I guess there is no limit

[exPCM]

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Looking at these tuition and fees reports is a shocker.
https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/
Med school tuitions keep rising much faster than inflation. The numbers are obscene IMO.
I guess med schools have decided there is basically no limit to what students are willing to pay. Look at this budget from Tufts for example:
This is from the Tufts School of Medicine website:

http://www.tufts.edu/med/docs/about/offices/finaid/CostsMD.pdf

 

[schrizto]

insane. 😱

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Tufts is notoriously the most expensive MD school out there. It is not representative of med school tuition overall.

 

[exPCM]

Tufts is notoriously the most expensive MD school out there. It is not representative of med school tuition overall.

OK - Mighty not quite true. The 1st and 2nd years are basically on par with Tufts and 3rd/4th years at Stanford pay significantly more.

The point is that the trend line points to many more schools getting up to Tufts/Stanford levels as tuition rises continue unabated.

 

[tennisball80]

I hope it won't be $100,000 per year to just attend medical school by the time I apply.

 

[JackADeli]

Looking at these tuition and fees reports is a shocker....
....I guess med schools have decided there is basically no limit to what students are willing to pay...

It is because med-school is funded on "socialist" ideas. Yes, it isn't free. But, the costs, with few limits, are defferred out with a dream of future earnings/prosperity/etc... If an island school can obtain in excess of 150million per year in USA funding for medical students, if the island school students can pay huge sums for clinical years they aren't even on the island... What do you think domestic schools will do?

Yep, folks will argue, "it's not socialism, bacause it is a loan you have to pay back...". Actually, excessive costs at universities are the result of NON-market driven parameters. This system is set up in which a med-student rarely declines a USA med school admission for "price tag". You may drop a $150-200+k for 4yrs of education at such a school.... but it is federal dollars you are dropping. Thus, during that time you are NOT the consumer. You do NOT set the value per dollar measures. Again, that is why you can have attrocious outcomes at Ross (yes some do great... but what cost per person succeeding). That is why you have $70k spent per $30k job created, why you have ~$800k spent per mortgage foreclosure "saved".

Credit cards and innappropriate housing lending have always created a "bubble" of artificially inflated costs. Universities & medical schools are no different.... Why is the professor getting paid "x" dollars while his/her grad student is teaching the class..... Why is the grad student getting subsidized in their education/grad degree... because they teach the class the professor is already paid to teach? Now, medical schools are markedly eliminating traditional "gross anatomy".... instead piecemeal with a "dissector".....

The limit will occur when "we" become the consumers setting our standards as opposed to the government setting its standards. Heck, this is absolutely nothing new.... look at k-12 education in the USA? FULLY funded.... and we actually have the concept of "social promotion" and folks getting "inflated grades" to go off to universities and take remedial courses.....

JAD

PS: If there is a "free market component" argument, then supply vs demand.... too few spots too much demand.... but the limits one can pay for this unbalanced ratio is still set by federal funding/loans/grants/military funding/etc....

 

[circulus vitios]

Finish medical school in the US then immediately move overseas and do your residency there.

 

[JackADeli]

Finish medical school in the US then immediately move overseas and do your residency there.

????

 

[circulus vitios]

????

...and don't pay move back or back your US student loans?

 

[exPCM]

...and don't pay move back or back your US student loans?

Interesting idea. Since student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy you cannot escape them if you stay in the US.
It will be interesting to see if we will see more US grads fleeing the US after residency to places like Australia, New Zealand, etc. in order to ditch their loans.
This could end up being a trend, particularly if physician income ends up with further significant erosion via Obamacare.

In the 1960s many US residents fled the country to avoid the Vietnam war draft.
Maybe in the 2010s we will see US residents flee the country to avoid their loans.

 

[Spiker]

...and don't pay move back or back your US student loans?

just go foreign medical school to start with? lol

 

[circulus vitios]

just go foreign medical school to start with? lol

I've never looked at tuition costs in other countries. Are they as ******ed ($50k/year+) as US medical school tuition?

 

[circulus vitios]

Interesting idea. Since student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy you cannot escape them if you stay in the US.
It will be interesting to see if we will see more US grads fleeing the US after residency to places like Australia, New Zealand, etc. in order to ditch their loans.
This could end up being a trend, particularly if physician income ends up with further significant erosion via Obamacare.

In the 1960s many US residents fled the country to avoid the Vietnam war draft.
Maybe in the 2010s we will see US residents flee the country to avoid their loans.

I think it's already becoming more and more common. http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/23/pf/college/student_loan_fugitives/index.htm/

Did universities honestly think they could keep raising tuition?

 

[JackADeli]

...Did universities honestly think they could keep raising tuition?...

Why not? What's to stop them? Often the bank pays the University. The University is already paid. The student usually doesn't owe the university anything.... they owe some bank/fed-sub program....

Yes, there are some "university student loans" but those are small percentages and often sold to private banks....

 

[NickNaylor]

I've never looked at tuition costs in other countries. Are they as ******ed ($50k/year+) as US medical school tuition?

In many of the socialized countries there is no tuition, but I doubt you can just "transfer" so to speak into those programs.

The tuition will more than likely be cheaper everywhere else, but an international MD isn't close to a U.S. MD in terms of getting into a U.S. residency.

 

[circulus vitios]

Why not? What's to stop them? Often the bank pays the University. The University is already paid. The student usually doesn't owe the university anything.... they owe some bank/fed-sub program....

I agree there's no incentive for them not to raise tuition. But what incentive does a medical student (with a quarter million in student loans) have to pay the loans vs fleeing to another country? Friends and family, but beyond that?

The tuition racket will eventually come to an end.

 

[JackADeli]

...what incentive does a medical student ...have to pay the loans vs fleeing to another country? Friends and family, but beyond that...

Friends and family are not minor issues. Further, most entitled, idealistics, unrealistic, American med-students/residents I know would not be able to stomach much of what they would find abroad.... Hell, just look at the complaints of tourists at the "lack of services" abroad...

The price gouging that is ~socialized (by proxy) USA education may get controlled. I don't know. We haven't fixed k-12.... in fact we eliminated opportunities for inner city DC kids to get into the private school systems. Instead, it was unfair and they should have the equal opportunities of the poverty public schools.... paid by government.

 

[Procyon]

What do they do with all that money anyway? Someone's pockets must be lined with gold or something...

I'd be interested to find out the minimum that it would cost per person to keep a med school running.

 

[circulus vitios]

What do they do with all that money anyway? Someone's pockets must be lined with gold or something...

I'd be interested to find out the minimum that it would cost per person to keep a med school running.

Pointless bureaucracy and inflated salaries.

 

[tman5890]

At this rate I'll never be able to afford Medical School...

 

[JackADeli]

What do they do with all that money anyway? ...I'd be interested to find out the minimum that it would cost per person to keep a med school running.

That is the issue. The "units" of quality measured. Successful businesses are cold/hard math machines... You can have some fun, etc... But, a tangible bottom line exists. You produce "x" number of widgets for "y" expenses.

Right now, the congress and numerous others are making the argument at how unfair it is that surgeons can increase their income based on "production". At the same time the argument is made that PCPs are underpaid based on their "production"....

Gov subsidized systems are not based on quality of production.... Thus, k-12 education in the USA.

 

[FIREitUP]

It is because med-school is funded on "socialist" ideas. Yes, it isn't free. But, the costs, with few limits, are defferred out with a dream of future earnings/prosperity/etc... If an island school can obtain in excess of 150million per year in USA funding for medical students, if the island school students can pay huge sums for clinical years they aren't even on the island... What do you think domestic schools will do?

Yep, folks will argue, "it's not socialism, bacause it is a loan you have to pay back...". Actually, excessive costs at universities are the result of NON-market driven parameters. This system is set up in which a med-student rarely declines a USA med school admission for "price tag". You may drop a $150-200+k for 4yrs of education at such a school.... but it is federal dollars you are dropping. Thus, during that time you are NOT the consumer. You do NOT set the value per dollar measures. Again, that is why you can have attrocious outcomes at Ross (yes some do great... but what cost per person succeeding). That is why you have $70k spent per $30k job created, why you have ~$800k spent per mortgage foreclosure "saved".

Credit cards and innappropriate housing lending have always created a "bubble" of artificially inflated costs. Universities & medical schools are no different.... Why is the professor getting paid "x" dollars while his/her grad student is teaching the class..... Why is the grad student getting subsidized in their education/grad degree... because they teach the class the professor is already paid to teach? Now, medical schools are markedly eliminating traditional "gross anatomy".... instead piecemeal with a "dissector".....

The limit will occur when "we" become the consumers setting our standards as opposed to the government setting its standards. Heck, this is absolutely nothing new.... look at k-12 education in the USA? FULLY funded.... and we actually have the concept of "social promotion" and folks getting "inflated grades" to go off to universities and take remedial courses.....

JAD

PS: If there is a "free market component" argument, then supply vs demand.... too few spots too much demand.... but the limits one can pay for this unbalanced ratio is still set by federal funding/loans/grants/military funding/etc....

while i agree that there is definitely a significant government component of the dynamics of tuition, however, even if these schools increased their tuition to a point where subsidized federal loans, etc. wouldn't cover them, there will be flocks of private loaners who would jump on the opportunity to cover a future physician's tuition because they are basically guaranteed their money back.

 

[JackADeli]

while i agree that there is definitely a significant government component of the dynamics of tuition...there will be flocks of private loaners who would jump on the opportunity to cover a future physician's tuition because they are basically guaranteed their money back.

Not so... There is no security in what future earnings... That is an error of thought process commonly made by undergrads... A pre-med has no idea what the medical field will be by the time they are applying for residency and definately no idea what it will be like when they graduate for residency and look for a job. There are just too many variables. Aside from what might be paid to a physician in the future... you would be gambling that the individual makes it into medical school, then they make it into a residency that produces a future practice of adequate revenue to payback these investments.... A reputable lending agency does not lend based on these many steps away from reality and predictable outcomes. Unless, there is some entity subsidizing/insuring against this risky business practice/speculation.

There will be some "gambling" banking institutions that make risky loans like this. But, the flocks will not be there without the background underpinning of Federal backed loans and federal insured banks...

That is how the mortgage crisis happened. Poor loan risks were encouraged and ultimately backed by federal dollars... Thus, not only did unqualified folks get large loans but poor quality houses sold as if they were gourmet properties.... there were always some institutions that gambled on the futures in mortgage markets. the balloon (flock of loans) occurred when the federal government encouraged and backed these practices... thus removing the risks that discouraged more reputable institutions.

Currently, we have inflated college/university costs and often "unqualified" students. Everyone is encouraged to go to college and get a degree. Folks are taking loans while still remediating from innadequate HS education. Folks are loading up on loans for art appreciation degrees, social studies, journalism, etc... Their loans and grants are largely backed by fed dollars. So, you have over valued degrees and unqualified borrowers... I think the epitomy is like the link to Ross university for medical school...

...http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

...3,500 students enrollment/matriculation
30.6% four year graduation rate
66% SIX year graduation rate...

And, around 20% fail to get residency after graduation.
None of these numbers suggest, "basically guaranteed their money back"...