I swear if residency interviews are virtual this year

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Members don't see this ad.
Huh, this looks the same to me? Conducting Interviews During the Coronavirus Pandemic. Still there!

@TedCruz @AMEHigh My issue isn't with the idea of students resuming rotations, it's with the immediacy. Neighboring schools are suspended until July, so why are we resuming in May? Why not have us self-quarantine for two weeks after flying back over at least?

It just seems like the AAMC is prioritizing safety and my school is prioritizing graduation requirements.
 
efle said:
Huh, this looks the same to me? Conducting Interviews During the Coronavirus Pandemic. Still there!

@TedCruz @AMEHigh My issue isn't with the idea of students resuming rotations, it's with the immediacy. Neighboring schools are suspended until July, so why are we resuming in May? Why not have us self-quarantine for two weeks after flying back over at least?

It just seems like the AAMC is prioritizing safety and my school is prioritizing graduation requirements.
Click to expand...

Look at the published date. Doesn’t look like it’s a national requirement


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
What a terrible situation. From the perspective of someone who just finished this process, I agree that the biggest loss is the pre-interview dinner (as taxing as they can be sometimes). That's definitely the best opportunity to see how the residents interact and gauge how well you would fit in. It would be hard to replicate that over Zoom but I do think the idea of offering second look days is appealing - though it would be awkward to turn down a program's second look day and reveal that they aren't in your top 3 or 4.

If it's any consolation whatsoever, much of the interview process in my opinion did not really change the rankings that I already had in my mind. I came into it expecting that I would be able to explore the cities and whatnot, but that largely was not true - unless maybe you have a lot of money and a lot of time to spare, which I didn't. In practice, you spend the whole day driving or flying to your destination, check into the hotel, go to the pre-interview dinner, spend the entire next day at the interview, and then go home (or sometimes to your next interview). The hospital tours, frankly, blended together. All of the presentations and whatnot are available online. Occasionally you'd have a great interview or a really weird, off-putting interview but that should be the same over Zoom anyway.

For what it's worth, I did a second look at the program I matched with and it ended up really affirming how much I liked it and giving me a realistic idea of what the day-to-day is like, which is something you just can't get from an interview - so I definitely do recommend that for a couple top programs if they're offered.
 
bananafish94 said:
It would be hard to replicate that over Zoom but I do think the idea of offering second look days is appealing - though it would be awkward to turn down a program's second look day and reveal that they aren't in your top 3 or 4.
Click to expand...
That's why if this DOES happen it better be AFTER the PDs submit their rank lists
 
bananafish94 said:
What a terrible situation. From the perspective of someone who just finished this process, I agree that the biggest loss is the pre-interview dinner (as taxing as they can be sometimes). That's definitely the best opportunity to see how the residents interact and gauge how well you would fit in. It would be hard to replicate that over Zoom but I do think the idea of offering second look days is appealing - though it would be awkward to turn down a program's second look day and reveal that they aren't in your top 3 or 4.

If it's any consolation whatsoever, much of the interview process in my opinion did not really change the rankings that I already had in my mind. I came into it expecting that I would be able to explore the cities and whatnot, but that largely was not true - unless maybe you have a lot of money and a lot of time to spare, which I didn't. In practice, you spend the whole day driving or flying to your destination, check into the hotel, go to the pre-interview dinner, spend the entire next day at the interview, and then go home (or sometimes to your next interview). The hospital tours, frankly, blended together. All of the presentations and whatnot are available online. Occasionally you'd have a great interview or a really weird, off-putting interview but that should be the same over Zoom anyway.

For what it's worth, I did a second look at the program I matched with and it ended up really affirming how much I liked it and giving me a realistic idea of what the day-to-day is like, which is something you just can't get from an interview - so I definitely do recommend that for a couple top programs if they're offered.
Click to expand...
What do you do at a second look? Is it like a mini rotation?
 
RamsFan&FutureDO said:
...no? The second look day should 100% impact your ROL and theirs or else you can just visit after you match


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
Click to expand...
He is saying you shouldn't have the PD list change but allow it to change yours that way if people don't need to or want to do one then they don't feel obligated "to show commitment."
 
Neopolymath said:
He is saying you shouldn't have the PD list change but allow it to change yours that way if people don't need to or want to do one then they don't feel obligated "to show commitment."
Click to expand...

Right, theoretically, if I am invited to 10 second looks and can only make 2, I would hope that I do not fall down the rank list of the other 8 second looks just because I did not attend. This is why I think the PDs rank lists should be submitted before the applicants, because the second look day should be about the prospective applicant wanting to attend the institution, not a second interview
 
Being on the other side, I think this would hurt programs much more than applicants. I get that this is a medical student forum and most will view it from the latter perspective. But thinking of the weirdos we interviewed who I'm sure looked great on paper and did fine in the actual interviews - God no. Y'all think interview dinners and and stuff are mainly for you getting a feel for the program, and it definitely is intended for that, but we're still judging everyone and - most importantly - filtering out the "absolutely nots."

If you are a strong, competent applicant, then you'll match fine regardless. If you are socially inept and cannot make normal friendly small talk - congrats on them possibly eliminating this part of the interview process!
 
Amba said:
Being on the other side, I think this would hurt programs much more than applicants. I get that this is a medical student forum and most will view it from the latter perspective. But thinking of the weirdos we interviewed who I'm sure looked great on paper and did fine in the actual interviews - God no. Y'all think interview dinners and and stuff are mainly for you getting a feel for the program, and it definitely is intended for that, but we're still judging everyone and - most importantly - filtering out the "absolutely nots."

If you are a strong, competent applicant, then you'll match fine regardless. If you are socially inept and cannot make normal friendly small talk - congrats on them possibly eliminating this part of the interview process!
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • 54DDB53F-DE83-47A0-983B-7131C7C5E59C.png
    54DDB53F-DE83-47A0-983B-7131C7C5E59C.png
    607 KB · Views: 111
efle said:
What a time to be alive where the Association of American Medical Colleges does not speak for American Medical Colleges!
Click to expand...
Residency programs are not part of the AAMC. Perhaps virtual interviews are a good idea, and perhaps we will do them. But I could care less what the AAMC has to say about them. If the AAMC wants to require medical schools to do all virtual interviews for their next incoming class, that's their call.

If we can't do in person interviews, how can we have second look dates? Seems just as problematic, just on a lower scale (since students would go to less of them)
 
NotAProgDirector said:
Residency programs are not part of the AAMC. Perhaps virtual interviews are a good idea, and perhaps we will do them. But I could care less what the AAMC has to say about them. If the AAMC wants to require medical schools to do all virtual interviews for their next incoming class, that's their call.

If we can't do in person interviews, how can we have second look dates? Seems just as problematic, just on a lower scale (since students would go to less of them)
Click to expand...
So you are a program director? lol
 
efle said:
So let it be written. So let it be done.
Click to expand...
Not gonna lie, I’ve respected your posts for years and thought you were further along in your training than I was, based on your various thoughtful and insightful analyses. But the fact that you’re easily 10+ years younger than me and quoted a classic Metallica song (appropriately) makes me like you that much more.
 
Students who have a home program and decide to attend an away rotation will likely be held in lower regard come application season, and rightfully so given the likely national guidance that is about to come down regarding aways.

By the same token, any residency program who chooses to enforce in person interviews despite what will likely be a national consensus for virtual interviews only will have ascended to a level of buffoonery matched only by the federal response to the covid pandemic.
 
It says aways are discgouraged unless you dont have a home program or they are required to graduate from your school. My school doesnt have a home program and requires 3 aways to graduate. My school says they are not changing that requirement. Confused on what do to bc, for EM, CORD says no more than 2 aways but my school literally is making us do 3.
 
holdthemayo said:
Pretty much what everyone has been predicting it would say, except no cap on applications. I think that part is a mistake.
Click to expand...
Regarding predictions, not true. Plenty of folks around here had their heads buried deep enough to sniff their own tonsils. But it's good that there is definitive guidance regarding aways and interviews.
Agreed about application caps, though I expect there will be specialty-specific guidance provided by the relevant organizations in the coming months. Although I don't think there is a way to strictly enforce it.
 
Dr.Bruh said:
It says aways are discgouraged unless you dont have a home program or they are required to graduate from your school. My school doesnt have a home program and requires 3 aways to graduate. My school says they are not changing that requirement. Confused on what do to bc, for EM, CORD says no more than 2 aways but my school literally is making us do 3.
Click to expand...

You might just have to do a sub-I in a different specialty in that scenario. That's my guess anyway.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
students-residents.aamc.org

2026 ERAS® Residency Timeline

Review a timeline for applying for residency positions using ERAS for the 2023 application season.
students-residents.aamc.org students-residents.aamc.org

ERAS has officially been moved back to October 21st, with MSPE's going out the same day.
Click to expand...


I am confused. Did they move up or down? Because I thot the deadline to submit application used to be September 15?
 
frenchyn said:
I am confused. Did they move up or down? Because I thot the deadline to submit application used to be September 15?
Click to expand...

Back. You can submit on September 1 but programs won't see them until October 21st. I highly doubt they will be able to see, and subsequently punish, people who submitted on say October 1 instead of September 1.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Back. You can submit on September 1 but programs won't see them until October 21st. I highly doubt they will be able to see, and subsequently punish, people who submitted on say October 1 instead of September 1.
[/QUOTE

So I can begin On sep 1....but can also wait until 10/20 to submit?
Click to expand...
 
What is the rationale for moving up the application submission date? Most applicants will not wait until 10/20 to submit and will submit on or near 9/01 to get the time stamp. I can't see this making the application process any easier/better for applicants.
 
curbsideconsult said:
What is the rationale for moving up the application submission date? Most applicants will not wait until 10/20 to submit and will submit on or near 9/01 to get the time stamp. I can't see this making the application process any easier/better for applicants.
Click to expand...

This is a post from another thread on the topic:

"So just to confirm about previous cycles. The real submission date on the programs POV is 9/15 but for the students POV it was 9/1. So if you had submitted between 9/1 and 9/14, it would still registered as submitted 9/15 when ERAS opens for programs POV.

so the same thing is happening here where from the programs POV, it opens 10/21 but we can submit it as early as 9/1 if we want. It’s just that from 9/1 to 10/20, it all gets lumped in the 10/21 category"

Credit: @boolin_1

So the time stamp won't matter. Programs will get the applications the same day regardless of when you submit in that time. It makes it a lot less stressful because now you have 4 extra weeks to get LOR's, Step 2 scores, etc.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
This is a post from another thread on the topic:

"So just to confirm about previous cycles. The real submission date on the programs POV is 9/15 but for the students POV it was 9/1. So if you had submitted between 9/1 and 9/14, it would still registered as submitted 9/15 when ERAS opens for programs POV.

so the same thing is happening here where from the programs POV, it opens 10/21 but we can submit it as early as 9/1 if we want. It’s just that from 9/1 to 10/20, it all gets lumped in the 10/21 category"

Credit: @boolin_1

So the time stamp won't matter. Programs will get the applications the same day regardless of when you submit in that time. It makes it a lot less stressful because now you have 4 extra weeks to get LOR's, Step 2 scores, etc.
Click to expand...

This was confirmed by my school today. Everything between 9/1 and 10/21 counts the same.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
students-residents.aamc.org

2026 ERAS® Residency Timeline

Review a timeline for applying for residency positions using ERAS for the 2023 application season.
students-residents.aamc.org students-residents.aamc.org

ERAS has officially been moved back to October 21st, with MSPE's going out the same day.
Click to expand...

This should seal the deal that interviews will indeed be done online, right?
 
sella.turcica said:
This should seal the deal that interviews will indeed be done online, right?
Click to expand...
Rogue PDs will say they are not beholden to these recommendations and will interview as they please.
Reasonable people would understand the recommendations as being as fair as possible given the circumstances and the unknown of how the fall will play out.
I doubt anyone is happy with this, but at least med students and med schools won't be contributing to the problem come fall/winter.
 
The ERAS delay is reasonable -- long enough to create a bit more room for LOR's and step exams, not long enough to compress the interview schedule too much. I'm not convinced it will really help students, but it's fine.

There won't be a cap on applications.

Everyone is probably planning for virtual interviews. Perhaps, if the COVID situation has somehow abated by then, some programs may do in person interviews. Perhaps more complicated is the question of "second look days". Some programs already switched to virtual interviews prior to COVID with success. The mix is usually online video program review + web based interviewing + optional on site visit to meet with residents. Programs that have experimented with this claim that the onsite is completely voluntary and does not affect ranking -- but I wonder if that's true and I'm sure that if this becomes more globalized will not be true for all. Can a second look day be done in a COVID world? Who knows.

How does this affect things? There's no way to know for sure. The top candidates used to get too many interviews, and then would cancel some leading to people getting off waitlists. I expect this might be different this year -- top candidates might decide to keep all/most of their interviews because no travel / cost. Without other changes, this would result in less waitlist movement, lower tier candidates would get less interviews. Maybe that matters in the match, maybe not (remember that if all programs are interviewing the top candidates, and they all rank them, then those programs will fall lower on their rank lists since those top candidates can only go to one program).

But this assumes that programs don't alter their behavior. With only virtual interviews, it's much easier and cheaper to interview candidates. We can ask faculty to interview in the evening, or on weekends, or really at their convenience rather than during our interview days and slots. So perhaps we'll interview more people, and the net result will be more churn but the same match.

Anytime you change the "rules", people get upset because of the unknown. The sky is not falling. Most people will still do just fine. Some people may be disadvantaged, but it's hard to define any clear group. Some people will not match -- this happens every year. For sure, many of those that do not match will blame these new processes. It's human nature.
 
Hoping for the best. Working on my video presence just in case. Since applications open the beginning of June, should we already be requesting transcripts? If so, how long is the turn around time? I’m a non-traditional applicant and have 3 LORs from rheumatology staff lined up. I’m no longer in contact with the Internal Medicine residency program director. Is the letter from the Internal Medicine program director required? Thanks!
 
NotAProgDirector said:
The ERAS delay is reasonable -- long enough to create a bit more room for LOR's and step exams, not long enough to compress the interview schedule too much. I'm not convinced it will really help students, but it's fine.

There won't be a cap on applications.

Everyone is probably planning for virtual interviews. Perhaps, if the COVID situation has somehow abated by then, some programs may do in person interviews. Perhaps more complicated is the question of "second look days". Some programs already switched to virtual interviews prior to COVID with success. The mix is usually online video program review + web based interviewing + optional on site visit to meet with residents. Programs that have experimented with this claim that the onsite is completely voluntary and does not affect ranking -- but I wonder if that's true and I'm sure that if this becomes more globalized will not be true for all. Can a second look day be done in a COVID world? Who knows.

How does this affect things? There's no way to know for sure. The top candidates used to get too many interviews, and then would cancel some leading to people getting off waitlists. I expect this might be different this year -- top candidates might decide to keep all/most of their interviews because no travel / cost. Without other changes, this would result in less waitlist movement, lower tier candidates would get less interviews. Maybe that matters in the match, maybe not (remember that if all programs are interviewing the top candidates, and they all rank them, then those programs will fall lower on their rank lists since those top candidates can only go to one program).

But this assumes that programs don't alter their behavior. With only virtual interviews, it's much easier and cheaper to interview candidates. We can ask faculty to interview in the evening, or on weekends, or really at their convenience rather than during our interview days and slots. So perhaps we'll interview more people, and the net result will be more churn but the same match.

Anytime you change the "rules", people get upset because of the unknown. The sky is not falling. Most people will still do just fine. Some people may be disadvantaged, but it's hard to define any clear group. Some people will not match -- this happens every year. For sure, many of those that do not match will blame these new processes. It's human nature.
Click to expand...
Great post. To take it a step further, if programs invite the same number of applicants as usual, and the top applicants don't cancel as many interviews as usual because they're easier to attend, there's a chance that some of those programs will go unmatched, because all the programs will have the same group of top applicants on their rank lists.
 
longhaul3 said:
Great post. To take it a step further, if programs invite the same number of applicants as usual, and the top applicants don't cancel as many interviews as usual because they're easier to attend, there's a chance that some of those programs will go unmatched, because all the programs will have the same group of top applicants on their rank lists.
Click to expand...
yeah, soap is definitely going to be interesting. I wonder if Programs are going to interview more regional applicants as safeties to offset the risk of not matching. Not sure if it is compatible with the ego's of program directors though.
 
longhaul3 said:
Great post. To take it a step further, if programs invite the same number of applicants as usual, and the top applicants don't cancel as many interviews as usual because they're easier to attend, there's a chance that some of those programs will go unmatched, because all the programs will have the same group of top applicants on their rank lists.
Click to expand...

Alternatively, middle of the road programs may decide not worth interviewing top candidates because of this?
 
libertyyne said:
yeah, soap is definitely going to be interesting. I wonder if Programs are going to interview more regional applicants as safeties to offset the risk of not matching. Not sure if it is compatible with the ego's of program directors though.
Click to expand...
sanfran256 said:
Alternatively, middle of the road programs may decide not worth interviewing top candidates because of this?
Click to expand...
Yeah, hard to say. Obviously programs aren't stupid, but you don't have to be stupid to be stubborn. I'm sure more than a few programs and applicants will botch it this year.
 
longhaul3 said:
Yeah, hard to say. Obviously programs aren't stupid, but you don't have to be stupid to be stubborn. I'm sure more than a few programs and applicants will botch it this year.
Click to expand...
Medical schools tend to overcome this problem by practicing yield protection. Historically PDs dont have to do this because the applicants themselves cancel interviews at lower tier places. This problem could have been avoided by limiting interviews per applicant. I am going to go out on a limb and say since programs have not traditionally yield protected they are going to find themselves unfilled.
You shall know the Truth said:
Can we botch it in our favor is the question
Click to expand...
do you have someone to make calls for your come soap ? They only way to benefit from this being an average applicant would be to have a strong SOAP plan. Alternatively you could try to attend out of reach program interviews and hope they atleast rank you.
 
Amba said:
Being on the other side, I think this would hurt programs much more than applicants. I get that this is a medical student forum and most will view it from the latter perspective. But thinking of the weirdos we interviewed who I'm sure looked great on paper and did fine in the actual interviews - God no. Y'all think interview dinners and and stuff are mainly for you getting a feel for the program, and it definitely is intended for that, but we're still judging everyone and - most importantly - filtering out the "absolutely nots."

If you are a strong, competent applicant, then you'll match fine regardless. If you are socially inept and cannot make normal friendly small talk - congrats on them possibly eliminating this part of the interview process!
Click to expand...
Damn what are people doing at these dinners that make them absolute no’s?
 
redsox93 said:
Damn what are people doing at these dinners that make them absolute no’s?
Click to expand...
For me, it's mostly things that reflect poor self-awareness. Talking way too loud, talking way too much, bragging, asking inappropriate questions, not taking hints, drinking too much, etc. Someone acting like that when you would expect for them to be on their best, most professional behavior means that their baseline is so out of control that that's the best they can do, or that they're not even self-aware enough to realize they need to tone it down.

The worst thing for me is when an applicant (or sub-i) acts too familiar with the residents, like we're all friends. You may be great and we may be great friends if you were in our program, but you're not in our program. On a related note, that's the best part about matching—you're finally part of the crew.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Mr.Smile12
AAMC News: Residency Interviews -- In-person or virtual?
Replies
0
Views
577
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
[Virtual fair] AMSA Residency and Specialty Virtual Fair
Replies
0
Views
397
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
L
Prisma Health Virtual Open House and Virtual Interview Prep
Replies
0
Views
450
lgreenmd
L
S
MD & DO What if I do nothing this summer?
Replies
8
Views
2K
GoSpursGo
GoSpursGo
V
Why are some residents/attendings like this??
Replies
46
Views
4K
Lost in Translation
Lost in Translation
Top