ideas to cut class sizes?

[drsax]

I'm telling you if I read one more post about how blacks and hispanics are not acheiving as much as the "almost exclusively asian" students from your school, or the MD's from historically black colleges are performing lower than other MD's I am gonna I get it.

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[Ben Chudner]

I agree. You guys have been pretty ruthless to 4eyemonica. Try and be more friendly to her as obviously she has been hard enough on herself. Ok

I have a question for you Ryan_eyeball. You just graduated from OD school, correct? Will you make 73-75K this year? Do you have benefits too? What is your practice setting; do you have a website so that we can see it? What are you long-term goals concerning your optometry career?

I am not sure where you are going with this, but Ryan's salary figures are very possible. My first year out, I worked for an OD/MD group with a salary of $70K, with health insurance, 2 weeks paid vacation, all CE travel and expenses, 401(k) and profit sharing. That was in 1998.

 

[KHE]

I'm telling you if I read one more post about how blacks and hispanics are not acheiving as much as the "almost exclusively asian" students from your school, or the MD's from historically black colleges are performing lower than other MD's I am gonna I get it.

I can make no statements with respect to the performance of minority MDs, but I can tell you that in the high school I have taught in, minority students with the exception of those of Asian ancestry are performing at a far lower level than average en masse and there is absolutely no reason for it. They are not any less capable. They are not any "poorer." The vast majority of them are simply less willing to put in the work needed to achieve academic success. Why that is, I guess I will leave to the sociologists.

 

[gsinccom]

I am not sure where you are going with this, but Ryan's salary figures are very possible. My first year out, I worked for an OD/MD group with a salary of $70K, with health insurance, 2 weeks paid vacation, all CE travel and expenses, 401(k) and profit sharing. That was in 1998.

Ben, Thanks for the info. I do believe they are possible, however I'd like for him to backup his words with a little proof. Also, I'm interested if he has any benefits and what his long-term goals are. One problem with Optometry appears that things (salary) haven't changed much since 1998 but the cost of living keeps going up.

 

[iiiimonica]

I can make no statements with respect to the performance of minority MDs, but I can tell you that in the high school I have taught in, minority students with the exception of those of Asian ancestry are performing at a far lower level than average en masse and there is absolutely no reason for it. They are not any less capable. They are not any "poorer." The vast majority of them are simply less willing to put in the work needed to achieve academic success. Why that is, I guess I will leave to the sociologists.

i completley agree with you about immagrant/asian families they do value education and their children do succeed. that is one of the problems w/ non immagrant families. coming from a disadvantaged background isn't just economics, it's also social values and expectations.

my work was focused more on parental support and changing cultural attitudes. that's were the hard work is. changing the attitude and expectations of the parents, many who have barely a 8th grade education, and don't value education.

it's a many headed dragon, with poor preparation on one head, poverty on another and cultural basis on another. too few students from disadvantaged backgrounds have slayed this dragon, making it harder for current students to have an example to look to.

but please, keep up the good work. i'm sure that you are an excellent teacher and your students are very very lucky to have you. prepare them well!

 

[gsinccom]

parents are greatly important!

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

Ben, Thanks for the info. I do believe they are possible, however I'd like for him to backup his words with a little proof. Also, I'm interested if he has any benefits and what his long-term goals are. One problem with Optometry appears that things (salary) haven't changed much since 1998 but the cost of living keeps going up.

Currently I'm working commercial 4 and a half days a week (between two stores), and in a private practice another day and a half a week. I'm planning on opening my own private practice in another year or two. Its always hard to say what one will make his or her first year out. DO you consider your first year out, from the moment you get your license to practice (mine was just this month). Or does one consider the first year starting in January of 2007, as in my first January out. Area is a big factor on where and how you want to practice. I love the area in which I practice and I believe it helps being from there. Already I'm having friends and family referring other individuals to me, because I'm back in the city I grew up in.

I'm not sure how you want me to back up my words as optometry is highly variable, but I believe 70k your first year out is possible. But contact me next August or at the end of December 2007 and I'd be glad to share my outcome.

But to me its moreso enjoyable to see how kids react to your success. Helping out an accommodative esotrope to align, or a kid to have spectacle freedom is a great feeling. I just hope the zest doesn't fade over time.

 

[gsinccom]

Ryan,

Thanks for your thoughts and the info. I have a bit more for you. What area of the country (which state) do you practice in? You are working 6 days a week now, is that because you are buying into the private practice you are working at? Do you have benefits (time off, retirement, health insurance) and if so which ones? How much do you plan on making once you are more established?

Thanks

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

Ryan,

Thanks for your thoughts and the info. I have a bit more for you. What area of the country (which state) do you practice in? You are working 6 days a week now, is that because you are buying into the private practice you are working at? Do you have benefits (time off, retirement, health insurance) and if so which ones? How much do you plan on making once you are more established?

Thanks

Currently I'm practicing in Kansas, but its definitely not for everyone. I'm from here, so its home to me ( I don't need the bay area of California or NY lifestyle). Personally, I enjoy not sitting in traffic for 45 minutes now to get anywhere. But that's just me. I'm not looking to buy into the practice that I'm working part time for. I want to be my own boss, so I'm looking to open cold within the next two years with the help of my family and connections. I'm trying to save some money for the early lean years of income growth for a new practice. Currently, I provide all my benefits since I'm working solely as an independent contractor. You have to provide your mal-practice, medical insurance, disability, retirement/IRA/investments..etc. I skipped out on dental b/c as long as you have relatively healthy teeth two visits a year for a cleaning is cheaper than the amount over a year paid to an ins provider.

 

[jlc111]

Any chance you could find that study again and link it?

There was a fairly extensive study few years back that shows that M.D.’s who graduated from historically black medical schools and Caribbean medical schools have far more medical mistakes that those graduated from other U.S. medical schools even though they all passed the medical boards. While the study found that the education and training are the same in all medical schools, the undergraduate GPA’s and MCAT scores were substantially lower in the historically black and Caribbean schools. The study concluded that this is the cause of the discrepancy.
So, I think that your thinking is right on the money. Those O.D.s who had lower undergraduate GPA would mostly likely under-perform in school and after they graduate.
Fortunately these O.D. will just work in a vision mill doing refraction rather than killing people like the M.D.'s who have low GPA’s.

One more reason to reduce class sizes.

Va Hopeful Dr,

I heard this on NPR(national public radio) while driving few years ago. This is the summary of the story that I found on NPR web site. I had no luck in finding the full study. I suppose you can try to find it if you are really interested in reading it.

Study Singles Out Four Med Schools with Troubled Doctors
June 30, 2003 • A Hartford Courant investigation finds an unusually high number of disciplinary actions against doctors that graduated from Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tenn., Howard University in Washington, D.C., Manila Central University in the Philippines and Autonomous University in Guadalajara, Mexico. The schools produce troubled doctors at about 10 times the rate of top medical schools, the study finds. Hear reporter Jack Dolan.

 

[posner]

I know I am new to these forums, but after accidentally stumbling upon them this evening, I can say that I would be hard pressed to find a bigger group of belly-achers than optometrists. I am very often embarrassed of my colleagues who are usually cheap, poorly dressed, and insecure or ego challenged about their lack of a medical degree. Optometry is a great profession that has the potential to be BOTH financially and personally rewarding. I cannot understand why the profession seems to select so many underachievers. I am not intending to be inflammatory, but rather to voice a strong opinion. The thing that scares me most about the current state of Optometry is not being able to find a future partner to buy me out when the time goes to retire.

 

[DrSpontaneouz83]

Hey iiiiiiimonica,
I'd just like to comend you on your efforts to "pick yourself up and try again." It's never too late and we're never too old to learn from our mistakes although it seems your "mistakes" should actually be admired (the teaching undergrad, etc). On another note, I am also one of "those students" who came from a disadvantaged background, but I used that to my advantage in the sense of ambition. Anyway, Keep up your humanitarian ways, I am sure it will definitely pay off in your career as an optometrist. (no pun intended ) haha

 

[SarahLorraine]

cheerleader ODs probably get the most customers and make the most money

SWEET! I get into Optometry School no matter what AND I get the most customers and make the most money! Yesssss!

 

[SarahLorraine]

Ok wow...I didn't get to the end of this thread. I am a little off topic but I could not help but comment on all the cheerleader remarks. ~NFL Cheerleader

 

[Opii]

Unless optometry not only reduce class sizes but actually close down few schools, this profession is doomed..

ah no, contrary to logic here is what optometry is doing for us.
Let's start practicing our Cheers.

http://www.atlantahighered.org/resources/chronicle.asp

Position: Dean of the College of Optometry
Salary: Unspecified
Institution: Western University of Health Sciences
Location: California
Date posted: 9/27/2006

DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF OPTOMETRY

Western University of Health Sciences (Western U), an academic health center in Southern California, is pleased to announce the addition of a College of Optometry and is seeking nominations and applications for the position of Dean for this new college.

The Dean serves as the chief academic officer of the college and is charged to develop a contemporary educational program, graduating a comprehensive family-practice optometrist with particular strengths in neuro-optometry to serve the increasing public need for those with developmental impairments, brain disorders and trauma, and the visual consequences of aging.

Candidates must show skills in leadership, be attuned to future trends in optometry, and be proactive in identifying program, research and clinical opportunities.

The ideal candidate will have an O.D. degree, or the equivalent, and have strong skills in program development. The Dean, as an advocate for the college and faculty, must provide positive change and be committed to advancing the unique role of Western University in optometric education.

Founded in 1977, Western U is a non-profit, graduate university for the health professions. The campus is located on 25 acres in historic downtown Pomona, California. Western U has over 2000 students who are studying toward degrees in osteopathic medicine, pharmacy, graduate nursing, physical therapy, physician assistant studies, health professions education and veterinary medicine. Programs in dentistry and podiatry are now under development. The new College of Optometry will be embedded within a rich milieu of health professions dedicated to innovative education and multi-disciplinary health care.

Candidates must submit a letter of interest, a comprehensive Curriculum Vitae and professional reference information with the e-mail addresses of at least four references.

Review of applications will begin immediately and continue until an appointment is made. The effective date of the appointment is July 1, 2007.

Please send applications to:

Dr. Benjamin L. Cohen
Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs/Chief Operating Officer
309 E. Second Street
Pomona, California 91766-1854
www.westernu.edu

Western University is an equal opportunity employer and is especially interested in receiving applications that will contribute to the diversity of the community.

A competitive recruitment and selection process is being conducted for this position. If a U.S. worker is not selected pursuant to this process, an application for alien candidate employment certification may be filled on behalf of an alien to fill this position opportunity.

 

[Opii]

I'm telling you if I read one more post about how blacks and hispanics are not acheiving as much as the "almost exclusively asian" students from your school, or the MD's from historically black colleges are performing lower than other MD's I am gonna I get it.

I second that motion

 

[Ben Chudner]

~NFL Cheerleader

Which team?

 

[Opii]

http://www.atlantahighered.org/resources/chronicle.asp

Position: Dean of the College of Optometry
Salary: Unspecified
Institution: Western University of Health Sciences
Location: California
Date posted: 9/27/2006

DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF OPTOMETRY

Western University of Health Sciences (Western U), an academic health center in Southern California, is pleased to announce the addition of a College of Optometry and is seeking nominations and applications for the position of Dean for this new college.

The Dean serves as the chief academic officer of the college and is charged to develop a contemporary educational program, graduating a comprehensive family-practice optometrist with particular strengths in neuro-optometry to serve the increasing public need for those with developmental impairments, brain disorders and trauma, and the visual consequences of aging.

Candidates must show skills in leadership, be attuned to future trends in optometry, and be proactive in identifying program, research and clinical opportunities.

The ideal candidate will have an O.D. degree, or the equivalent, and have strong skills in program development. The Dean, as an advocate for the college and faculty, must provide positive change and be committed to advancing the unique role of Western University in optometric education.

Founded in 1977, Western U is a non-profit, graduate university for the health professions. The campus is located on 25 acres in historic downtown Pomona, California. Western U has over 2000 students who are studying toward degrees in osteopathic medicine, pharmacy, graduate nursing, physical therapy, physician assistant studies, health professions education and veterinary medicine. Programs in dentistry and podiatry are now under development. The new College of Optometry will be embedded within a rich milieu of health professions dedicated to innovative education and multi-disciplinary health care.

Candidates must submit a letter of interest, a comprehensive Curriculum Vitae and professional reference information with the e-mail addresses of at least four references.

Review of applications will begin immediately and continue until an appointment is made. The effective date of the appointment is July 1, 2007.

Please send applications to:

Dr. Benjamin L. Cohen
Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs/Chief Operating Officer
309 E. Second Street
Pomona, California 91766-1854
www.westernu.edu

Western University is an equal opportunity employer and is especially interested in receiving applications that will contribute to the diversity of the community.

A competitive recruitment and selection process is being conducted for this position. If a U.S. worker is not selected pursuant to this process, an application for alien candidate employment certification may be filled on behalf of an alien to fill this position opportunity.

Where's Matt, this is about the time he accuses me of plagerism for cutting and pasting for your convinience.

 

[Opii]

I can make no statements with respect to the performance of minority MDs, but I can tell you that in the high school I have taught in, minority students with the exception of those of Asian ancestry are performing at a far lower level than average en masse and there is absolutely no reason for it. They are not any less capable. They are not any "poorer." The vast majority of them are simply less willing to put in the work needed to achieve academic success. Why that is, I guess I will leave to the sociologists.

Couldn't it be that hispanics and blacks don't perform as well because they have certain white teachers with preconcieved notions that start from the first day of school stereotyping them, therefore already sending negative messages to them? This can affect a person's performance in class.

I hate to say it but I've seen my share of white and asian dummies in my life.

 

[xmattODx]

Where's Matt, this is about the time he accuses me of plagerism for cutting and pasting for your convinience.

Bored are we?

 

[KHE]

Couldn't it be that hispanics and blacks don't perform as well because they have certain white teachers with preconcieved notions that start from the first day of school stereotyping them, therefore already sending negative messages to them? This can affect a person's performance in class.

I hate to say it but I've seen my share of white and asian dummies in my life.

That's a legitmate point and a good possibility in theory, but in most "inner city" schools, most of the teachers are also black or hispanic. Studies have shown that the descrepancy in performance is actually wider in inner city schools where the teacher is more likely to be of the same ethnic background than in suburban schools where the teacher is more likely to be caucasian.

 

[Opii]

Bored are we?

Right on the button. It's gonna be a slow day and I have nothing better to do but to pick fights.

 

[Opii]

That's a legitmate point and a good possibility in theory, but in most "inner city" schools, most of the teachers are also black or hispanic. Studies have shown that the descrepancy in performance is actually wider in inner city schools where the teacher is more likely to be of the same ethnic background than in suburban schools where the teacher is more likely to be caucasian.

Yes, and how many "inner city" whites and asians do you know of or dare to wander into the inner cities to teach? You yourself applied to a snooty school to teach when you were taking a break from optometry.

 

[drsax]

it's a many headed dragon, with poor preparation on one head, poverty on another and cultural basis on another. too few students from disadvantaged backgrounds have slayed this dragon, making it harder for current students to have an example to look to.

iiiimonica hit it on the head. It can be frustrating especially being an URM myself, because it seems sometimes whenever someone wants to suggest solutions to decreasing the number of students entering or how to change the application process, etc. it never fails that differences between the performances of different ethnicities hey sorry I read posts on other boards too ...about how we are not up to par. I just don't want other URM students who come boards like these looking for advice and encouragement to be discouraged. But hey, thats simply an opinion and we all can feel how we feel, but I just want to make sure the other side of the view is known too.

 

[drsax]

That's a legitmate point and a good possibility in theory, but in most "inner city" schools, most of the teachers are also black or hispanic. Studies have shown that the descrepancy in performance is actually wider in inner city schools where the teacher is more likely to be of the same ethnic background than in suburban schools where the teacher is more likely to be caucasian.

I think it has to do with the resources available to inner city schools more than just the teachers alone. Lack of technology, out-dated used textbooks, and school buildings that are literally falling apart. If you take a look at any inner city school and compare them to suburban schools (or even rural communities that pour all their resources into the one school in their area) and you will see the true discrepancy!

 

[KHE]

Yes, and how many "inner city" whites and asians do you know of or dare to wander into the inner cities to teach? You yourself applied to a snooty school to teach when you were taking a break from optometry.

The only reason I did that was because the snooty private school would hire me without certification. To work in the public system, I had to go through the certification process, where I taught at an inner city school and also spent the first year afterwards at an inner city school. So I basically taught 2 years in an inner city school.

The point of the discussion was that students of Asian backgrounds tend to do extremely well in the inner city schools IN SPITE of the fact that they have the same level of poverty, have the same lousy resources, and the same (supposedly) lousy teachers as compared to other minority groups.

 

[KHE]

I think it has to do with the resources available to inner city schools more than just the teachers alone. Lack of technology, out-dated used textbooks, and school buildings that are literally falling apart. If you take a look at any inner city school and compare them to suburban schools (or even rural communities that pour all their resources into the one school in their area) and you will see the true discrepancy!

But there are certain minority and immigrant groups that excel in these schools that lack resources IN SPITE of the lack of resources.

WHy?

I don't know. I have an opinion but I will leave that to the sociologists.

 

[Opii]

KHE - I'm impressed you did your time at inner city schools. I know too many optometrists that wouldn't.


I agree with leaving these issues to sociologists. I remember one argument from my psyc/soc classes to this subject was that immigrants from over seas came from families who were already educated, and these immigrants never experienced slavery and slavery brings down a familie's self esteem. Look for example the 3 year "advanced optometry" schools. These people were picked up from Nigeria, China, from not so impovrished families, the cream of the top in their countries. Sure they may live in a poor neigborhood here in the USA right now but with their knowledge and their non-dysfunctional families their chances to get out of it are very good. Not to mention these individuals have a very strong support club helping them out in their local optometry school or community.

Now look at an american born AA or an immigrant from Mexico. They start at a disadvantage from the start. They come from poor uneducated parents. So they have to travel from point zero to 10 in one generation. That is very difficult. Why are their parents not educated? Because this society didn't allow their parents to be educated, this is the first time some blacks are allowed into these schools. And about Latinos, they are usually the least educated that cross the boarder. The educated ones stay in their country and screw the system so much the poor have no choice but to risk it and cross the boarder. This is why you have ignorat white people going around saying "latinos and blacks are stupid" while "asians and whites are smart."
Another argument that rubs me the wrong way is "latinos and blacks are lazy," If you get rejected 30 or so times by the ignorat white who listens to other ignorant whites about minorities, you have no choice but to go home and slump around depressed all day, thus the image of being "lazy."

Who would you rather hire as your receptionist? A 17 year old blond or asian bimbo with a cheerleading skirt or a 17 year old black guy? Yes 17 year old black males can answer the phone but nobody thinks about this possibility right?

By the way: I'm so darn white I can't even tan, for those wondering.

Bottom Line is: stop bashing blacks and hispanics folks. Your lily white or yellow asses will be competing for those lilly white/yellow upscale positions. The lucky black or latin to pass the boards will still get pushed out into Harlem, they will never get hired by that old white fart with promises to "buy in."

 

[nose_pads]

Creepers, there’s an ear full. I always wondered how some foreign doctors were placed in the “advanced programs” while others were destined to be orderlies at hospitals.

 

[bournehall]

I have an excellent recommendation...close NOW the following optometry programs: St. Louis, south Florida and OK. We did not need them to begin with, and why we're at it cut the class size by 15% across the board. We're all foolish to think leadership within optometry will do anything, they seem to be worse than politicans in Washington.

Optometry is over-saturated and the problem will get worse. There is no question about it. I heard ICO will have a record class of 170+ this fall?? In order to cut class sizes by 10-15%, it starts at the schools. Optometry students have a huge debt load- more than some of my med school friends. BUT we make a lot less than physicians.

Anyone have ideas?
such as
1)Propose to eliminate tuition assistance by states. It will create more debt load for students and deter opt schools from expanding their class sizes. This also can be said to eliminate state-supported schools.
2)Current OD students start petition forcing admin to admit less students. A student from each school will be in charge of the petition and get their classmates involved. (more feasible)

Ideas must be put into action. this is a start...ideas????? or maybe i am going to buy a parka and move to Alaska.

 

[sethuel1]

Ok wow...I didn't get to the end of this thread. I am a little off topic but I could not help but comment on all the cheerleader remarks. ~NFL Cheerleader

Wow, there's all kinds of interesting people getting into optometry.

~King of France