inconsistency in belief/action, the latter being present in basically everyone.


Edit: im not going to waste time trying to argue "bad" versus "ok" racism since everything I say clearly applies to the former and yes it is rigidly defined because any sane human being knows when racism gets out of hand.

 

[Patassa]

no, it's my friend.
I'm not saying we should fight hate with hate. I'm saying, depending on what was said it may be okay to alert the administration or the proper authorities. If someone is being hateful that others feel uncomfortable or unsafe, then reporting them is the only way to deal with it. People who watch bullies harass people are just as bad as the bullies themselves. We are instructed to speak up against hate and report it, op's classmates did just that.

You wanted to know why we were harping on beliefs so much. I explained that beliefs are at play on both sides.
I don't know how else to explain that.

 

[Lucca]

You wanted to know why we were harping on beliefs so much. I explained that beliefs are at play on both sides.
I don't know how else to explain that.

Do you ever not sound condescendingg?

 

[Mr Interesting]

You wanted to know why we were harping on beliefs so much. I explained that beliefs are at play on both sides.
I don't know how else to explain that.

You don't need to. I wasn't asking for an explanation. I was making a statement.

 

[sourdoughllama]

I appreciate the logic you put forth here and it is sound but the only reason racism can be replaced with anything in your argument is because the underlying assumption is that intolerance of racism is arbitrary, but I do not believe it is.

Racism is so manifestly wrong and unanimously demonized that reaching a consensus whether something is racist or not is rather straightforward and commonplace.

I can see where one might find the danger in starting to police character flaws but racism is a rather gaping character flaw. You might say it is a subjective pursuit to set out to define what is gaping and what is not and to what extent but that is exactly why the administration is there.

When you are a representative of a medical school and, more importantly, the medical profession then your character is liable to scrutiny by the group you represent and the values they stand for. This is no different than being at a company where being racist will probably label you with "cannot work well with others" and get you fired.

Your solution is a lot more temperate but I feel it gambles on changing something that is deeply engrained in that person by that age. If college didn't change their mind then I doubt medical students will.

If a candidate expressed racist views in an interview, would you not reject him on the spot? So why not rescind or punish for an equal crime.

Again, to be clear, racism cannot be replaced with other undesirable traits/thoughts/opinions so readily because racism is universally deemed as morally reprehensible where something like hypocrisy could either represent a severe character flaw or a small inconsistency in belief/action, the latter being present in basically everyone.


Edit: im not going to waste time trying to argue "bad" versus "ok" racism since everything I say clearly applies to the former and yes it is rigidly defined because any sane human being knows when racism gets out of hand.

I think you're applying "racism is obviously morally wrong" too broadly. That is not the belief of everyone on earth, nor is there scientific proof to back those claims. The truth is that many people on earth are racist (and definitely still a lot in America), so what is "obvious" to many of us is just a common opinion among the educated. Do I agree with racism? Absolutely not. But do I have the moral authority to say that is is inherently wrong and that everyone has to abide by our definition of moral goodness? No.

If you are working for a company, or you attend a med school, then it is totally fair game to get called out/get punished for being racist. That is because most institutions has rules for that, and people agree to those rules before starting the job/school. Now, I am pretty sure that reserving a seat at a med school doesn't involve signing any anti-discrimination agreements, so the facebook poster is allowed to express his views anyway he wants (as long as it's not a literal threat, of course).

 

[Patassa]

Do you ever not sound condescendingg?

I'm trying to write matter-of- factly, leave emotion at the door, and not make unwarranted personal attacks to divert from the issues we're debating.

 

[Lucca]

I think you're applying "racism is obviously morally wrong" too broadly. That is not the belief of everyone on earth, nor is there scientific proof to back those claims. The truth is that many people on earth are racist (and definitely still a lot in America), so what is "obvious" to many of us is just a common opinion among the educated. Do I agree with racism? Absolutely not. But do I have the moral authority to say that is is inherently wrong and that everyone has to abide by our definition of moral goodness? No.

If you are working for a company, or you attend a med school, then it is totally fair game to get called out/get punished for being racist. That is because most institutions has rules for that, and people agree to those rules before starting the job/school. Now, I am pretty sure that reserving a seat at a med school doesn't involve signing any anti-discrimination agreements, so the facebook poster is allowed to express his views anyway he wants (as long as it's not a literal threat, of course).

Should our conversations of ethics and morality then pander to every opinion everyone on the earth has? No. The earth is a marketplace of ideas and in the battle for being morally justifiable racism has lost due to popular consensus.

Also, I'm not saying racism was right when it was supported by the moral majority either but at that point it is so heavily institutionalized and entrenched in the culture that racism is less a flaw of individual character and more one of the society at large - much like sexism today and homophobia is in a transitionary period.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Should our conversations of ethics and morality then pander to every opinion everyone on the earth has? No. The earth is a marketplace of ideas and in the battle for being morally justifiable racism has lost due to popular consensus.

Also, I'm not saying racism was right when it was supported by the moral majority either but at that point it is so heavily institutionalized and entrenched in the culture that racism is less a flaw of individual character and more one of the society at large - much like sexism today and homophobia is in a transitionary period.

No, of course not. But you cannot make absolute right vs. wrong arguments on subjects that are entirely subjective - even if there is an overwhelming popular opinion out there. That is what racism is, just an opinion. That poster is stupid for posting racist things because racism is viewed negatively by the majority of Americans. And I think you overestimate the number of people who are truly not racist. It's one thing to know politically correct conduct and one thing to truly be color blind. Just because most of us think racism is despicable, it doesn't mean opinions that differ from it are automatically incorrect.

I 100% agree with @knv2u. Unless the poster was literally threatening to kill people, he is free to express his opinions.

 

[touchpause13]

I'm curious what some of the adcoms on here think of this. ....

 

[Mr Interesting]

Unless the poster was literally threatening to kill people, he is free to express his opinions.

Right, because freedom of speech gives you the right to harass, bully, or make a certain group feel unsafe and uncomfortable as long as you are not threatening to end their lives.

I get it, we feel sorry for the guy because he is one of us, in the sense that he wants to be a doctor and has put in that hard work that is needed to get accepted. It sucks he could possibly get his acceptance rescinded because of this but we should know by now that we cannot afford be irresponsible. We cannot do it prior to matriculation, in med school, in residency, or as an attending as there will be serious repercussions or possible investigations. Simple solution: BE RESPONSIBLE AND USE COMMON SENSE.

 

[NontradCA]

This debate is stupid. There's nothing to debate here. Let's take the ethics out of it and look at the written contract the student signed abiding to conduct. He broke that. The school is free to judge however they see fit.