I crave for free time

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The Angriest Bird

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Well, residency is a life-consuming job. I'm PGY-2 in general surgery, so that doesn't help either. When I look at the life of surgery attendings, it gets a little bit better but for many it could be even worse.

Free time is so precious for me. Every hour I spend in my own home goes by quickly and I want it back. In my program we get "gold weekends", but a Friday 6pm is followed by Monday morning alarm clock ringing like two seconds later.

This idea starts to invade my mind on a daily basis: would I be a happier person with a 40 hours/week job NO MATTER how much money I make?

I'm not going to quit, and everything is in fact going pretty well. I'm just wondering if anyone else thought about this.
 
Well, residency is a life-consuming job. I'm PGY-2 in general surgery, so that doesn't help either. When I look at the life of surgery attendings, it gets a little bit better but for many it could be even worse.

Free time is so precious for me. Every hour I spend in my own home goes by quickly and I want it back. In my program we get "gold weekends", but a Friday 6pm is followed by Monday morning alarm clock ringing like two seconds later.

This idea starts to invade my mind on a daily basis: would I be a happier person with a 40 hours/week job NO MATTER how much money I make?

I'm not going to quit, and everything is in fact going pretty well. I'm just wondering if anyone else thought about this.


I am a 4th year currently and feel the same way. My 3rd year was particularly brutal on me because I felt that if I worked hard now it would make my life easier as an intern. Its funny how many things change in your life in such a short period of time. I remember thinking that 80hrs a week was no big deal and really liked sleeping at the hospital. I have come to realize that as much as I love medicine, its just a job and its healthy to have a life outside of work. I worked with a trauma surgeon who is pretty much a legend at this hospital. He works every single day, nearly every night and has his own call room where he sleeps 3 nights a week. Been divorced 4 times, has 7 kids he doesn't know, and lives in a big empty house on the beach. Guy is a miserable mess. Then I hang out with the hospitalists and ER docs who take a vacation a month and love their jobs. It made me realize that time away from medicine was just as important as the money you make.

Best advice I got was from my own family doc when I told him I was going to med school, he said "medicine is a job that will take as much time from you as you let it, work hard to not give it too much."
 
Me, too, which is honestly part of the reason why I picked a more lifestyle friendly residency. I couldn't see myself being remotely happy having to work lots of weekends or nights.
 
It hurts so bad every time I think that if my current schedule is 40 hours/week, I'd work Mon, Tues, Wed, and have 4 days off EVERY WEEK. Wow, I'd be so much happier that way as long as I can earn enough money to buy a blanket and loaf of bread everyday.
 
It hurts so bad every time I think that if my current schedule is 40 hours/week, I'd work Mon, Tues, Wed, and have 4 days off EVERY WEEK. Wow, I'd be so much happier that way as long as I can earn enough money to buy a blanket and loaf of bread everyday.

Yes, surgery is a tough specialty. Surg residents work far more hours every week than Primary Care or psych residents, as much as 20 more hours per week on average. Well, even an avg of 10 more hours per week than IM residents in busy programs. I guess your hope of 40 hours/week won't happen.

Surgeons train at least 5 years, sometimes a lot more. That's why I'd prefer a 3-year program in easier specialties, even though I've relatives and friends who are surgeons. I like watching surgery too, esp surgery videos. But I like family practice and IM too. So when the times comes, will only apply those.
 
Well, residency is a life-consuming job. I'm PGY-2 in general surgery, so that doesn't help either. When I look at the life of surgery attendings, it gets a little bit better but for many it could be even worse.

Free time is so precious for me. Every hour I spend in my own home goes by quickly and I want it back. In my program we get "gold weekends", but a Friday 6pm is followed by Monday morning alarm clock ringing like two seconds later.

This idea starts to invade my mind on a daily basis: would I be a happier person with a 40 hours/week job NO MATTER how much money I make?

I'm not going to quit, and everything is in fact going pretty well. I'm just wondering if anyone else thought about this.

you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.

you will be salaried and taken advantage of, playing the email game, the "reports" game, etc. do you know how miserable office life is? how ****ing sad it is to go to work every single ****ing day to hear the same repetitive stories day in and day out "you see that on tv last night????". to work a job with zero meaning just so you can collect a paycheck.

how is that a ****ing life? where you go in 5 days a week (or more) and just pray for the time to go by? you go in wishing that somehow you would just die to be put out of your misery. to not have to see the fat bastards you work with every single day who get pissed off, combative, jealous, etc if they see you doing something better than them at work or in life in general. "did you see John's new car? what kind of an ******* spends his money on that? oh he must be doing something shady, oh he must think he is better than us" you have no idea how insecure people are about money and such. "oh nice car john, clearly we are paying you too much....." your boss sees your new car, hears about your nice trip, etc GETS JEALOUS, gives you hell just because the sole fact that you REMIND HIM/HER that their life sucks because you are out trying to enjoy yours.

you sure you want to go to that 40 hour a week job now? you know, the one that just got downsized and left you unemployed without being able to feed your kids? nice car you had.... its gone now.. how's your house? oh it is foreclosed....

when you work, no matter what job, THEY OWN YOU. they own you on those days you work, you get up early, iron your work uniform/suit etc. get in there, get energized, fake the entire week that you are happy doing mindless garbage work. you get out, maybe you can go for a run but that is about it. or perhaps on your way home, you can stop at the grocery bc your wife just called and wants you to pick up some **** even though you are tired as balls and can only think about getting the hell out of your work uniform.

THEY OWN YOU, they give you just enough money to make you think about quitting. they LOVE when you buy a home/car/etc because it locks you into needing their paycheck even more so they can dump all over you by knowing you are not going anywhere.

YOU DO NOT WANT THIS JOB. you do not want this life. trust me, you wanna get as far away from that life as ****ing possible. that is your "40 hour a week job" that you are fantasizing about when you think the grass is always greener. you know, when your resident friends say "we should have done dentistry, we could work 3 days a week, make 200k a year, have a good life" but have ZERO perspective in that dentistry is not like that and you are only thinking of people who got into dentistry in the right place at the right time.

when you work that 40 hour a week job, all you can fantasize about is the weekend. when sunday hits, you freak out how the next 5 days you are doing it again. a boss breathing down your neck, the hardcore politics bc you didnt ask someone "how was your weekend" and that fat bitch is upset and being cold to you because of it. THIS IS REAL LIFE. REAL LIFE SUCKS ASS. The USA has the poorest quality of life in terms of work-life balance.

you got only a couple of years left and then you can get out and make money. not only that, as a physician you can do so much more. you can think outside the box and get into cosmetics if you like. earn good money doing that. there is quite a bit you can do. you just need to stop thinking from the cookie cutter medicine cookbook. think like a business person. you have such good skills as a physician.

****, start a non-profit that travels to some 3rd world country to do surgeries on those dying. collect donations, have it pay your salary, fly down to this country doing surgery. you get to make money, feel good, have better schedule. you just haven't thought much about the way you can do things.

just one last thing, i know you are thinking "i should have got an MBA, went into a hedge fund, made 5 million a year, etc etc etc". fact is, all medicine people think they have all skills necessary to succeed to the highest degree of all fields in life. some sort of ego thing that is perpetuated by the culture of everyone stroking each other's ego. fact is you could have gone the business route and any other BUT the liklihood of you being wealthy from that is INCREDIBLY LOW.

be greatful for what you have right now. there are MILLIONS of people in this country, and billions in this world that would trade spots with you in a heartbeat. there are so many people out of work WITHOUT unemployment. unemployment is denying claims A LOT these days because they are cracking down to prevent as much spending out as possible. a lot of labor attorneys are fighting all the time for their clients in unemployment hearings.
 
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I'll provide the opposite opinion.

I'm an M4 going in to gen surg. I just got done with two straight sub-Is, which were about as expected at 70-90 hours/week.

I am currently doing radiology, and let me tell you, I would gladly trade a 16 hour day in the OR for these 8-3 days sitting on my ass looking at ditzel after ditzel on 300 negative head CTs. I am not joking when I say that I am more tired when I get home on rads then I was on surg from pure boredom alone. I have absolutely nothing against radiology, it is just soooo not for me.

I don't care how good the hours/pay combo is, I simply could not do certain things for a living.

And just to prove that I am not some sick bastard who lives to work I do have a wife at home and a baby on the way and do enjoy my time at home.
 
I would totally work a 40 hr a week surgery job even if my pay was less than 100K (I want vacations to of course). Then again I am so burnt out that the thought of going on unemployment for as long as possible is sounding quite appetizing. I would retire if I could figure out how to do it on my savings.
 
you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.

you will be salaried and taken advantage of, playing the email game, the "reports" game, etc. do you know how miserable office life is? how ****ing sad it is to go to work every single ****ing day to hear the same repetitive stories day in and day out "you see that on tv last night????". to work a job with zero meaning just so you can collect a paycheck.

how is that a ****ing life? where you go in 5 days a week (or more) and just pray for the time to go by? you go in wishing that somehow you would just die to be put out of your misery. to not have to see the fat bastards you work with every single day who get pissed off, combative, jealous, etc if they see you doing something better than them at work or in life in general. "did you see John's new car? what kind of an ******* spends his money on that? oh he must be doing something shady, oh he must think he is better than us" you have no idea how insecure people are about money and such. "oh nice car john, clearly we are paying you too much....." your boss sees your new car, hears about your nice trip, etc GETS JEALOUS, gives you hell just because the sole fact that you REMIND HIM/HER that their life sucks because you are out trying to enjoy yours.

you sure you want to go to that 40 hour a week job now? you know, the one that just got downsized and left you unemployed without being able to feed your kids? nice car you had.... its gone now.. how's your house? oh it is foreclosed....

when you work, no matter what job, THEY OWN YOU. they own you on those days you work, you get up early, iron your work uniform/suit etc. get in there, get energized, fake the entire week that you are happy doing mindless garbage work. you get out, maybe you can go for a run but that is about it. or perhaps on your way home, you can stop at the grocery bc your wife just called and wants you to pick up some **** even though you are tired as balls and can only think about getting the hell out of your work uniform.

THEY OWN YOU, they give you just enough money to make you think about quitting. they LOVE when you buy a home/car/etc because it locks you into needing their paycheck even more so they can dump all over you by knowing you are not going anywhere.

YOU DO NOT WANT THIS JOB. you do not want this life. trust me, you wanna get as far away from that life as ****ing possible. that is your "40 hour a week job" that you are fantasizing about when you think the grass is always greener. you know, when your resident friends say "we should have done dentistry, we could work 3 days a week, make 200k a year, have a good life" but have ZERO perspective in that dentistry is not like that and you are only thinking of people who got into dentistry in the right place at the right time.

when you work that 40 hour a week job, all you can fantasize about is the weekend. when sunday hits, you freak out how the next 5 days you are doing it again. a boss breathing down your neck, the hardcore politics bc you didnt ask someone "how was your weekend" and that fat bitch is upset and being cold to you because of it. THIS IS REAL LIFE. REAL LIFE SUCKS ASS. The USA has the poorest quality of life in terms of work-life balance.

you got only a couple of years left and then you can get out and make money. not only that, as a physician you can do so much more. you can think outside the box and get into cosmetics if you like. earn good money doing that. there is quite a bit you can do. you just need to stop thinking from the cookie cutter medicine cookbook. think like a business person. you have such good skills as a physician.

****, start a non-profit that travels to some 3rd world country to do surgeries on those dying. collect donations, have it pay your salary, fly down to this country doing surgery. you get to make money, feel good, have better schedule. you just haven't thought much about the way you can do things.

just one last thing, i know you are thinking "i should have got an MBA, went into a hedge fund, made 5 million a year, etc etc etc". fact is, all medicine people think they have all skills necessary to succeed to the highest degree of all fields in life. some sort of ego thing that is perpetuated by the culture of everyone stroking each other's ego. fact is you could have gone the business route and any other BUT the liklihood of you being wealthy from that is INCREDIBLY LOW.

be greatful for what you have right now. there are MILLIONS of people in this country, and billions in this world that would trade spots with you in a heartbeat. there are so many people out of work WITHOUT unemployment. unemployment is denying claims A LOT these days because they are cracking down to prevent as much spending out as possible. a lot of labor attorneys are fighting all the time for their clients in unemployment hearings.

There's a lot of wisdom in this post. Pharma, you gave me severe deja vu of my previous corporate career before switching to medicine, lol. I wouldn't trade back to those office days for anything. The corporate america life is truly miserable and I agree that there is no such thing as a 40hr work week if you ever hope for any sort of advancement. If you settle for the bare minimum, you'll be the first on the chopping block when the company doesn't meet their quarterly earnings estimate. Damn, I don't miss those days for anything.

To the OP:

Don't doubt yourself or your choices. You picked a good career and you'll make it through residency just fine, even if you're a little burnt right now. There's a light at the end of the tunnel.
 
I'll provide the opposite opinion.

I'm an M4 going in to gen surg. I just got done with two straight sub-Is, which were about as expected at 70-90 hours/week.

I am currently doing radiology, and let me tell you, I would gladly trade a 16 hour day in the OR for these 8-3 days sitting on my ass looking at ditzel after ditzel on 300 negative head CTs. I am not joking when I say that I am more tired when I get home on rads then I was on surg from pure boredom alone. I have absolutely nothing against radiology, it is just soooo not for me.

I don't care how good the hours/pay combo is, I simply could not do certain things for a living.

And just to prove that I am not some sick bastard who lives to work I do have a wife at home and a baby on the way and do enjoy my time at home.

Radiology for med students is a total waste. You don't add anything and you don't get anything from it. Nobody cares if you are there or not.

That's why med students are tricked into thinking that radiology is a boring field.

It's different when you are actually reading and dictating the studies.

Alas, most people don't realize that they entered the wrong residency until it's too late. The OP sounds like he has buyer's remorse and it will only get worse.
 
I think what it comes down to is that *anything* you do for 80 hours per week day in and day out is going to get old pretty darn fast. Think about your favorite hobby; whatever it is, most likely you enjoy it because you don't have to do it all the time. You only do it when you feel like it, and you only do it for as long as you feel like doing it (or until you run out of free time). I mean, I enjoy volunteering for SDN, but if I had to do it for 80 hours per week, I'd probably be a lot less enthusiastic about it. How many times can you stomach answering the same old questions over and over again, right? I love reading, but if I were a NY Times book critic and had to read books for 80 hours per week, I'd probably get sick of that too. After a while, my brain just gets tired.

You may not work fewer hours as an attending, but one advantage that attendings have over residents is more control over the type of work they do. For me, even as a fellow, I will only have 20% clinical time and 80% time to do my research. I won't be working fewer hours than now, but I have no doubt that I will be a whole heck of a lot more enthusiastic about doing clinical work when I'm doing it one day per week on average rather than five or six! On the other side, having one clinical day per week will help prevent the drudgery of 80 hours per week of research, too. 🙂
 
you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.

you will be salaried and taken advantage of, playing the email game, the "reports" game, etc. do you know how miserable office life is? how ****ing sad it is to go to work every single ****ing day to hear the same repetitive stories day in and day out "you see that on tv last night????". to work a job with zero meaning just so you can collect a paycheck.

how is that a ****ing life? where you go in 5 days a week (or more) and just pray for the time to go by? you go in wishing that somehow you would just die to be put out of your misery. to not have to see the fat bastards you work with every single day who get pissed off, combative, jealous, etc if they see you doing something better than them at work or in life in general. "did you see John's new car? what kind of an ******* spends his money on that? oh he must be doing something shady, oh he must think he is better than us" you have no idea how insecure people are about money and such. "oh nice car john, clearly we are paying you too much....." your boss sees your new car, hears about your nice trip, etc GETS JEALOUS, gives you hell just because the sole fact that you REMIND HIM/HER that their life sucks because you are out trying to enjoy yours.

you sure you want to go to that 40 hour a week job now? you know, the one that just got downsized and left you unemployed without being able to feed your kids? nice car you had.... its gone now.. how's your house? oh it is foreclosed....

when you work, no matter what job, THEY OWN YOU. they own you on those days you work, you get up early, iron your work uniform/suit etc. get in there, get energized, fake the entire week that you are happy doing mindless garbage work. you get out, maybe you can go for a run but that is about it. or perhaps on your way home, you can stop at the grocery bc your wife just called and wants you to pick up some **** even though you are tired as balls and can only think about getting the hell out of your work uniform.

THEY OWN YOU, they give you just enough money to make you think about quitting. they LOVE when you buy a home/car/etc because it locks you into needing their paycheck even more so they can dump all over you by knowing you are not going anywhere.

YOU DO NOT WANT THIS JOB. you do not want this life. trust me, you wanna get as far away from that life as ****ing possible. that is your "40 hour a week job" that you are fantasizing about when you think the grass is always greener. you know, when your resident friends say "we should have done dentistry, we could work 3 days a week, make 200k a year, have a good life" but have ZERO perspective in that dentistry is not like that and you are only thinking of people who got into dentistry in the right place at the right time.

when you work that 40 hour a week job, all you can fantasize about is the weekend. when sunday hits, you freak out how the next 5 days you are doing it again. a boss breathing down your neck, the hardcore politics bc you didnt ask someone "how was your weekend" and that fat bitch is upset and being cold to you because of it. THIS IS REAL LIFE. REAL LIFE SUCKS ASS. The USA has the poorest quality of life in terms of work-life balance.

you got only a couple of years left and then you can get out and make money. not only that, as a physician you can do so much more. you can think outside the box and get into cosmetics if you like. earn good money doing that. there is quite a bit you can do. you just need to stop thinking from the cookie cutter medicine cookbook. think like a business person. you have such good skills as a physician.

****, start a non-profit that travels to some 3rd world country to do surgeries on those dying. collect donations, have it pay your salary, fly down to this country doing surgery. you get to make money, feel good, have better schedule. you just haven't thought much about the way you can do things.

just one last thing, i know you are thinking "i should have got an MBA, went into a hedge fund, made 5 million a year, etc etc etc". fact is, all medicine people think they have all skills necessary to succeed to the highest degree of all fields in life. some sort of ego thing that is perpetuated by the culture of everyone stroking each other's ego. fact is you could have gone the business route and any other BUT the liklihood of you being wealthy from that is INCREDIBLY LOW.

be greatful for what you have right now. there are MILLIONS of people in this country, and billions in this world that would trade spots with you in a heartbeat. there are so many people out of work WITHOUT unemployment. unemployment is denying claims A LOT these days because they are cracking down to prevent as much spending out as possible. a lot of labor attorneys are fighting all the time for their clients in unemployment hearings.
I don't know if you wrote that yourself or if you copy/pasted it from elsewhere but, DAMN that was a good post. 👍

Talk about perspective.
 
Maybe you should have thought of all this stuff before you went into surgery. 😴

Anyway, I'm finishing up my residency and I've now realized that my dream of starting clinic at 9 just isn't going to happen either. In the business world, they all start at 8. Now that's not as lousy as the surgery 6 a.m. starts, but still I would've liked a 9 a.m. start, so that I can stay up late, goof around, watch some late TV, sleep in a bit, eat a big breakfast, or whatever.

Been doing the interview thing, now about to do the negotiating thing. Asked my family, friends, colleagues, etc. if I should try to negotiate on work hours instead of salary and the overwhelming response has been "Hell no, don't even bring that up". Extremely frowned upon. OTOH, I've been told by attendings that they don't care if new hires want an extra $10K or $20K. But the work hours are very difficult to negotiate on, and from my experience - badly damage you just by even bringing it up.

So don't think it's going to get any easier for you once you get out. In the surgery world, they have even less sympathy for people's desires to lead a normal lifestyle. Good luck finding a group that will hire you right of residency with 8-5 work hours. Hell, good luck finding any surgeons working 8-5 (who at least make decent money).
 
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Anyway here's an easy bench mark for you kids out there, considering high powered (high paying) fields like Cardiology, Surgery, etc.

So when you were in high school, were you one of those people that came in at 6 a.m. to run track or play hockey, and then after a day of school, did you stay after for some goofy academic extracurricular (or some second sport) to help you get into college? Or like 75% of folks, did you just want to get the hell out of there at 3 p.m. so you could go play your video games/watch cartoons quietly at home and veg out for a while? Because if you were like the latter, you're probably not going to enjoy something that involves being physically and mentally "on" for most of the day (as well as away from the comforts of home) like these high work hour, high call fields. The "excitement" of pretty much anything in medicine gets old real fast.
 
The earliest I start my surgery clinic is 9 am. I usually round on my patients prior to this, but rarely am in before about 7 am and typically round starting between 7:45 and 8 before heading to the office. One of my partners occasionally starts clinic at 8:30. The other always starts at 10 and has been doing it this way for years. I was excited when I found out my hospital started the ORs at 8 am.

Now obviously, how long my day lasts is highly variable. Sometimes I'm done at a reasonable hour (4 pm), sometimes my clinic drags on and I need to head back to the hospital before heading home. Some weeks are pretty good; others (like this week) have been terrible hours-wise. Days where I am only in the office are shorter days, assuming I'm not on call.

One thing about PP is that when I tell my assistant to rearrange my office hours or block out time for me to get to an appt, she gets it done and doesn't think anything is odd about the request. She often reminds me that if I need to do this, to let her know. I think she is surprised I don't take advantage of this more. That and the fact that I HATE running late is something she's not used to in a surgeon.
 
Thank you guys for all the inputs. This is a really thoughtful discussion.

I'm a highschool-college-medschool-residency non-stop type of kid, so I've never been on "the other side", but I definitely don't think it's that much greener. And in no f***ing way would I even think about going into a corporate career. I know it's misery beyond your wildest imagination.

I guess the professions that creates most "jealousy", if you wish, are those non-MD jobs in healthcare. CRNAs make 100K+ and they work pretty much 7 to 4, most weekends off, no patients to round on. Vascular techs aren't bad either. I was talking to a NP the other day in the ER, she works 12hr shift x 14 a month and makes near 100K.

But if you think about it, every profession has its bad part:

CRNA - bored to ****, want to gorge eyes out after staring at anesthesia monitors for 5 hours

Vascular Tech - Getting so much crap from vascular surgeons

NP - well, I'm sure it's not fun to pretend to know something when you don't all day long...
 
I work long hours but my sched is very flexible. Only do about 8 hours of clinic per week. Often roll in about 9 am. Sometimes able to get to the nearby casino for a few hours for the daily 1 pm poker tournament (I try to do this once per week). Sleep medicine rocks
 
Having worked a lot of 70 -80 hour weeks in my prior career, I would echo what others have said -- if you want to be a professional, your job is going to eat up a lot of your life. That's true whether we are talking healthcare or non healthcare fields. You have to like it a lot, because that will be most of who you are every week. Workaholics are the happiest people in medicine. Part of the mantra in surgery during the long weeks and late night pages is "well, i signed on for this". It's true -- you had a choice and picked a path that's going to be hugely time consuming because it offers you things you enjoy in terms of the daily task. The hours might not get any better, but the autonomy will, and you will be able to delegate more scut as the years progress. once you get past the scut years, you will probably find that the time at work flies by about as fast as the time away from work.
 
The solution is going into a specialty that still affords the ability to open your own practice or having the iron resolve to do so even if in an unfriendly specialty.

Office based practices can set their schedule.
Office based practices that see patients first with minimal referral are likely able to do cash only and circumvent insurance headaches. Primary care, Psychiatry, Peds, geriatrics, palliative, and even cardiology or a few general surgery.

I'm in psych and a program that doesn't have call 3rd or 4th year. I will moonlight substantially paying down loans and using some of the money to open a practice out of residency. Low overhead to establish a practice. Simply working 15 hours a week with no employees will cover the overhead and pay the equivalent of a midlevel salary. Working 80 hours a week would lead to salary far in excess of general surgery and comparable to neurosurgery. I will have the freedom to control my schedule, hours, and office politics. Life is good. Call sucks now but the small flame of freedom, happiness, and professional satisfaction is lit in my heart and growing fast.

I suggest you switch to one of those fields or network with a group of cash only or retainer style primary care docs and be their cash only surgeon. Do this by spending the time with patients to really communicate with them and relieve their fears. Their feedback to these PCPs will solidify the referral pattern and be the key to getting you out of misery.
 
you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.

Hammers Hits Nail On Head!
 
you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.

you will be salaried and taken advantage of, playing the email game, the "reports" game, etc. do you know how miserable office life is? how ****ing sad it is to go to work every single ****ing day to hear the same repetitive stories day in and day out "you see that on tv last night????". to work a job with zero meaning just so you can collect a paycheck.

how is that a ****ing life? where you go in 5 days a week (or more) and just pray for the time to go by? you go in wishing that somehow you would just die to be put out of your misery. to not have to see the fat bastards you work with every single day who get pissed off, combative, jealous, etc if they see you doing something better than them at work or in life in general. "did you see John's new car? what kind of an ******* spends his money on that? oh he must be doing something shady, oh he must think he is better than us" you have no idea how insecure people are about money and such. "oh nice car john, clearly we are paying you too much....." your boss sees your new car, hears about your nice trip, etc GETS JEALOUS, gives you hell just because the sole fact that you REMIND HIM/HER that their life sucks because you are out trying to enjoy yours.

you sure you want to go to that 40 hour a week job now? you know, the one that just got downsized and left you unemployed without being able to feed your kids? nice car you had.... its gone now.. how's your house? oh it is foreclosed....

when you work, no matter what job, THEY OWN YOU. they own you on those days you work, you get up early, iron your work uniform/suit etc. get in there, get energized, fake the entire week that you are happy doing mindless garbage work. you get out, maybe you can go for a run but that is about it. or perhaps on your way home, you can stop at the grocery bc your wife just called and wants you to pick up some **** even though you are tired as balls and can only think about getting the hell out of your work uniform.

THEY OWN YOU, they give you just enough money to make you think about quitting. they LOVE when you buy a home/car/etc because it locks you into needing their paycheck even more so they can dump all over you by knowing you are not going anywhere.

YOU DO NOT WANT THIS JOB. you do not want this life. trust me, you wanna get as far away from that life as ****ing possible. that is your "40 hour a week job" that you are fantasizing about when you think the grass is always greener. you know, when your resident friends say "we should have done dentistry, we could work 3 days a week, make 200k a year, have a good life" but have ZERO perspective in that dentistry is not like that and you are only thinking of people who got into dentistry in the right place at the right time.

when you work that 40 hour a week job, all you can fantasize about is the weekend. when sunday hits, you freak out how the next 5 days you are doing it again. a boss breathing down your neck, the hardcore politics bc you didnt ask someone "how was your weekend" and that fat bitch is upset and being cold to you because of it. THIS IS REAL LIFE. REAL LIFE SUCKS ASS. The USA has the poorest quality of life in terms of work-life balance.

you got only a couple of years left and then you can get out and make money. not only that, as a physician you can do so much more. you can think outside the box and get into cosmetics if you like. earn good money doing that. there is quite a bit you can do. you just need to stop thinking from the cookie cutter medicine cookbook. think like a business person. you have such good skills as a physician.

****, start a non-profit that travels to some 3rd world country to do surgeries on those dying. collect donations, have it pay your salary, fly down to this country doing surgery. you get to make money, feel good, have better schedule. you just haven't thought much about the way you can do things.

just one last thing, i know you are thinking "i should have got an MBA, went into a hedge fund, made 5 million a year, etc etc etc". fact is, all medicine people think they have all skills necessary to succeed to the highest degree of all fields in life. some sort of ego thing that is perpetuated by the culture of everyone stroking each other's ego. fact is you could have gone the business route and any other BUT the liklihood of you being wealthy from that is INCREDIBLY LOW.

be greatful for what you have right now. there are MILLIONS of people in this country, and billions in this world that would trade spots with you in a heartbeat. there are so many people out of work WITHOUT unemployment. unemployment is denying claims A LOT these days because they are cracking down to prevent as much spending out as possible. a lot of labor attorneys are fighting all the time for their clients in unemployment hearings.

Best post I have ever read on SDN. Wow.
 
👍👍👍

Great post. Working in a corporate or desk job is the pits.

Although my residency wasn't that bad overall I cursed things just as much as the next guy.

I have a lot of debt now and work hard plus have all the CRNA headaches in the world, but I wouldn't trade my position for anything.

you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.

you will be salaried and taken advantage of, playing the email game, the "reports" game, etc. do you know how miserable office life is? how ****ing sad it is to go to work every single ****ing day to hear the same repetitive stories day in and day out "you see that on tv last night????". to work a job with zero meaning just so you can collect a paycheck.

how is that a ****ing life? where you go in 5 days a week (or more) and just pray for the time to go by? you go in wishing that somehow you would just die to be put out of your misery. to not have to see the fat bastards you work with every single day who get pissed off, combative, jealous, etc if they see you doing something better than them at work or in life in general. "did you see John's new car? what kind of an ******* spends his money on that? oh he must be doing something shady, oh he must think he is better than us" you have no idea how insecure people are about money and such. "oh nice car john, clearly we are paying you too much....." your boss sees your new car, hears about your nice trip, etc GETS JEALOUS, gives you hell just because the sole fact that you REMIND HIM/HER that their life sucks because you are out trying to enjoy yours.

you sure you want to go to that 40 hour a week job now? you know, the one that just got downsized and left you unemployed without being able to feed your kids? nice car you had.... its gone now.. how's your house? oh it is foreclosed....

when you work, no matter what job, THEY OWN YOU. they own you on those days you work, you get up early, iron your work uniform/suit etc. get in there, get energized, fake the entire week that you are happy doing mindless garbage work. you get out, maybe you can go for a run but that is about it. or perhaps on your way home, you can stop at the grocery bc your wife just called and wants you to pick up some **** even though you are tired as balls and can only think about getting the hell out of your work uniform.

THEY OWN YOU, they give you just enough money to make you think about quitting. they LOVE when you buy a home/car/etc because it locks you into needing their paycheck even more so they can dump all over you by knowing you are not going anywhere.

YOU DO NOT WANT THIS JOB. you do not want this life. trust me, you wanna get as far away from that life as ****ing possible. that is your "40 hour a week job" that you are fantasizing about when you think the grass is always greener. you know, when your resident friends say "we should have done dentistry, we could work 3 days a week, make 200k a year, have a good life" but have ZERO perspective in that dentistry is not like that and you are only thinking of people who got into dentistry in the right place at the right time.

when you work that 40 hour a week job, all you can fantasize about is the weekend. when sunday hits, you freak out how the next 5 days you are doing it again. a boss breathing down your neck, the hardcore politics bc you didnt ask someone "how was your weekend" and that fat bitch is upset and being cold to you because of it. THIS IS REAL LIFE. REAL LIFE SUCKS ASS. The USA has the poorest quality of life in terms of work-life balance.

you got only a couple of years left and then you can get out and make money. not only that, as a physician you can do so much more. you can think outside the box and get into cosmetics if you like. earn good money doing that. there is quite a bit you can do. you just need to stop thinking from the cookie cutter medicine cookbook. think like a business person. you have such good skills as a physician.

****, start a non-profit that travels to some 3rd world country to do surgeries on those dying. collect donations, have it pay your salary, fly down to this country doing surgery. you get to make money, feel good, have better schedule. you just haven't thought much about the way you can do things.

just one last thing, i know you are thinking "i should have got an MBA, went into a hedge fund, made 5 million a year, etc etc etc". fact is, all medicine people think they have all skills necessary to succeed to the highest degree of all fields in life. some sort of ego thing that is perpetuated by the culture of everyone stroking each other's ego. fact is you could have gone the business route and any other BUT the liklihood of you being wealthy from that is INCREDIBLY LOW.

be greatful for what you have right now. there are MILLIONS of people in this country, and billions in this world that would trade spots with you in a heartbeat. there are so many people out of work WITHOUT unemployment. unemployment is denying claims A LOT these days because they are cracking down to prevent as much spending out as possible. a lot of labor attorneys are fighting all the time for their clients in unemployment hearings.
 
I've worked in the corporate world. I wasn't big time, mostly a few steps above entry level. Was it soul-crushing? I guess, but I'd say this $200,000 debt is even more debilitating.
 
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Preach

Corporate gigs suck, did a year of it between undergrad and med school, it was much like PharmaTope says. There are some similarities in that post to hospital work like politics, etc, but it's a different thing entirely. I think I had like 5 years in me max before I totally cracked.

Really it all comes down to working with people you like in an enjoyable environment, since longer hours is the rule rather than the exception. I think we have a more agency in this than some, especially in this economy.

I think our generation of doctors is going to see a lot of changeup in regards to work hours, call, coverage, etc and focus on physician burnout and doing something else other than just sternly saying "don't burn out"
 
"don't burn out" will work a little while if obamacare moves through. However, it will only be fleeting because we can't afford it. When the financial realities hit and mid levels start getting laid off, who do you think is going to care about physicians feeling burnt out? No, we'll be there working hard just as aways trying to keep the house of cards together.
 
Well, residency is a life-consuming job. I'm PGY-2 in general surgery, so that doesn't help either. When I look at the life of surgery attendings, it gets a little bit better but for many it could be even worse.

Free time is so precious for me. Every hour I spend in my own home goes by quickly and I want it back. In my program we get "gold weekends", but a Friday 6pm is followed by Monday morning alarm clock ringing like two seconds later.

This idea starts to invade my mind on a daily basis: would I be a happier person with a 40 hours/week job NO MATTER how much money I make?

I'm not going to quit, and everything is in fact going pretty well. I'm just wondering if anyone else thought about this.


Eh? Life's good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obrxEjX8F-M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX0Dogyr8Rw
 
you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.

you will be salaried and taken advantage of, playing the email game, the "reports" game, etc. do you know how miserable office life is? how ****ing sad it is to go to work every single ****ing day to hear the same repetitive stories day in and day out "you see that on tv last night????". to work a job with zero meaning just so you can collect a paycheck.

how is that a ****ing life? where you go in 5 days a week (or more) and just pray for the time to go by? you go in wishing that somehow you would just die to be put out of your misery. to not have to see the fat bastards you work with every single day who get pissed off, combative, jealous, etc if they see you doing something better than them at work or in life in general. "did you see John's new car? what kind of an ******* spends his money on that? oh he must be doing something shady, oh he must think he is better than us" you have no idea how insecure people are about money and such. "oh nice car john, clearly we are paying you too much....." your boss sees your new car, hears about your nice trip, etc GETS JEALOUS, gives you hell just because the sole fact that you REMIND HIM/HER that their life sucks because you are out trying to enjoy yours.

you sure you want to go to that 40 hour a week job now? you know, the one that just got downsized and left you unemployed without being able to feed your kids? nice car you had.... its gone now.. how's your house? oh it is foreclosed....

when you work, no matter what job, THEY OWN YOU. they own you on those days you work, you get up early, iron your work uniform/suit etc. get in there, get energized, fake the entire week that you are happy doing mindless garbage work. you get out, maybe you can go for a run but that is about it. or perhaps on your way home, you can stop at the grocery bc your wife just called and wants you to pick up some **** even though you are tired as balls and can only think about getting the hell out of your work uniform.

THEY OWN YOU, they give you just enough money to make you think about quitting. they LOVE when you buy a home/car/etc because it locks you into needing their paycheck even more so they can dump all over you by knowing you are not going anywhere.
YOU DO NOT WANT THIS JOB. you do not want this life. trust me, you wanna get as far away from that life as ****ing possible. that is your "40 hour a week job" that you are fantasizing about when you think the grass is always greener. you know, when your resident friends say "we should have done dentistry, we could work 3 days a week, make 200k a year, have a good life" but have ZERO perspective in that dentistry is not like that and you are only thinking of people who got into dentistry in the right place at the right time.

when you work that 40 hour a week job, all you can fantasize about is the weekend. when sunday hits, you freak out how the next 5 days you are doing it again. a boss breathing down your neck, the hardcore politics bc you didnt ask someone "how was your weekend" and that fat bitch is upset and being cold to you because of it. THIS IS REAL LIFE. REAL LIFE SUCKS ASS. The USA has the poorest quality of life in terms of work-life balance.

you got only a couple of years left and then you can get out and make money. not only that, as a physician you can do so much more. you can think outside the box and get into cosmetics if you like. earn good money doing that. there is quite a bit you can do. you just need to stop thinking from the cookie cutter medicine cookbook. think like a business person. you have such good skills as a physician.

****, start a non-profit that travels to some 3rd world country to do surgeries on those dying. collect donations, have it pay your salary, fly down to this country doing surgery. you get to make money, feel good, have better schedule. you just haven't thought much about the way you can do things.

just one last thing, i know you are thinking "i should have got an MBA, went into a hedge fund, made 5 million a year, etc etc etc". fact is, all medicine people think they have all skills necessary to succeed to the highest degree of all fields in life. some sort of ego thing that is perpetuated by the culture of everyone stroking each other's ego. fact is you could have gone the business route and any other BUT the liklihood of you being wealthy from that is INCREDIBLY LOW.

be greatful for what you have right now. there are MILLIONS of people in this country, and billions in this world that would trade spots with you in a heartbeat. there are so many people out of work WITHOUT unemployment. unemployment is denying claims A LOT these days because they are cracking down to prevent as much spending out as possible. a lot of labor attorneys are fighting all the time for their clients in unemployment hearings.

This a great post. I worked in the real world before going to medical school. I worked my tail off. After I completed my first residency, I ran my own practice for a few years. I was responsible for everything that took place in my office. The buck stopped with me.

Residency is artificial. You will not work as hard as you are working now after you complete residency.

Work as hard as you can now and develop a good work ethic.
Your life is unbalanced now but it will not always be this way.

No one works 40 hrs week in this economy.People are happy just to have jobs.

Being a physician is not a 40 hr week job no matter how you slice it.

Cambie
 
Life as a junior surgery resident is both painful and relatively pointless. I am in my third year now and I don't crave free time that much anymore. My job is fun and there is something interesting or fulfilling everyday. Surgery is a fun gig for the right people, just remember that being an intern or pgy2 is not really what it's like once you get further along in training.
 
Life as a junior surgery resident is both painful and relatively pointless. I am in my third year now and I don't crave free time that much anymore. My job is fun and there is something interesting or fulfilling everyday. Surgery is a fun gig for the right people, just remember that being an intern or pgy2 is not really what it's like once you get further along in training.

May be program dependent, but 3rd year is the best year. It goes downhill again after (mostly non patient care stuff that just makes me want to kill people a little more each day). I definitely crave free time.
 
you only say this because you have not worked in real life jobs before.

i am going to be honest with you, there is no such thing as a 40 hour a week job in this country anymore. if you are working in a job that isnt low paying with minimal skills, your job will demand you stay late, work weekends, with no additional pay.
Clearly, you don't know any nurses.

And yes, I do. I married one, who worked 40 hours/week every week for four years while I was in med school. She only worked more when she wanted to make a lot of extra money.

you will be salaried and taken advantage of, playing the email game, the "reports" game, etc. do you know how miserable office life is? how ****ing sad it is to go to work every single ****ing day to hear the same repetitive stories day in and day out "you see that on tv last night????". to work a job with zero meaning just so you can collect a paycheck.

how is that a ****ing life? where you go in 5 days a week (or more) and just pray for the time to go by? you go in wishing that somehow you would just die to be put out of your misery. to not have to see the fat bastards you work with every single day who get pissed off, combative, jealous, etc if they see you doing something better than them at work or in life in general. "did you see John's new car? what kind of an ******* spends his money on that? oh he must be doing something shady, oh he must think he is better than us" you have no idea how insecure people are about money and such. "oh nice car john, clearly we are paying you too much....." your boss sees your new car, hears about your nice trip, etc GETS JEALOUS, gives you hell just because the sole fact that you REMIND HIM/HER that their life sucks because you are out trying to enjoy yours.

you sure you want to go to that 40 hour a week job now? you know, the one that just got downsized and left you unemployed without being able to feed your kids? nice car you had.... its gone now.. how's your house? oh it is foreclosed....
There is life outside of Office Space.
 
Well, residency is a life-consuming job. I'm PGY-2 in general surgery, so that doesn't help either. When I look at the life of surgery attendings, it gets a little bit better but for many it could be even worse.

Free time is so precious for me. Every hour I spend in my own home goes by quickly and I want it back. In my program we get "gold weekends", but a Friday 6pm is followed by Monday morning alarm clock ringing like two seconds later.

This idea starts to invade my mind on a daily basis: would I be a happier person with a 40 hours/week job NO MATTER how much money I make?

I'm not going to quit, and everything is in fact going pretty well. I'm just wondering if anyone else thought about this.
I feel your pain. I'm also a PGY-2 in general surgery, and the fact that the interns can't take call just ratcheted up the workload for the rest of us. Thank you, ACGME.

I also enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm not planning on quitting at all, but when I'm in the middle of a rough stretch, sometimes all I can think about is when I'm getting one day off 10 days from now.

I guess the professions that creates most "jealousy", if you wish, are those non-MD jobs in healthcare. CRNAs make 100K+ and they work pretty much 7 to 4, most weekends off, no patients to round on. Vascular techs aren't bad either. I was talking to a NP the other day in the ER, she works 12hr shift x 14 a month and makes near 100K.
The CRNAs here make a lot more than $100K, that's for sure (and that's according to the staff anesthesiologists). So yes, I know what you mean about being jealous of them. Of course, they're looking at some serious potential market saturation in the near future.
 
I don't know if you wrote that yourself or if you copy/pasted it from elsewhere but, DAMN that was a good post. 👍

Talk about perspective.
i cant tell you how many people in medicine say "do dentistry you work 3 days a week have an awesome life. there is zero perspective with people saying this.

Hammers Hits Nail On Head!

Best post I have ever read on SDN. Wow.

👍👍👍

Great post. Working in a corporate or desk job is the pits.

Although my residency wasn't that bad overall I cursed things just as much as the next guy.

I have a lot of debt now and work hard plus have all the CRNA headaches in the world, but I wouldn't trade my position for anything.

This a great post. I worked in the real world before going to medical school. I worked my tail off. After I completed my first residency, I ran my own practice for a few years. I was responsible for everything that took place in my office. The buck stopped with me.

Residency is artificial. You will not work as hard as you are working now after you complete residency.

Work as hard as you can now and develop a good work ethic.
Your life is unbalanced now but it will not always be this way.

No one works 40 hrs week in this economy.People are happy just to have jobs.

Being a physician is not a 40 hr week job no matter how you slice it.

Cambie

true, even teachers dont work 40 hours a week. they have mandated after school work, parent meetings, then go home and work on lesson plans. but they do get the summer off. however, no such thing as 40 hours. when people start resigning themselves to this fact, they will approach life differently.

Clearly, you don't know any nurses.

And yes, I do. I married one, who worked 40 hours/week every week for four years while I was in med school. She only worked more when she wanted to make a lot of extra money.


There is life outside of Office Space.

hehe. office space exists in so many places. nursing is good in some sense; however there are a lot of nursing students coming out without jobs now. not sure where your wife is, but nurses here are being asked to shoulder most of the hours. nursing has it good for one reason.... they UNIONIZED. nursing union stays strong together. let this be a lesson to ALL WORKERS, power in numbers. if people strictly stick together they can fight for their rights.
 
however, no such thing as 40 hours. when people start resigning themselves to this fact, they will approach life differently.
Why would they? It's just not true. You can't sub-select out for "career-driven, non-blue collar, stable, well-paying jobs" and then say nobody has a 40-hour work week. Many people have a 40-hour work week, and the OP was just saying that sometimes he wishes that's all he were doing. What's the big deal? You can't argue that he couldn't go work at Home Depot stocking shelves for 40 hours a week (or less...), but of course he realizes it would pay less, have little/no room for upward mobility, and it's a much more tenuous position.

hehe. office space exists in so many places. nursing is good in some sense; however there are a lot of nursing students coming out without jobs now. not sure where your wife is, but nurses here are being asked to shoulder most of the hours. nursing has it good for one reason.... they UNIONIZED. nursing union stays strong together. let this be a lesson to ALL WORKERS, power in numbers. if people strictly stick together they can fight for their rights.
Office Space exists in many places for people who never venture outside of the corporate world, but you could be a plumber, welder, landscaper, stevedore, chef, truck driver, and a zillion other jobs. They all have their pros and cons, and sometimes, people with jobs with a lot of responsibility and long hours (but stable career prospects, high income potential, etc) are wont to occasionally daydream about a job that has little responsibility and much more limited hours.

Don't read into the original post more than necessary.

My wife (and her friends) have worked in a lot of places in multiple states, and it's not too hard to get a job at or below 40/week. She's never been in a union either.
 
I often felt like residency was a grind, but the other side is better.

I look at my neighbors, most living in underwater homes they bought 5-6 years ago when this neighborhood was built (essentially imprisoned in this locale even if their dream job opened up 100 miles away), some working jobs where their hours are being cut back because of the economy. Some of them are snapping up every bit of overtime they can get - they WISH they could work 60 hours/week and get paid for it. Job security is tenuous for many of them.

Two of our best friends just lost their home to foreclosure and declared bankruptcy because their business failed. They work HARD and struggle to keep their daughter in the same gymnastics program our daughter is in (which ain't cheap). Another family we know is in a dire financial state, not helped by the fact that they were forced to move when their landlords got foreclosed on.

I won't go on, you've probably heard your own parade of sob stories from people you know, you get the idea.

Ultimately I'm grateful to be in medicine. Being a doctor in the United States means safe, geographically mobile employment and at least a living wage. The Ferrari and luxury estate may well be out of reach. Maybe "upper middle class stability" is not the dream we had when we were 12 or 18 and imagining doctorhood, but there's no reason it can't be enough.

Just slog through it. Residency ends.
 
I thought about starting a new thread but Ill just keep it here. Anyone out there switch from medicine to a different career? What about those with corporate jobs who switched to medicine. I, like the OP, crave a corporate job. Showing up to the office at 830 sounds so wonderful. But i know that its likely a "grass is greener" type of thing. But im curious to those who have made the switch how they felt about it after and can compare them.
 
I thought about starting a new thread but Ill just keep it here. Anyone out there switch from medicine to a different career? What about those with corporate jobs who switched to medicine. I, like the OP, crave a corporate job. Showing up to the office at 830 sounds so wonderful. But i know that its likely a "grass is greener" type of thing. But im curious to those who have made the switch how they felt about it after and can compare them.

i think everyone would love those corporate jobs if they were that way. however, they come with a lot of bull. it isnt about doing good work at all. you leave and still have work to do. you cant just walk out the door and love life for the most part. then you get the email game going....

"bob wehn can you send me that report" this email is CC to all of your bosses. you have to respond immediately or it looks like you are not doing your job. it is a nasty little corporate trick they do.

also a lot of people have to arrive earlier than 830 am unless you are just human resources worker. it is very mundane and repetitive and you are always on the cutting block bc of the economy. you work hard, but you work hard at a job that can be gone in a second and have no value to what you did longterm. just how i see it.
 
The grass is not always greener on the other side. It is true, however, that the grass is always greener over the septic tank.

Medicine is grueling at times. Physicians work hard and are held to high standards. We are specialized have unique skill sets.

If someone is completely unhappy with medicine they should quit their job and try to find a job as an investment banker that will make them $$$$$$. You could always work part time for peanuts.

I have come to realize that there is always a sub set of the population that is never happy and will always complain. These people often fail to meet their full potential because they are always disgruntled and view the cup as half empty. They think that if they had the right job things would be better. The jobs that some of these folk are seeking do not exist and never will.

Grow up and face life. Chart out a different course for yourself if you must.
If you are not willing to do that please shut up and let the rest of us be.

Cambie
 
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