HS doesnt matter, specific college doesnt matter...

[Lil Mick]

Graduate courses are generally harder than undergraduate courses, and, from input I've gotten from friends at other schools, some majors tend to be rigorous regardless of the school (engineering, physics, mathematics). I'm not sure how they would determine which courses in a department are more difficult than the others (save graduate courses), though...

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[Terpskins99]

Student A - Northwestern University (I know not an IVY)
3.2 GPA / 3.8 Math Science GPA, President of student body association, has bench research in summers and two publications. Volunteers with inner city chicago youths. Excellent letters of recommendation. MCAT 34. Great interview.

Student B - Cleveland State University (I know not an IVY)
3.4 GPA / 3.8 Math Science GPA, President of student body association, has bench research in summers and two publications. Volunteers with inner city cleveland youths. Excellent letters of recommendations. MCAT 34. Great interview.

How would you rank these individuals?

I'll respond with a question: how the heck did they average a 3.2 or 3.4 GPA overall even with a 3.8 Math Science GPA? Probably by getting all B's plus a couple of C's and potential D's in their non-science classes.

I think we'll all agree that its absolutely true that getting higher grades in a better school is tougher than at a lower name school. The real question is, how much tougher? And how much weight do the adcoms put into it.

You keep coming up with comparisons of relatively close numbers (3.2 vs 3.4 gpa? seriously?) between schools that are infinitely far apart with regard to reputation. What we're talking about is something more akin to the difference between a 3.3 GPA from the Ivy versus a 3.7-3.9 GPA from the public state school. Because I'd argue that it is just as difficult to pull off the 3.3. gpa at the Ultracompetitive Ivy (whose grades are weighted on a bell curve against likewise ultracompetitive fellow ivy students) as it is to pull the 3.8 gpa at Whatever State College. But to the ad-com, numbers are numbers and that 3.8 sure looks a lot more attractive than the 3.3.

 

[somedude14]

yes, saying high school grades do not matter at all is taking it too far. good grades in high school can lead to a better chance of getting into a better college which can lead to a better chance of acceptance of grad/med school.

BUT, that is certainly not always the case. there are plenty of students who do well in HS and terrible in college and likewise plenty of do terrible in HS and well in college. therefore, arguing about the relevance of HS grades and college prestige is pretty superfluous.

you are still growing up in college but especially in high school. i know i wasn't mature in high school and spent too much time getting in trouble and never studied or did my homework. despite getting mediocre grades i got into a decent school and have done very well here. GPA is only one part of one's success in college. for me, i've been involved in a host of research projects and great internship experiences. now, i'm applying to doctorate programs in cognitive neuroscience.

long story short: if you knew me in high school, you would think i would be working a minimum wage job somewhere, on drugs, and/or in jail. however, i'm planning for a future that many regard as "successful" like many preppy 4.0 high schoolers but i've had a much more colorful background from which i have learned from. it doesn't matter where you come from, as long as you mature in time to achieve your dreams.

 

[gettheleadout]

34 MCAT and 3.2/3.4 GPA are both below to well below average for my med school. Neither applicant would receive an interview.

lol

Still waiting for TL's response to my post.

 

[Venko]

ThymeLess, why are we to believe that what you say about a 3.0 at any Ivy is true everywhere? Despite your claim otherwise, it IS an anecdote where n=1, because you have served on far less admissions committees than there are med schools in the country. I'd be surprised if you'd been on them at multiple schools at all, but even so, 2 or 3 schools having that biased view in favor of Ivies isn't surprising. The point is there is no reason to think this widely held among schools.

Here's my similar n=1 anecdote: My university is a typical flagship state university, tier 1, football giant, whatever you want to call it, respectable institution, but by no means thought of as a powerhouse of knowledge. It wouldn't stand out academically from anyone else in our football conference, region, or the country in general. You claim that high GPA's at less than famous schools raise questions of maxed potential vs. maxed their school, but again, you don't represent the views of any considerable fraction of the medical schools in the country, and definitely not those of the Ivies. Over the past decade, my University has had various students go to Harvard, Hopkins, and other top med schools. I have no doubt that a high GPA from my school would have nothing but positive effect on my application.

Edit: If the issue is about lower "tier" (as defined by USNWR) schools causing a problem, that's different, and I would recommend people try to go to a "better" school (if only for the increased opportunities to be involved, likely higher endowment and chance for scholarships, opportunities for research if that's what you want, etc...) But the idea that there is this huge chasm between Ivy undergrads and the rest of the first tier is really exaggerated.

you mentioned you were waiting for my comments, I apologize, I didn't see any definite questions, but here are my thoughts on your post:

1. Regarding "n" values....when sitting on an adcom you partake in review of hundreds of applications...thus n=hundreds, but yes as you say specific to one school. Add on to that the fact that I too have many "I know a guy" stories having gone through this entire process and mentored many others. I appreciate your proposal that because my adcom experience is with one medical school and one residency that it represents n=1 experience. I would disagree, or contend that your story would then equal 0.001 of an n. This is not meant to be mean, just to provide perspective....

2. I think you are right that my wording in one of my original post suggested that only benefit is awarded to true IVY schools. When I wrote the post, I was emphasizing that UIC is not Ivy etc, but you're right the point is meant to be a "higher ranked school" will gain benefit points over a "lesser ranked" school.

3. Also, of course you are right, a high GPA anywhere is better than graduating with a lower GPA at the same somewhere (assuming the coursework is similar).

I am not sure if these were the issues you wished for me to comment upon, I apologize for not directly commenting before. I hope this helps.

TL

 

[Venko]

34 MCAT and 3.2/3.4 GPA are both below to well below average for my med school. Neither applicant would receive an interview.

I doubt either of them would receive an interview at mine, either, but I'm guessing that those scores would be good enough for some DO or MD schools... I'd suggest going to a less rigorous school if someone would enough up with that sort of a GPA at a more competitive institution, though. A 3.7 and a 34 from a state school would look better than a 3.2 and a 34 from Northwestern...

You could be right that these students would not get an interview at your school. It would depend on the competition during that year and at your school.

If you see this reference below and keep in mind these numbers reflect medians (therefore 49% are below or equal to these numbers) and that these are for only those actually admitted (far more were interviewed), you can see that it is not implausible to think that these two hypothetical students would be debated by an "adcom" at some schools and offered an interview by some schools..

The decision to offer an interview is easy at the top of the list, relatively easy in the middle, but only gets difficult at the bottom. Also, it is at the bottom, where the school that a student attended and achieved becomes more important, because committee members are looking to trying not to miss anyone who will be the next great physician and presently there is no exact science to do it. Committees do the best they can with the information available and when the decisions are hard, there is benefit applied to the better school when two students are fighting for an interview spot.

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

TL

EDIT: I also easily found this, but I am not sure where the data comes from.... http://www.oswego.edu/academics/col...ckenzie/advising/Mean MCAT and GPA Scores.pdf

 

[Venko]

yes, saying high school grades do not matter at all is taking it too far. good grades in high school can lead to a better chance of getting into a better college which can lead to a better chance of acceptance of grad/med school.

BUT, that is certainly not always the case. there are plenty of students who do well in HS and terrible in college and likewise plenty of do terrible in HS and well in college. therefore, arguing about the relevance of HS grades and college prestige is pretty superfluous.

you are still growing up in college but especially in high school. i know i wasn't mature in high school and spent too much time getting in trouble and never studied or did my homework. despite getting mediocre grades i got into a decent school and have done very well here. GPA is only one part of one's success in college. for me, i've been involved in a host of research projects and great internship experiences. now, i'm applying to doctorate programs in cognitive neuroscience.

long story short: if you knew me in high school, you would think i would be working a minimum wage job somewhere, on drugs, and/or in jail. however, i'm planning for a future that many regard as "successful" like many preppy 4.0 high schoolers but i've had a much more colorful background from which i have learned from. it doesn't matter where you come from, as long as you mature in time to achieve your dreams.

1. You're right, its not an always true, its generally true

2. Definitely, no one piece (GPA, MCAT etc.) is the be all end all for selection. Everyone excels in some areas and lacks in others. Every little piece matters that much more when the whole application is not stellar. Those that have stellar packets are not difficult for an adcom to consider, its those who have great parts and weak parts where things get difficult.

3. Congratulations on your success and good luck in your career!

 

[avatarftw]

A 34 MCAT?! You must be at Washington, which has an MCAT average of 35 or so, right? There are only a few schools that average 34 or above...

34 MCAT and 3.2/3.4 GPA are both below to well below average for my med school. Neither applicant would receive an interview.

 

[gettheleadout]

you mentioned you were waiting for my comments, I apologize, I didn't see any definite questions, but here are my thoughts on your post:

1. Regarding "n" values....when sitting on an adcom you partake in review of hundreds of applications...thus n=hundreds, but yes as you say specific to one school. Add on to that the fact that I too have many "I know a guy" stories having gone through this entire process and mentored many others. I appreciate your proposal that because my adcom experience is with one medical school and one residency that it represents n=1 experience. I would disagree, or contend that your story would then equal 0.001 of an n. This is not meant to be mean, just to provide perspective....

Without going further into the statistical terminology issue here, my point is that your position and perspective is one of a a single adcom at a single school in the country. Staying away from "things that other people have said" and focusing on first-hand experience, we have information from you about the selection process from one school. We have no reason to believe that the things valued by your one school, which seem to be ranked strangely, are universally true, especially when other adcom members on here disagree with the maxims of your adcom.

2. I think you are right that my wording in one of my original post suggested that only benefit is awarded to true IVY schools. When I wrote the post, I was emphasizing that UIC is not Ivy etc, but you're right the point is meant to be a "higher ranked school" will gain benefit points over a "lesser ranked" school.

Yes, that makes more sense. It is often debated on SDN how much weight this carries, and it probably does vary from school to school and situation, but the point is that we have no reason to believe that a 3.0 even from Princeton (grade deflation, prestigious school) would have a better chance then a higher 3.X from random top 100 or top 200 school, other than your word that it matters at your school specifically.

3. Also, of course you are right, a high GPA anywhere is better than graduating with a lower GPA at the same somewhere (assuming the coursework is similar).

I am not sure if these were the issues you wished for me to comment upon, I apologize for not directly commenting before. I hope this helps.

TL

A 34 MCAT?! You must be at Washington, which has an MCAT average of 35 or so, right? There are only a few schools that average 34 or above...

37 for WashU, but I think the point Neuronix was making is that the super low GPA (relative to his school's average) combined with a 34 MCAT (35+ is often recommended for competitiveness for top programs, 35 is Harvard/Yale's average, as well as others) equates to a sub-par application numbers-wise.

 

[Neuronix]

Exactly. I mean we sometimes forgive a lower than average GPA if balanced by an above average MCAT (both numbers relative to the school) or vice versa. But when both are below average, especially if one is far below average, it's rare for that person to receive an interview. It helps if one is URM or did something amazingly superstar as an extracirricular. And yes, our matriculated average is consistently 35+, sometimes 36+.

 

[Venko]

especially when other adcom members on here disagree with the maxims of your adcom.

Maybe I missed, it...where are the other adcom members?

TL

 

[MilkmanAl]

In other forums over the past few years.

 

[45408]

34 MCAT and 3.2/3.4 GPA are both below to well below average for my med school. Neither applicant would receive an interview.

Every US MD school in the country has students with an MCAT at or below 34.

 

[45408]

Maybe I missed, it...where are the other adcom members?

TL

I interviewed plenty of med school applicants and was privy to information from our admissions personnel that I'm not allowed to share, and I can say that I was never told of any of the policies like you're describing (a lower GPA at certain schools have multipliers for them).

SDN has at least one active adcom member, a residency program director, and a director of admissions.

 

[Neuronix]

Every US MD school in the country has students with an MCAT at or below 34.

Ok, reread this post: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10534441&postcount=60

 

[Lil Mick]

Exactly. I mean we sometimes forgive a lower than average GPA if balanced by an above average MCAT (both numbers relative to the school) or vice versa. But when both are below average, especially if one is far below average, it's rare for that person to receive an interview. It helps if one is URM or did something amazingly superstar as an extracirricular. And yes, our matriculated average is consistently 35+, sometimes 36+.

This is the case at my school, as well. I think MD/PhD programs are a little bit more forgiving of a low MCAT or a low GPA than straight MD programs provided someone has amazing research experience (1st author publication); however, with both below the program average (very low for the gpa), someone would need quite a bit more research, varsity athletics, URM status...