Hypothetical - would you do this?

[cozycleo]

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This is totally NOT something I am considering!

Would you let a human anesthesiologist put down an animal for you rather than taking it to a vet to be euthanized?

 

[nyanko]

Disregarding legality and the implications for the anesthesiologist him/herself, it would depend on the situation, I think. I don't think that an anesthesiologist would necessarily have an issue with the actual procedure of injection or even determining the dose (caveat: as long as they have a vet. pharmacology book handy). However, determination of whether euthanasia is necessarily indicated for a particular animal falls squarely outside of the realm of a human doctor (of any sort!) and his/her training/qualifications.

I think those two issues need to be separated out, and it's really hard to have a discussion about euthanasia when you separate them.

 

[cozycleo]

I should be more specific. We're talking about a case where a person knows that the animal needs to be put down, but rather than taking it to a vet, uses a friend/relative who happens to be an anesthesiologist.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Not a good idea....you need to know how to read all of the signs (i.e., sedate animal first, is the animal sedate enough to be given the drug? How do they know? if they're wrong, animal flips out and maybe only gets half the dose in, slow painful death follows)

Plus, how would they acquire the correct drug? Those are controlled things, and you need a reason to get it. If they lie, that's illegal. If they say it's for an animal, that's outside of their license's spectrum.

However, determination of whether euthanasia is necessarily indicated for a particular animal falls squarely outside of the realm of a human doctor (of any sort!) and his/her training/qualifications

Very true also.

 

[No Imagination]

[However, determination of whether euthanasia is necessarily indicated for a particular animal falls squarely outside of the realm of a human doctor (of any sort!) and his/her training/qualifications.

I dunno. I think a doctors training is certainly up to the task of evaluating a situation, and doing the research to make an informed decision.

To or Not to Euthanize an animal is almost always somewhat subjective. As a student, taken the time to look at a CBC, chem panel, clinical signs, age, quality of life factors, [protein/enzyme]... I am certain I could make a rationale decision. I think an MD would be better then I.

Or course, there are always questionable, non-obvious decisions... but having a DVM/VMD after your name wouldn't necessarily make the non-obvious decisions obvious. - Great, now I'm confused.

Another interesting question, since we are talking about the hypothetical…

An old time vet(erinarian) once told me that in WWII, and in the military, many vets served as impromptu MD's. He said that there are rules still on the books that allow, in certain times and situations, for vets to work on those ‘Human Primates". Anyone ever hear of this? What do you think of it?

 

[sumstorm]

I worked with a vet in another country who routinely stitched up and treated the residents of remote villages. He provided the only medical care those individuals would recieve in thier lifetime. Right, wrong, or necessary? I have no idea if it was legal or not there, or whether ethics are altered by circumstance.

In some states euthanasia by projectile (in other words, shooting an animal) is legal, as are gas chambers.

Many vets have a 'no questions' policy about euthanizing personal pets (I read an article last month that quoted either 40 or 60% of companion animal vets will euthanize regardless of owner's reason...can't remember the number or magazine off the top of my head, but it was at the clinic I work at so I would assume a common companion animal vet publication.)

So, my personal answer would be that it really depends on circumstances and situations. My preference would be a mobile vet in my own home, but that isn't an option for everyone everywhere. I do know that bringing home a 160# great dane for burial is difficult and many areas do not have mobile vets (and many vets are not insured for housecalls.)

 

[Neoformans]

The only way I can think of answering this question is: Why would anyone consider this? If it's a question of cost, the SPCA will always do humane euthanasias for free.

Otherwise sedation and euthanasia in animals can be a tricky thing sometimes, despite all the training a anesthesiologist may have on humans, if they don't have experience in sedating and euthanizing animals, it might not go as planned, surely nobody would want to put their dying pet through something as traumatic as a botched euthansia..

 

[nyanko]

The only way I can think of answering this question is: Why would anyone consider this? If it's a question of cost, the SPCA will always do humane euthanasias for free.

That's kind of why I struggle with this sort of hypothetical as well.

 

[No Imagination]

That's kind of why I struggle with this sort of hypothetical as well.

Well, IMO, the only thing advantage a veterinarian inherintly has over a MD doing the Euthanasia, is his experience in accessing whether the animal SHOULD be put down. Again, my opinion. But if its an obvious decision, ergh, i'd have no problem with letting an Anesthesiologist, or any one familar with the procedure to do it.

Hell, Nurses have been doing it to humans for years 🙂
^ was a joke!

 

[VAgirl]

Well, IMO, the only thing advantage a veterinarian inherintly has over a MD doing the Euthanasia, is his experience in accessing whether the animal SHOULD be put down.

Technically, that's entirely the decision of the client. The veterinarian can only advise.

The slight caveat to this is that the vet can refuse to put the animal down if they feel it is inappropriate (convenience euthanasia, etc.). But it doesn't change the fact that to euthanize or not euthanize a given animal it's the client's decision. They just might have to work a little to find a vet who would be willing to carry out their decision.

 

[ratbandit]

I think an anesthesiologist would be fine putting an animal down, unless it was something odd like a reptile. They are trained to anesthetize and keep alive people with all kinds of crazy metabolic issues. In the grand scheme of what they learn, euthanizing an animal is really not that complicated. Plus, shelter employees aren't veterinarians or medical doctors, and they handle euthanasias just fine most of the time.

 

[Fairyblastt]

It would depend on the animal and method of euthanasia for me... dog or cat via injection? I would prefer a vet. But we routinely euthanize chickens, quail, mice/rats (research animals) via Co2 without a vet present. And I've been doing cervical dislocation on research birds since I was in my 2nd year of undergrad...

But I have to wonder... all the injection substances are controlled, you need to keep a log etc etc, so would you be basically be asking the non-vet person to lie in the log (assuming they're not supervised by a vet)? Or would they actually write down 5mg etc for a canine euthanasia? How would their boss look at that? I think it would be illegal (or at least against clinic policy) to take those substances out of the (human) clinic to be used in a way not consistent with the care that place provides... I would regard that as kind of shady...

And yeah, I agree, it is the client who ultimately decides when it is the right time to put a pet to sleep.

Hum. These questions are fun. 😉 But now I'm thinking of all those other random 'would you or wouldn't you' interview questions...

 

[StealthDog]

The anesthesiologist is risking their license... Doesn't seem like a great position to put a friend or relative in.

 

[No Imagination]

Guys, this licensing and drug logging is a cop out of the hypothetical.

I assumed, the OP question was meant in terms of an Anastesiologists ability to do the deed.

Lets be realistic, I can just say, as an Anastesiologists, I will take the dog out back and shoot it. That does nothing for the merits of the argument (only reinforces the stereotype that anastesiologists are good shots), yet I am certain that an Anastesiologists (Damn, I hate spelling that word) is capable of doing just that.

Hypotheticals are only fun when you avoid cop outs and legalities and discuss the issue.

The anesthesiologist is risking their license... Doesn't seem like a great position to put a friend or relative in.

An anesthesiologist can't loose their license for Euthanising an animal. Euthanasia, by definition, can't be 'animal cruelty', as the name implies 'good death'. So, unless the anesthesiologist did something illegal, like robbed a liquor store on their way to euthanising the animal, I would say they were in the clear on this one.

Sorry, I am on edge. Send me my letter already

 

[StealthDog]

I don't think anyone will argue that a human anesthesiologist is incapable of euthanizing an animal, be it by lethal injection, overdose of a drug, or a bullet in the head.

But, let's look at the OP's hypothetical question:

Would you let a human anesthesiologist put down an animal for you rather than taking it to a vet to be euthanized?

I would not let an anesthesiologist put down an animal for me because, if they were to euthanize my pet in the same manner as my vet would (by lethal injection), that would constitute practicing veterinary medicine without a license. The anesthesiologist is just in the right to euthanize an animal as a veterinarian is in the right to operate on a human- which means, he's not.

This doesn't exactly sound like a third-world-country, watching an animal flail in pain, OMG WHAT WOULD YOU DO sort of scenario. This sounds like, for whatever reason, someone would rather their friend the anesthesiologist euthanize their pet rather than take it to the vet. I'd say don't risk your friend's license, and bring your pet to someone who is experienced in euthanasia and licensed to work on animals.

 

[No Imagination]

that would constitute practicing veterinary medicine without a license. The anesthesiologist is just in the right to euthanize an animal as a veterinarian is in the right to operate on a human- which means, he's not.

Is that true? Not arguing here, but I was under the impression that what constitues 'practicing', involves recieving money for payment. What can I, as a non-veterinarian, do for my friends animal for free? Obviously I can't do a lot, as I dont have access to drugs and such, but the line is certainly fuzzy.

I mean, starting with"

"Can I removes a tick?"
"Can I treat a superficial infection with anti-bacterial ointment?"
"Can I clean a wound?"
"Can I dock tails on pups?"
"Can I give vaccines?" (used to be able to buy them from Fort Dodge and a few others without a vet. license (I know rabies is different in most states, as medical records are required).
"Can I deworm?"

All those things, I believe I can do, as long as I don't claim to be a vet, and do not recieve money for doing it. Would I be practicing Veterinary Medicine without a licence?

I'm honestly asking, because while I think I know the answer, I may be wrong.

 

[StealthDog]

Not arguing here, but I was under the impression that what constitues 'practicing', involves recieving money for payment.

This varies with state, but in general, you can do whatever you want to your own pet (as long as it doesn't fall into the category of abuse). "Practicing" medicine may involve charging for a service, but it doesn't have to, depending on your state's laws. For example, a breeder can dock his own pups' tails, but once he sells a pup to friend, he is no longer allowed to because it is not his own animal.

I'd say the case with the anesthesiologist obviously crosses the line because the doctor would be using their license to obtain a controlled substance (or even a drug that must be obtained through a pharmacy) and then injecting that substance into an animal that is not their own. Even if they got the drug and then gave it to the animal's owner for her to give to her own pet, that would still be a violation because a person not licensed to practice on animals just prescribed a drug for an animal. There are grey areas, but diagnosing, operating, and prescribing medicine for animals that you don't own all clearly fall under the realm of practicing medicine.

I also don't think that just because you call it "euthanasia" means it's a "good death". Injecting a drug that should go IV extravascularly, injecting inappropriately large or small amounts of a drug, injecting an inappropriate drug for the job- all of those could make the procedure much more traumatic than it should be. Yes, an anesthesiologist is capable of doing it right, but more capable than a vet? I doubt it.

 

[No Imagination]

This varies with state, but in general, you can do whatever you want to your own pet ... but once he sells a pup to friend, he is no longer allowed to because it is not his own animal... There are grey areas

Thanks for the clarification, the laws were always a but too ambiguous for me, and as a rule, I hate ambiguity in the law, guess it will be something I will have to live with.

However, what about breeders who give there dogs vaccines? When i worked for a vet, on several occasions people would bring their puppies in, and declined the (ddp? can't remember the vaccine name, been a few years, but usually done as a series of 3? shots). Anyway, they were told to bring them back to the breeder to complete the series. This was Pa/NJ area.

Done by breeder, no vet on hand

Illegal?

 

[Fairyblastt]

No I don't think it's illegal to do (most) vaccines... I remember vaccinating some yearling heifers in lab at school... no vet on site, and I don't believe that all of the heifers were owned by the school either (though most of them probably were). But the regulating laws for livestock are sometimes different than that for companian animals...

 

[ri23]

They sell vaccinations at stores like Tractor Supply. Granted these vaccines are probably not handled/stored properly and therefore their efficacy is questionable, but owners can give them.

 

[nyanko]

It's not illegal to give vaccinations to your own pets.

Where I worked, in FL, however, health certificates were required for sale of puppies, and required a signature from a veterinarian. Most of the vets I worked with would not put vaccinations on the health certificate if they did not do the injections themselves, so the dog would be sold as "unvaccinated" as far as the law goes. The other thing is that rabies was required by law in our county, and was required to be given or supervised by a DVM, and signed off as such. So you can certainly vaccinate your own dogs, but the degree to which it's recognized varies, for whatever extent that matters by law in your area.