HPSP for flight surgeon (thinking Navy) - some questions

[chasm-e-baddoor]

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Hello,

I am currently a 1st year medical student (started in 8/13)

I have made the decision to pursue a career in the military, probably the Navy, as a flight surgeon and subsequently try for a residency in air and space.

I have some questions, though.

1) How is the HPSP as a pathway to become a flight surgeon in the navy?

2) Am I too late to apply for a 3-year HPSP deal at this point? hell, is it possible that the military would give me a 4-year scholarship at this point in time in my medical schooling if i agree to commit to more years of service?

3) I'm slightly confused as to the training flight surgeons get. Is the training only 1 year internship + the 6 month flight surgery training course? If so, what happens to a full residency? or is that supposed to be done after i leave the armed services?

4) If flight surgeons must complete a conventional residency first, is a residency in emergency medicine out of the picture?

4) How does the Residency in Aerospace Medicine fit into the whole HPSP flight surgeon route? My dad is also a physician, and he applied to some aerospace medicine residency programs when he came to this country and said that it was very competitive, at least for foreign civilians lol. What about for flight surgeons in the service though? Any preferences given there? Do I apply for it after I finish tour as a flight surgeon?

5) How are the qualities of the military residencies/training for flight surgeons - will I be able to competently practice outside if i decide to leave the Navy? I'm pretty sure that all of the military residencies are ACGME accredited right. edit: I'm not trying to knock military residencies, i just want to make sure that I can still be the doctor i set out to be

6) I understand there is another program called the FAP, in which you commit to the military after you graduate medical school and before you start residency. Does this program make more sense than the HPSP, for a person like me who who is set on trying for the navy. I also understand that the FAP residents get paid a lot of money - residency salary + FAP salaries. Do HPSP residents get paid like this/similar to this (if not, then I might consider FAP )

thank you for any help/info

edit 2: I'd like to ask one more question that probably doesnt apply much to my situation - I once read an article about a flight surgeon in the air national guard of virginia. He logged 1000 hours as the pilot of either an F-16 or F-18.....is this common in the national guard (being doctor and rated pilot qualified to fly a fighter of all things). If so, is there any good route to become one lol.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

Most if not all your questions can be answered by doing a proper search on this site, regarding HPSP, Flight Surgeon tours, and a Residency in Aerospace Medicine.

I'll bite on #1 though; I don't know how competitive FS training has become, but provided you meet the physical requirements and successfully complete about 1/3 of your intern year, which is when the application will be due, you will have a decent chance at being selected.

I would contact a recruiter about #2 but get others' input on your other questions before you decide HPSP is right for you.

Best of luck.

Thank you very much for the response,

I have spent several hours today on this great site + google regarding HPSP, military medicine, etc; but I suppose I am a poor user of forums, particularly when it comes to searches (or maybe this whole thing is a bit confusing for me lol). I did find tons of information here - however, a lot of it was from years ago and/or non-specific when it came to these questions (particularly 4-7). I'm guessing, based on your response, that flight surgeons enter flight surgeon training right after internship (so 1 year internship + 6 month training is the route). Would you happen to know what this means for conventional/regular residency - I am pretty sure the flight surgeon course is not enough to practice as a board certified physician in the civilian world. I am hoping to enter the RAM program, but from what Ive read, I shouldnt count anything guaranteed in the military.

I have checked out the physical requirements on the Navy's site, and I am almost certain I am clear for Class II pilot (and even Class I pilot)

 

[Cooperd0g]

Hello,

I am currently a 1st year medical student (started in 8/13)

I have made the decision to pursue a career in the military, probably the Navy, as a flight surgeon and subsequently try for a residency in air and space.

I have some questions, though.

1) How is the HPSP as a pathway to become a flight surgeon in the navy?

Do not make the decision to join the military lightly. However, if you really want to be in the military then it isn't a bad idea to let them pay for school also. The basic path towards becoming a flight surgeon is to finish med school, do an internship, apply for flight med during your internship, get selected, spends 6 months in flight doc training (Navy) and then do a flight doc tour or two. They are generally 2-3 years long. If you are tired of the military after your HPSP commitment is up you can then apply for civilian residency.

2) Am I too late to apply for a 3-year HPSP deal at this point? hell, is it possible that the military would give me a 4-year scholarship at this point in time in my medical schooling if i agree to commit to more years of service?

I don't know this.

3) I'm slightly confused as to the training flight surgeons get. Is the training only 1 year internship + the 6 month flight surgery training course? If so, what happens to a full residency? or is that supposed to be done after i leave the armed services?

Yes. If you try to do a full residency the options to become a flight doc immediately after are generally limited to the RAM and FM. You can always do the internship, flight doc, then finish residency and try to go back to flight doc again. Just about all residencies require a payback tour in that specialty before you can go operational, but RAM and FM will let you go right to flight doc.

4) If flight surgeons must complete a conventional residency first, is a residency in emergency medicine out of the picture?

They don't have to. EM is not out, but you'll have to do a tour as an EM doc after residency before you can go to a flight doc tour.

4) How does the Residency in Aerospace Medicine fit into the whole HPSP flight surgeon route? My dad is also a physician, and he applied to some aerospace medicine residency programs when he came to this country and said that it was very competitive, at least for foreign civilians lol. What about for flight surgeons in the service though? Any preferences given there? Do I apply for it after I finish tour as a flight surgeon?

RAM is an option that can get you BE/BC in PrevMed and/or OccMed. To my limited knowledge is isn't very competitive. They generally give preference to people who were previous flight docs and/or prior navy pilots. Since it doesn't sound like you are a prior pilot you would likely do internship, flight doc, then RAM if you still wanted that.

5) How are the qualities of the military residencies/training for flight surgeons - will I be able to competently practice outside if i decide to leave the Navy? I'm pretty sure that all of the military residencies are ACGME accredited right. edit: I'm not trying to knock military residencies, i just want to make sure that I can still be the doctor i set out to be.

Flight surgeon training does not get you any capability for board certification. Being a basic flight doc can be done with just an internship and a state license. Your job options outside of the military will be limited. Your promotion potention within the military will also be limited without board certification. All military residencies are ACGME. See above responses regarding flight doc and finishing residencies.

6) I understand there is another program called the FAP, in which you commit to the military after you graduate medical school and before you start residency. Does this program make more sense than the HPSP, for a person like me who who is set on trying for the navy. I also understand that the FAP residents get paid a lot of money - residency salary + FAP salaries. Do HPSP residents get paid like this/similar to this (if not, then I might consider FAP ).

I'm not super knowledgable on FAP so I'm not sure if it makes more sense for you or not. You may be able to do a civilian residency via FAP and then come in directly to be a flight doc, but I'm not sure. If you want to be a flight doc before finishing residency, then HPSP would be a better option.

edit 2: I'd like to ask one more question that probably doesnt apply much to my situation - I once read an article about a flight surgeon in the air national guard of virginia. He logged 1000 hours as the pilot of either an F-16 or F-18.....is this common in the national guard (being doctor and rated pilot qualified to fly a fighter of all things). If so, is there any good route to become one lol.

It is very uncommon. Both the Navy and the Air Force have programs called Aeromedical Dual Designator where you are both a physican and a rated pilot. This is not the norm as flight docs are not qualified military pilots so they can not log the flight time as pilots. The Navy will allow any prior Navy pilot to become a dual designator, but obviously the success of being able to fly and still be the doc depend on your training choices. You aren't going to be flying as an orthopedic surgeon so you effectivly would kill your pilot qual. Residencies that are more compatible with being a flight doc like FM, EM, Peds, IM increase the chances of being able to do the program as it is designed. The Navy no longer accepts docs into flight training for the program. The regular AF typically one has one dual designator per aircraft platform and they generally work in the test community to my knowledge, but I'm not an expert on their program. I know very little of the possibilities in the Guard. Most likely the person you heard about was an Air Force pilot who then went to med school and subsequently got into a Guard unit and said "hey, I can fill 2 billets for you." Not at all typical.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

This is great info

Do not make the decision to join the military lightly. However, if you really want to be in the military then it isn't a bad idea to let them pay for school also. The basic path towards becoming a flight surgeon is to finish med school, do an internship, apply for flight med during your internship, get selected, spends 6 months in flight doc training (Navy) and then do a flight doc tour or two. They are generally 2-3 years long. If you are tired of the military after your HPSP commitment is up you can then apply for civilian residency.

I have always had serving in the military in the back of my head. In fact, my Plan B, in case i couldnt get into medical school ,was to enter the Warrant Officer Flight Training program that the Army has. I understand that the financial benefits could be a lot less (but hey, being debt-free is a great thing by itself), and that there isnt as much autonomy , but that's not what joining the military is for, in my opinion. Military is also not for not being deployed lol

Yes. If you try to do a full residency the options to become a flight doc immediately after are generally limited to the RAM and FM. You can always do the internship, flight doc, then finish residency and try to go back to flight doc again. Just about all residencies require a payback tour in that specialty before you can go operational, but RAM and FM will let you go right to flight doc.

What is exactly meant by operational? Does "operational" encompass flight surgeon, dive medical officer, battalion surgereon, general medical officer? Does payback tour mean working as a doctor (in that specialty) on a military instillation/ship? Can a tour as an emergency doc include something like deploying to one of those trauma centers in Afghanistan?

They don't have to. EM is not out, but you'll have to do a tour as an EM doc after residency before you can go to a flight doc tour.

RAM is an option that can get you BE/BC in PrevMed and/or OccMed. To my limited knowledge is isn't very competitive. They generally give preference to people who were previous flight docs and/or prior navy pilots. Since it doesn't sound like you are a prior pilot you would likely do internship, flight doc, then RAM if you still wanted that.

yup, not a prior pilot. Maybe that's what i should have done though lol

Flight surgeon training does not get you any capability for board certification. Being a basic flight doc can be done with just an internship and a state license. Your job options outside of the military will be limited. Your promotion potention within the military will also be limited without board certification. All military residencies are ACGME. See above responses regarding flight doc and finishing residencies.

Got it

I'm not super knowledgable on FAP so I'm not sure if it makes more sense for you or not. You may be able to do a civilian residency via FAP and then come in directly to be a flight doc, but I'm not sure. If you want to be a flight doc before finishing residency, then HPSP would be a better option.

I don't especially want to become a flight doc before residency (unless there is a benefit to it - maybe ill find residency "easier"?). I will look into it more though.

It is very uncommon. Both the Navy and the Air Force have programs called Aeromedical Dual Designator where you are both a physican and a rated pilot. This is not the norm as flight docs are not qualified military pilots so they can not log the flight time as pilots. The Navy will allow any prior Navy pilot to become a dual designator, but obviously the success of being able to fly and still be the doc depend on your training choices. You aren't going to be flying as an orthopedic surgeon so you effectivly would kill your pilot qual. Residencies that are more compatible with being a flight doc like FM, EM, Peds, IM increase the chances of being able to do the program as it is designed. The Navy no longer accepts docs into flight training for the program. The regular AF typically one has one dual designator per aircraft platform and they generally work in the test community to my knowledge, but I'm not an expert on their program. I know very little of the possibilities in the Guard. Most likely the person you heard about was an Air Force pilot who then went to med school and subsequently got into a Guard unit and said "hey, I can fill 2 billets for you." Not at all typical.

This is what I figured. Doesnt make sense that the military would invest so much in a doctor just to have to invest again so that he could fly a bit.

Thank you very much for the information. cleared up a lot of things particularly regarding residency pathways/tours

 

[Cooperd0g]

What is exactly meant by operational? Does "operational" encompass flight surgeon, dive medical officer, battalion surgereon, general medical officer?

Yes

Does payback tour mean working as a doctor (in that specialty) on a military instillation/ship?

Yes

Can a tour as an emergency doc include something like deploying to one of those trauma centers in Afghanistan?

Yes

 

[HaYn04]

I'm a current MS1 in the HPSP. You would only be able to apply for the 3 year HPSP at this point especially since you're more than half way through your first year. It takes months for your paperwork to be complete and being selected by the board.
The following link outlines the whole Navy Aerospace Residency Program that takes place in Pensacola-
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/Pages/Department33AerospaceMedicineResidency.aspx

Best of luck!

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

I'm a current MS1 in the HPSP. You would only be able to apply for the 3 year HPSP at this point especially since you're more than half way through your first year. It takes months for your paperwork to be complete and being selected by the board.
The following link outlines the whole Navy Aerospace Residency Program that takes place in Pensacola-
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/Pages/Department33AerospaceMedicineResidency.aspx

Best of luck!

Thank you very much for the information

that's a bit of a bummer regarding the length of scholarship.....but, on the same site that you linked, i found the following:

"The student’s benefit start date, determines the initial semester/term for which tuition will be paid by the Navy. If the benefit start date is in the middle of a semester/term, the Navy will pay the tuition for the entire semester/term. If a student paid the tuition for the semester/term prior to entering the HPSP/FAP program, the Navy will pay the school for the tuition for that semester/term. "

Does this mean that they can pay for any semester/term prior to entering the HPSP program if you commit to more years?

I will be going to the recruiter's office this tuesday after my exam (or maybe friday if the weather allows) so i can even hope for a 3 year scholarship at the very least

 

[HaYn04]

Unless you can get a benefit start date that occurs before the end of this semester, then you would be applying for a 3 year scholarship. You may come real close with the timeline considering the time it takes to complete all the paperwork, dealing with any possible waivers, getting your application before a board for an acceptance that meets monthly (may meet more frequently during certain times of the year), and having the possibility of dealing with a recruiter that doesn't want to work at the pace you want them to. I am certain they would not pay for your first year if you end up getting a benefit start date in your second year. Your commitment to the military in years will coincide with the amount of years in scholarship. Definitely, verify this with a recruiter and be up front with them to see if its even a possibility for them to make a 4 year scholarship happen. If you find a recruiter that is willing to assist then be ready for a brutal pace in order to make things happen in a relatively aggressive timeline, barring you don't run into any setbacks along the way.