How would you have handled this?

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Mr Interesting said:
Right, because freedom of speech gives you the right to harass, bully, or make a certain group feel unsafe and uncomfortable as long as you are not threatening to end their lives.

I get it, we feel sorry for the guy because he is one of us, in the sense that he wants to be a doctor and has put in that hard work that is needed to get accepted. It sucks he could possibly get his acceptance rescinded because of this but we should know by now that we cannot afford be irresponsible. We cannot do it prior to matriculation, in med school, in residency, or as an attending as there will be serious repercussions or possible investigations. Simple solution: BE RESPONSIBLE AND USE COMMON SENSE.
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Lol naw. I don't feel sorry for the guy. I don't care if he's an accepted pre-med or a real bigot. He has the right to his own opinions like everyone else. And yes, I think he does have that right if I'm not mistaken. That makes him an as*hole and stupid, but he can do what he wants. What you guys refuse to see is that he can do what he wants regardless of how others might feel. You are not obliged to make everyone feel good and welcome.
 
NontradCA said:
This debate is stupid. There's nothing to debate here. Let's take the ethics out of it and look at the written contract the student signed abiding to conduct. He broke that. The school is free to judge however they see fit.
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wtf you asked "how would you have handled this situation"
 
Even if you aren't directly threating to kill someone, words still can hurt.

I say this as someone who was a victim of bullying. Using derogatory slurs or saying cruel things about a group of people is hurtful.

As I've said before, you are free to say what you want, but words have consequences.
 
sourdoughllama said:
Lol naw. I don't feel sorry for the guy. I don't care if he's an accepted pre-med or a real bigot. He has the right to his own opinions like everyone else. And yes, I think he does have that right if I'm not mistaken. That makes him an as*hole and stupid, but he can do what he wants. What you guys refuse to see is that he can do what he wants regardless of how others might feel. You are not obliged to make everyone feel good and welcome.
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True, but you are expected to report things that can become problematic and serious. Just use you best judgement.
 
sourdoughllama said:
Lol naw. I don't feel sorry for the guy. I don't care if he's an accepted pre-med or a real bigot. He has the right to his own opinions like everyone else. And yes, I think he does have that right if I'm not mistaken. That makes him an as*hole and stupid, but he can do what he wants. What you guys refuse to see is that he can do what he wants regardless of how others might feel. You are not obliged to make everyone feel good and welcome.
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This is the dumbest **** I've ever read.
 
NontradCA said:
This is the dumbest **** I've ever read.
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Oh why, because I support giving everyone equal amounts of free speech rights? You might not realize it, but by reporting someone's facebook posts due to an opinion you don't agree with makes you very intolerant. And if you want to reply to posts, please put some more effort into it.
 
You ever heard people say "does this make me sound like an dingus?" just need to say YES sometimes. Too many people bank on the fact that we will tolerate their bs. Don't give them permission. But I also believe in second chances, and that first impressions are usually horrible predictors for determining whether they are truly dinguses.
 
sourdoughllama said:
Oh why, because I support giving everyone equal amounts of free speech rights? You might not realize it, but by reporting someone's facebook posts due to an opinion you don't agree with makes you very intolerant. And if you want to reply to posts, please put some more effort into it.
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If you don't get how ridiculous the implications in that post are, effort on my end is not going to make a difference.
 
INOHELP said:
You ever heard people say "does this make me sound like an dingus?" just need to say YES sometimes. Too many people bank on the fact that we will tolerate their bs. Don't give them permission. But I also believe in second chances, and that first impressions are usually horrible predictors for determining whether they are truly dinguses.
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i-hate-when-people-say-nice-to-meet-you.jpg
 
sourdoughllama said:
No, of course not. But you cannot make absolute right vs. wrong arguments on subjects that are entirely subjective - even if there is an overwhelming popular opinion out there. That is what racism is, just an opinion. That poster is stupid for posting racist things because racism is viewed negatively by the majority of Americans. And I think you overestimate the number of people who are truly not racist. It's one thing to know politically correct conduct and one thing to truly be color blind. Just because most of us think racism is despicable, it doesn't mean opinions that differ from it are automatically incorrect.

I 100% agree with @knv2u. Unless the poster was literally threatening to kill people, he is free to express his opinions.
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Racism is a hateful opinion that actively puts others down for no reasonably justifiable reason and impedes the progress of our society. The point of free speech is that people can say or think what they want but others reserve the right to call them out for it and they need to bear the consequences.
 
Lucca said:
Racism is a hateful opinion that actively puts others down for no reasonably justifiable reason and impedes the progress of our society. The point of free speech is that people can say or think what they want but others reserve the right to call them out for it and they need to bear the consequences.
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Yeah, of course. People can call him out on it; they have the right to say what they want too and I fully support calling out racists that way. But the point is that the guy most likely has not signed any anti-discrimination forms for the med school, nor is he in a med school function. Therefore the attempt to bring his personal life/opinion to the attention of "the authorities" is unwarranted. If random facebook people berated him for being racist, I wouldn't have anything against that. As many have stated before, his actions are deemed to be negative, and people should be free to criticize him. But those criticizing should also be aware that they are just stating a different opinion. Unless he is part of an organization that has those rules and he agreed to those rules, the best one can do is to call him out on it informally.
 
calcio1020 said:
Am I the only one that finds it disturbing the amount of people who are saying they would and have reported things like this? Maybe it's just the libertarian in me but in this country people are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, regardless of how how ignorant they may be. If they aren't threatening anyone, then get over it. Who gives a rat's ass what some random person in your class believes?
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It seems to be now in days that we don't have that much freedom of speech. For example, If I was to say I don't like that gay people have an option of getting legally married a lot of folks would look down upon me.
 
The Buff OP said:
It seems to be now in days that we don't have that much freedom of speech. For example, If I was to say I don't like that gay people have an option of getting legally married a lot of folks would look down upon me.
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How is that going against free speech though? You can still say it.
 
touchpause13 said:
How is that going against free speech though? You can still say it.
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Just putting it out there that was an example and I do support gay marriage.

You can still say it, but so many people have socially accepted homosexuality that if you oppose homosexuality you will be crapped on and won't even get the chance to express your opinion.
 
The Buff OP said:
Just putting it out there that was an example and I do support gay marriage.

You can still say it, but so many people have socially accepted homosexuality that if you oppose homosexuality you will be crapped on and won't even get the chance to express your opinion.
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That's not a free speech thing though, that's more of a holding an opinion that's in the minority.
 
The Buff OP said:
I see you want to go at it, Fez. Leggo! Hahaha
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I'm not trying to go at you hon. I just think that the free speech argument gets thrown around a lot for things that aren't really related to free speech.
 
touchpause13 said:
I'm not trying to go at you hon. I just think that the free speech argument gets thrown around a lot for things that aren't really related to free speech.
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I was kidding about the "got at it" part, I know we are cool. You do have a point on the thing you said. Alrighty I'm off to buy be me some bodybuilding food.
 
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NontradCA said:
This debate is stupid. There's nothing to debate here. Let's take the ethics out of it and look at the written contract the student signed abiding to conduct. He broke that. The school is free to judge however they see fit.
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The debate was started by you posting this thread and asking what we would have done, and you are criticizing us because we respond honestly? If you had a certain answer you were looking for, why did you write such an opened ended original post?

And with regard to this written contract, I would love to see it. Contracts are applied using the plain meaning of the terms contained therein, and if there is any vagueness or ambiguity, it is construed against the drafter (i.e. the school). If he contractually agreed to do certain things and then refused, then yes, that could be problematic for the student legally.
 
touchpause13 said:
Even if you aren't directly threating to kill someone, words still can hurt.
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So can censorship...

touchpause13 said:
How is that going against free speech though? You can still say it.
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This runs afoul of the purpose of the First Amendment**. So you are free to express ideas, but we are going to punish them because we don't like them anyway? That makes a mockery of the First Amendment and would relegate it to mere superfluous language. To be sure there are case law exceptions limiting the scope of this speech, but these are very limited. There is a doctrine known as strict scrutiny in constitutional law. Laws which touch upon fundamental rights (defined as those explicitly provided for in the Constitution or deeply rooted in the nation's tradition and customs, typically for prolonged periods of a century or more) can only impinge on those rights if the government has a compelling reason, it's regulation narrowly tailored, and there are no less restrictive means available. Dismissing this student for his Facebook post, in my opinion, would not survive strict scrutiny.

** The OP has not answered my inquiry as to whether this is a public school (i.e. the school is a state/governmental actor) or a private school. I am proceeding under the assumption that the First Amendment is applicable (i.e. it is a state actor). Even if the First Amendment was inapplicable, your suggestion would have a chilling effect on free speech and should, in my opinion, be avoided in a society that claims to be a democracy (or at least, more accurately, a constitutional republic).
 
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This is a free country. There is freedom of speech. Freedom of self expression. What you think is wrong may be right to me. Right/Wrong is subjective.
 
malaika said:
This is a free country. There is freedom of speech. Freedom of self expression. What you think is wrong may be right to me. Right/Wrong is subjective.
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In that same vein, I'm incredibly happy that a significant portion of people believe it is wrong to hold others in slavery.
 
knv2u said:
The debate was started by you posting this thread and asking what we would have done, and you are criticizing us because we respond honestly? If you had a certain answer you were looking for, why did you write such an opened ended original post?

And with regard to this written contract, I would love to see it. Contracts are applied using the plain meaning of the terms contained therein, and if there is any vagueness or ambiguity, it is construed against the drafter (i.e. the school). If he contractually agreed to do certain things and then refused, then yes, that could be problematic for the student legally.
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In none of your posts do I see an answer to my what would you have done , just hyperbolic bs.

I'm going to ss the contract and post it here. Wait right here ok? It is highly important to me that I have provided you with proof.
 
NontradCA said:
In none of your posts do I see an answer to my what would you have done , just hyperbolic bs.

I'm going to ss the contract and post it here. Wait right here ok? It is highly important to me that I have provided you with proof.
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I did comment on what you did, and moreover you asked for opinions on what would be proper to do. And I gave that to you (call them out, try to work with them, etc., but not go to administration), but apparently, since it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, you have a problem with it. Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear honest answers. Perhaps your classmate isn't the only one with a problem.

And with regards to the contract, that was actually for your benefit in the argument. If the student agreed to something contractually clearly and reneged, then it could definitely have changed my answers. You should lose the chip on your shoulder.
 
knv2u said:
I did comment on what you did, and moreover you asked for opinions on what would be proper to do. And I gave that to you (call them out, try to work with them, etc., but not go to administration), but apparently, since it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, you have a problem with it. Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear honest answers. Perhaps your classmate isn't the only one with a problem.

And with regards to the contract, that was actually for your benefit in the argument. If the student agreed to something contractually clearly and reneged, then it could definitely have changed my answers. You should lose the chip on your shoulder.
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I think you're the only one who had issues with "the proper thing to do". I think you've misinterpreted my post and follow up responses so let me be clear in that I really don't care what your opinion is or what you're trying to argue . I've already done what I thought was the proper thing to do.

Have you read any of my replies to this thread? What makes you think I have a chip on my shoulder?
 
NontradCA said:
I think you're the only one who had issues with "the proper thing to do". I think you've misinterpreted my post and follow up responses so let me be clear in that I really don't care what your opinion is or what you're trying to argue . I've already done what I thought was the proper thing to do.

Have you read any of my replies to this thread? What makes you think I have a chip on my shoulder?
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Then why waste everyone's time and post this thread? It really serves no purpose then.

And I have read your replies, and if you notice, I did not criticize you for contacting the student. I think your original course of action was reasonable. But you mentioned a classmate going to administration and other students chimed in providing that they would do the same. I was touching upon why this was a bad idea (in my opinion), and why I wouldn't handle it that way which was perfectly relevant to the instant thread. I'm not sure why that part was so unclear to you. And then when other posters commented/responded, I responded to those responses. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

And the comment about the chip is because of the tone of your prose as directed towards me and the others. And there is no "hyperbolic bs" in my post. I think perhaps you should look up the word "hyperbolic." There is nothing in my post making something sound worse or more extreme than what it really is. The problem with this thread (and this isn't targeted at you specifically) is that everyone is making knee jerk, emotional reactions and failing to appreciate the logical consequences of what has been suggested.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread (or at least your comments).
 
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knv2u said:
Then why waste everyone's time and post this thread? It really serves no purpose then.

And I have read your replies, and if you notice, I did not criticize you for contacting the student. I think your original course of action was reasonable. But you mentioned a classmate going to administration and other students chimed in providing that they would do the same. I was touching upon why this was a bad idea (in my opinion), and why I wouldn't handle it that way which was perfectly relevant to the instant thread. I'm not sure why that part was so unclear to you. And then when other posters commented/responded, I responded to those responses. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

And the comment about the chip is because of the tone of your prose as directed towards me and the others. And there is no "hyperbolic bs" in my post. I think perhaps you should look up the word "hyperbolic." There is nothing in my post making something sound worse or more extreme than what it really is. The problem with this thread (and this isn't targeted at you specifically) is that everyone is making knee jerk, emotional reactions and failing to appreciate the logical consequences of what has been suggested.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.
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I made this thread to get some other views as my classmates had different views of this, and wanted to see where they stand. This is an interesting topic because the person will be punished in some way and people should be reminded of instances like this when they're on social media. I can't take you seriously because you're posting things about 1st amendment rights and all that other bs, when not to mention the fact that

-What the school's administration does is way over our heads and hasn't even been decided
-Schools have written into acceptances and secondaries their right to not matriculate an applicant
-It's medical school and with being in it and a physician you are opening yourself up to public scrutiny
 
Patassa said:
So you've diverted to the parallel to not deal with the rest of the points. Fair enough.
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I went back and read because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but instead I see a long post about faux racism as if adcom or a reasonable person can't differentiate. I don't know if you've been around *****s all your life which makes you think you're insightful, but the truth is that this profession is full of smarter people than you who would have thought that point through and would act fairly.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
I went back and read because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but instead I see a long post about faux racism as if adcom or a reasonable person can't differentiate. I don't know if you've been around *****s all your life which makes you think you're insightful, but the truth is that this profession is full of smarter people than you who would have thought that point through and would act fairly.
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There was one example about what I consider to be faux racism, raised to make a larger point. A far cry from "all I see is a long post about faux racism"

In other words you either have a short attention span, poor reading comprehension, or your bias is so strong that you can't understand view points that disagree with yours. Got it.


You are purposely misrepresenting my points so as not to deal with them, it seems.
 
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Frankly, I am stunned and disappointed this thread has turned into a bloodbath. I am also disturbed by the misuse of the notion of freedom of speech. The issue here is cyberbullying which is a major social problem now. Posting a hate message targeting a group of people is cyberbullying and the perpetrator must be sanctioned. Just because you get accepted doesn't grant you the right to be abusive to others. The person who reported the adcoms of this did the right thing. We don't want these people in medicine where they can harm those who truly seek help
 
Agent B said:
Frankly, I am stunned and disappointed this thread has turned into a bloodbath. I am also disturbed by the misuse of the notion of freedom of speech. The issue here is cyberbullying which is a major social problem now. Posting a hate message targeting a group of people is cyberbullying and the perpetrator must be sanctioned. Just because you get accepted doesn't grant you the right to be abusive to others. The person who reported the adcoms of this did the right thing. We don't want these people in medicine where they can harm those who truly seek help
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Many here have made clear their utter disdain for racists in many different ways. Most seem to agree that they deserve some type of harsh punishment for racist comments.


How will they treat their racist patients?
 
Patassa said:
Many here have made clear their utter disdain for racists in many different ways. Most seem to agree that they deserve some time of harsh punishment for racist comments.


How will they treat their racist patients?
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Just because some patients are ignorant and racist doesn't justify doctors/nurses etc. being racist. If a patient refuses to accept treatment based on my race, they are welcome to look for treatment somewhere else
 
Patassa said:
Many here have made clear their utter disdain for racists in many different ways. Most seem to agree that they deserve some time of harsh punishment for racist comments.


How will they treat their racist patients?
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Bolus of Pentobarbital of course. Duh.

meme-lol_00244983.jpg
 
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Patassa said:
Many here have made clear their utter disdain for racists in many different ways. Most seem to agree that they deserve some time of harsh punishment for racist comments.


How will they treat their racist patients?
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The same way I'd treat people who rape children: with the best of my medical care.

I'd be more interested to see how my racist patient would treat me as a Black doctor.
 
Patassa said:
There was one example about what I consider to be faux racism, raised to make a larger point. A far cry from "all I see is a long post about faux racism"

In other words you either have a short attention span, poor reading comprehension, or your bias is so strong that you can't understand view points that disagree with yours. Got it.


You are purposely misrepresenting my points so as not to deal with them, it seems.
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Because you don't have any points. You have hyperbole and then want to play the switcheroo game and say I'm the intolerant one for not wanting a racist in my class. That somehow we should gamble with people's health by putting a racist in charge of their care and changing him is somehow other people's responsibility. I'm down to talk to this guy, but I'm not down to give him a spot in a life or death profession because somehow your warped mind thinks that makes us the intolerant ones.
 
Agent B said:
Frankly, I am stunned and disappointed this thread has turned into a bloodbath. I am also disturbed by the misuse of the notion of freedom of speech. The issue here is cyberbullying which is a major social problem now. Posting a hate message targeting a group of people is cyberbullying and the perpetrator must be sanctioned. Just because you get accepted doesn't grant you the right to be abusive to others. The person who reported the adcoms of this did the right thing. We don't want these people in medicine where they can harm those who truly seek help
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I am too Agent B. This age's focus on bullying has brought out parties who either believe words have meaning and you should be mindful of what you say and those who think the bullied need to just toughen up. You don't have to say nice things to people. But you sure as hell don't have to say hurtful ones either.

I don't know, it's difficult because people are afraid of the word racist. As in, the jokes they laugh about with their friends behind my Black back aren't 'really' racist because they don't plan to hang me from a tree. But when people don't want to work with me in class because they believe I have nothing to contribute or parents who don't want me in their son's class because I'll make him "talk ghetto", really, ****ing, sucks.
 
winterchill said:
The same way I'd treat people who rape children: with the best of my medical care.

I'd be more interested to see how my racist patient would treat me as a Black doctor.
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winterchill said:
I am too Agent B. This age's focus on bullying has brought out parties who either believe words have meaning and you should be mindful of what you say and those who think the bullied need to just toughen up. You don't have to say nice things to people. But you sure as hell don't have to say hurtful ones either.

I don't know, it's difficult because people are afraid of the word racist. As in, the jokes they laugh about with their friends behind my Black back aren't 'really' racist because they don't plan to hang me from a tree. But when people don't want to work with me in class because they believe I have nothing to contribute or parents who don't want me in their son's class because I'll make him "talk ghetto", really, *******, sucks.
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Most people have a prejudice - you think you're the only one who has been talked about behind your back? Nuh uh, honey. I'm a Hispanic woman from LA. You know how much sh**I got just for doing well in school?

We can't fix people's prejudices. What we can do is treat their medical issues to the best of our ability.
 
Re: "How would you have handled this?".....Impossible to say without knowing the exact comment. The level of hatred is really what would be the deciding factor for me. If it's an ignorant offhand comment, I'd probably just make a mental note to avoid the guy. If it's overtly hateful or mean-spirited, I'd be more confrontational.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Because you don't have any points. You have hyperbole and then want to play the switcheroo game and say I'm the intolerant one for not wanting a racist in my class. That somehow we should gamble with people's health by putting a racist in charge of their care and changing him is somehow other people's responsibility. I'm down to talk to this guy, but I'm not down to give him a spot in a life or death profession because somehow your warped mind thinks that makes us the intolerant ones.
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Speaking of hyperbole, add some straw men, and emotional discharge and we what you just left us.
 
Member10billion said:
Most people have a prejudice - you think you're the only one who has been talked about behind your back? Nuh uh, honey. I'm a Hispanic woman from LA. You know how much sh**I got just for doing well in school?

We can't fix people's prejudices. What we can do is treat their medical issues to the best of our ability.
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Haha. I'm sure you did. And congrats for making it through. (Btw, my mom was Panamanian.)

So we agree. But I think the issue is the freedom of prejudiced speech. Sure you have the freedom of speech but should it come with consequences? Should I have the right to make a racist comment to a 5 year old?
 
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