I am planning on specializing so PENN or Nova?

[knight09]

I got accepted to both but I am thinking long term here... I am from South Florida so I have my friends and family here and would probably have a better average at Nova. Where as UPENN I don't know any one and would probably have a lower GPA. My goal is ortho or pedo so what should I do? where should I go?

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[hellonurse]

Which of the two is cheaper for you? I think if you are smart enough to specialize, it will happen either way. I personally would go to Nova. I've been to PA, it's cold.

 

[knight09]

They are pretty much the same, Nova being 5,000 cheaper. I just don't know what to do because I don't want to regret anything down the road.

 

[cybermech]

If you want to have a chance to do a killer research project (which tend to look good on your resume), Penn's the place to go. That's about as far as I'd venture to say.

 

[Contach]

You are making an assumption that I don't know is entirely correct. You say that you think your GPA will be lower at UPenn because, I gather, you are thinking that since there is a higher calibre of students at UPenn (based on admissions statistics) that you will be ranked lower in your class at UPenn (ie. more people will be higher than you, and this will lead to you having a lower Dental School GPA if you go to Penn.
1) Straightout of a second year Penn Dental student: they don't curve scores at Penn, so your marks aren't compared to your classmates directly.
2) Penn doesn't rank students after the Top 10.
3) While the top 10 at Penn isn't published, I've heard from penn dental students that you may not even be Top 10, but you can still have a 4.0 GPA.. (the top 10 will be decided based on how many Honours A's you have). How many people at Nova are getting 4.0s?
4. To nail the point home further: it could very well be that the range of Penn GPAs is a 3.7 - 4.0 and the mean is a 3.9, whereas the range of Nova GPAs is a 3.0 - 3.95 and the mean is a 3.5. Thus, even if you are in the middle of your class at Penn, or even lower, you would still be getting a higher GPA than majority of the students at Nova...

See, my point is, grade inflation is a big deal and you should be weary of the assumptions you are making.

 

[DrReo]

You are making an assumption that I don't know is entirely correct. You say that you think your GPA will be lower at UPenn because, I gather, you are thinking that since there is a higher calibre of students at UPenn (based on admissions statistics) that you will be ranked lower in your class at UPenn (ie. more people will be higher than you, and this will lead to you having a lower Dental School GPA if you go to Penn.
1) Straightout of a second year Penn Dental student: they don't curve scores at Penn, so your marks aren't compared to your classmates directly.
2) Penn doesn't rank students after the Top 10.
3) While the top 10 at Penn isn't published, I've heard from penn dental students that you may not even be Top 10, but you can still have a 4.0 GPA.. (the top 10 will be decided based on how many Honours A's you have). How many people at Nova are getting 4.0s?
4. To nail the point home further: it could very well be that the range of Penn GPAs is a 3.7 - 4.0 and the mean is a 3.9, whereas the range of Nova GPAs is a 3.0 - 3.95 and the mean is a 3.5. Thus, even if you are in the middle of your class at Penn, or even lower, you would still be getting a higher GPA than majority of the students at Nova...

See, my point is, grade inflation is a big deal and you should be weary of the assumptions you are making.

Grade inflation is an irrelevant topic; it's compensated for by class rank.

 

[Optimism Smiles]

I'm in a similar situation, so I can totally relate. But how do you figure that Nova is only 5,000 bucks cheaper than Penn? The Nova website lists tuition around $37,585 and Penn's tuition for the incoming students last year was $53,990. I think you need to make the decision based upon where YOU feel most comfortable. I can bet you will thrive better in an environment where you feel more comfortable, regardless of the specialization rates at each school. It already sounds like you would prefer to stay in FL just by your first post alone...

 

[dingdong33]

Grade inflation is an irrelevant topic; it's compensated for by class rank.

Word.

 

[Contach]

Grade inflation is an irrelevant topic; it's compensated for by class rank.

unless the school doesn't rank you.. or in this case, doesn't rank past 10th spot.

 

[dingdong33]

unless the school doesn't rank you.. or in this case, doesn't rank past 10th spot.

won't you look bad then if you're not in the top 10, since they won't know where you are relative to other people in the class?

 

[cybermech]

You are making an assumption that I don't know is entirely correct. You say that you think your GPA will be lower at UPenn because, I gather, you are thinking that since there is a higher calibre of students at UPenn (based on admissions statistics) that you will be ranked lower in your class at UPenn (ie. more people will be higher than you, and this will lead to you having a lower Dental School GPA if you go to Penn.
1) Straightout of a second year Penn Dental student: they don't curve scores at Penn, so your marks aren't compared to your classmates directly.
2) Penn doesn't rank students after the Top 10.
3) While the top 10 at Penn isn't published, I've heard from penn dental students that you may not even be Top 10, but you can still have a 4.0 GPA.. (the top 10 will be decided based on how many Honours A's you have). How many people at Nova are getting 4.0s?
4. To nail the point home further: it could very well be that the range of Penn GPAs is a 3.7 - 4.0 and the mean is a 3.9, whereas the range of Nova GPAs is a 3.0 - 3.95 and the mean is a 3.5. Thus, even if you are in the middle of your class at Penn, or even lower, you would still be getting a higher GPA than majority of the students at Nova...

See, my point is, grade inflation is a big deal and you should be weary of the assumptions you are making.

Speaking to that, I've spoken with a Penn student, and he did mention that there is a significant amount of grade inflation at Penn. So, having said that, getting a good GPA is probably not as hard as it may seem. Though obviously, getting ranked at Penn would be a different issue altogether.

What it seems to largely boil down to is how one will perform in dental school based on their abilities. There really are too many factors to consider when one tries to forecast their chances. I mean, if you got a 17AA on the DAT, and that was the best you could do, you will likely struggle in any dental school you go to. But I believe that anyone in the average range of a particular school has the chance to make the top 25% or even top 10% of their school.

Now, this is why we should trust that fact that the admissions committees have chosen us based on their belief that we have what it takes to become a dentist. The rest is up to us.

Therefore, choose the school where you feel most comfortable, in the city you like, with the lifestyle you like... I know my choice of dental school reflects this.

 

[DrReo]

Speaking to that, I've spoken with a Penn student, and he did mention that there is a significant amount of grade inflation at Penn. So, having said that, getting a good GPA is probably not as hard as it may seem. Though obviously, getting ranked at Penn would be a different issue altogether.

What it seems to largely boil down to is how one will perform in dental school based on their abilities. There really are too many factors to consider when one tries to forecast their chances. I mean, if you got a 17AA on the DAT, and that was the best you could do, you will likely struggle in any dental school you go to. But I believe that anyone in the average range of a particular school has the chance to make the top 25% or even top 10% of their school.

Now, this is why we should trust that fact that the admissions committees have chosen us based on their belief that we have what it takes to become a dentist. The rest is up to us.

Therefore, choose the school where you feel most comfortable, in the city you like, with the lifestyle you like... I know my choice of dental school reflects this.

So you're stating that the AA on the DAT as a direct correlation if you will ranking in the top 25%?

 

[thethethe]

yes, you don't get a high AA without being smart.

but he didn't say it was a direct correlation, he said there is a chance you will be in the top 10 or 25 %


woot woot, a lot of snow today

 

[Frederico Albin]

Why would you leave the nice warm weather in Florida to go to PENN? Seriously... I would say in Florida for that reason alone.

 

[iLikeCheese]

Go with your gut feeling of which school will be better for you....in my opinion, this is one of those decisions that is better to make with the gut feeling than by evaluating the pros and cons or stats of a school....where do you WANT to go....the why doesn't much matter in the end.

 

[Contach]

So you're stating that the AA on the DAT as a direct correlation if you will ranking in the top 25%?

DAT scores, particularly AA have been shown to have a low to medium correlation with performance in the first 2 years of dental school. Researchers have found this as the most consistent predictor of performance (ie. there is nothing better). There are quite a few studies on this.. here's just one:

"In addition to college GPA, the DAT has been found to be one of the most consistent predictors of performance in the early part of dental curricula. Estimates of correlation between its academic average (AA) and academic performance in the first year or first two years are in the range of 0.19–0.55, statistically significant in a positive direction and accounting for 4 to 30 percent of the variances in students' performance.13,19,20,22–24,28,32,33 Graham and Boyd12 reported that use of the DAT in Canada decreased attrition rate from a former level of 10–18 percent to 3 percent, and they found reliability of the various parts of the Canadian DAT in 1977 to be from 0.81 to 0.88. Kramer in the United States reported in 1999 that predental GPA plus all DAT scores predicted 40 percent (range 25–60 percent) of the variance in first- and second-year dental school grades.4 Just like GPA as a predictor, the DAT AA was higher among persons who withdrew from dental school for personal reasons than was the case for those who withdrew for academic reasons.18"

http://www.jdentaled.org/cgi/content/full/69/10/1095
Richard R. Ranney, Margaret B. Wilson, & Robert B. Bennett (2005). Evaluation of Applicants to Predoctoral Dental Education Programs: Review of the Literature.J Dent Educ. 69(10): 1095-1106.

 

[Contach]

won't you look bad then if you're not in the top 10, since they won't know where you are relative to other people in the class?

Well, UPenn has something like a 30% specialization rate right out of school. 5 Years after, it's a different story. The class size is around 115. That means that about 24 people aren't ranked and generally get in to specialty. Also, a lot of them match match to residency programs without having a class rank. Apparently residency programs (AEGD/GPR) are challenging to get into as well..

 

[dingdong33]

i would say to go wherever you feel most comfortable. if you're smart enough to specialize, you can specialize wherever you go. penn's specialization rate may be related more to the individuals going with the intention to specialize, rather than the effect of the ivy name.

 

[Black Teeth]

I got accepted to both but I am thinking long term here... I am from South Florida so I have my friends and family here and would probably have a better average at Nova. Where as UPENN I don't know any one and would probably have a lower GPA. My goal is ortho or pedo so what should I do? where should I go?

It's well known among dental specialty applicants that many specialty programs have a tendency to play favorites with their students. If all other credentials being equal, I'm willing to bet that UPENN specialty programs will choose UPENN applicants over other applicants. It's only when the other applicant clearly has better credentials than the UPENN applicant that UPENN will choose the other applicant to its specialty programs. It's a small advantage but it's still an advantage nonetheless. The same principle applies to Nova where Nova applicants have a slight advantage over other applicants when applying to Nova specialty programs. The key difference is that there is no tuition for many of the specialty programs at UPENN. In addition, UPENN will often pay you a stipend depending on the specialty program you are applying to. For example, the pedo program at UPENN pays a stipend of $53-56K per year and charges no tuition. Nova's specialty programs, on the other hand, charges you tuition of roughly $35K and doesn't pay a stipend. For those reasons of the stipend and the lack of tuition, UPENN tends to be the more popular choice. I'm sure the quality of the specialty programs at both dental schools are good. So here is the big question. If you prefer to avoid paying tuition and get a nice stipend when you specialize, go to UPENN because being a UPENN dental student will give you a small advantage getting into UPENN's specialty programs. If it's more important for you to live in Florida and you are willing to pay $35K tuition and it's not important that you get paid a stipend, then go to Nova because being a Nova dental student will give you a small advantage getting into Nova's specialty programs. As you can see, the difference in costs for attending specialty programs between Nova and UPENN can be HUGE but for some people, they are willing to spend the money on tuition in order to live in their own home state. The question is...are you that type of person? Of course, you can always go to Nova for dental school and then apply to UPENN's specialty programs but then you would be wasting a potential advantage in admissions. Acceptance into specialty programs is 20 times harder than getting accepted into dental school and you will need every advantage you can get, especially for ortho and pedo which are the two hottest dental specialties right now. No offense to predents, but your question is best answered by senior dental students or dental specialty residents who are more familiar with the factors involved in specializing. Applying to specialty programs has many factors that differentiate it from applying to dental school. The first and foremost difference is that many dental specialty programs don't charge tuition and pay a stipend whereas some programs such as Nova do charge tuition and don't pay a stipend. This situation doesn't exist in applying to dental school because all dental schools charge tuition and none of them pay a stipend. So asking senior dental students or dental specialty residents would be better than asking a predent because they have already gone through the specialty application process and are more familiar about all the factors involved. There is a forum on SDN for dental residencies. Post your question there and you'll get lots of reliable advice. Sorry if I offended any predents out there as that is not my intention.