If Amazon workers can do it, we should too!

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

tbs247365

New Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Two years ago, there were several articles in the mainstream press about residents being over-worked as the pandemic tore through the US. Residents were exposed to dangerous working conditions. There was talk of residents considering joining or forming unions, like many workers in other sectors of the economy, to gain protections that only organization can bring.
Was there any hazard pay? Were there substantial raises in base pay for trainees? Did residents and fellows negotiate with employers to win any protections or improvements in working conditions?
What became of this discontent? Were residents able to channel their anger into changes in their power as workers? Did they ally with other healthcare workers and together demand better salaries? How much wealth did residents produce by their labor in 2020, 2021, and in the first three months of 2022? How much of this was pocketed by the hospitals and investors? How much of this wealth was redistributed to the workers that created it? How did the CEOs of hospitals receive record pay during the past two years?
What lessons about organizing and the imperative to fight for workers' rights can resident doctors take from the recent success of Amazon workers in Staten Island, who won an important first round against the most powerful company in the world? How can workers in other Amazon plants and in other parts of Amazon spread this labor militancy, and how can other American workers join in labor struggles? How is Amazon going to react? Of the Amazon workers that didn't support the unionization effort, what were the reasons for their hesitation? How much did Amazon spend to misinform the workers, to make them fearful, to dissuade them from understanding that unionization was in their best interest? What lessons can residents learn from this?
Also, two years ago, after the police murder of George Floyd, there were record protests involving millions of people here and around the world. What became of this mobilization and political awakening? Did it get absorbed and diverted into the 2020 election? Why wasn't the expansion of medicare a proposal that was seriously pursued, as a means of improving the health and life of Americans, and in fighting injustice? How can the two struggles of improving caregiver well-being and also challenging the for-profit medical system be intentionally connected, and what role can residents play in expanding our power?

Your comments, questions, criticisms are welcome. One thing I have found helpful is to debate the idea, not the person.

Members don't see this ad.
 
You cannot simultaneously invite conversation while sowing discord.
 
Multibillionaire Howard Schultz, who returned as Starbucks CEO, expressed the capitalists' panic, likening unionization to assault.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
There are residency programs where residents have been unionized for many years. When I was a resident our housestaff unionized and I was quite active in that. Where I am faculty, our housestaff unionized a few years ago. Most unionized residents collectively bargain with CIR though there are some independent CBUs. Residents can't learn much from Amazon union workers. There are several reasons why it is still uncommon for housestaff to be unionized. The first is the relatively transient nature of residency. Most residents won't see the fruits of labor because it takes many years to negotiate a contract. The second is that historically physicians have been relatively well behaved and unwilling to rock the boat. You don't have leverage unless residents are willing to back action (not necessarily striking but some form of industrial action). The third is many faculty bully residents into not unionzing and that bullying in much more dangerous than what Amazon workers face. Worst Amazon can do is fire you and you could find another job. You lose your residency position, your career is over. Fourth, residents in many specialties are already working long hours and do not want to spending their free time trying to unionize (which requires a lot of investment. Finally, historically residents have been satisfied with being indentured servants for a few years knowing there will be a big payday at the end. This attitude is slowly changing (but is somewhat specialty dependent).

What you will find is that residents are more likely to be unionized in county programs or expensive cities such as NYC, SF, Seattle, LA, San Diego, where the cost of living has been enough to spur some action. There are some notable exceptions such as UMich which has had unionized housestaff for almost 50 years.

Not sure this is the right forum to post in, it is not related to psychiatry.
 
it would be helpful if you broke down your post in more concise statements with arguments rather than hypothetical questions, reading it was a bit cumbersome.

The thing is amazon workers can go on strike if they want to, and that would leave the company SOL for the most part. Going on strike as a physician would punish the patients the most.
 
it would be helpful if you broke down your post in more concise statements with arguments rather than hypothetical questions, reading it was a bit cumbersome.

The thing is amazon workers can go on strike if they want to, and that would leave the company SOL for the most part. Going on strike as a physician would punish the patients the most.
And could very likely get you in trouble for patient abandonment.
 
yes and would be bad all around.

maybe more physicians just need to run for office
Rand Paul flashbacks intensify. I will say I've heard Bill Frist talk and was pretty impressed, he seems to have made pretty good use of his training but that was a different era of politics when being reasonable was a positive attribute.
 
Rand Paul flashbacks intensify. I will say I've heard Bill Frist talk and was pretty impressed, he seems to have made pretty good use of his training but that was a different era of politics when being reasonable was a positive attribute.
His actions around the Terry Schiavo case beg to differ.
 
Rand Paul flashbacks intensify. I will say I've heard Bill Frist talk and was pretty impressed, he seems to have made pretty good use of his training but that was a different era of politics when being reasonable was a positive attribute.
Literally what
 
Rand Paul flashbacks intensify. I will say I've heard Bill Frist talk and was pretty impressed, he seems to have made pretty good use of his training but that was a different era of politics when being reasonable was a positive attribute.
I liked ron paul but rand seemed like a trump loyalist too much to me, and then some his views were way too hard right, since im fairly moderate.

I dunno much about trist

I tend to follow politics less and less these days, seems like its gotten progressively messy.
 
Residents are unionized at lots of places. Regardless, the pay has gone up for residents consistently and the workload decreased (eg work hour restrictions). It has also gone up consistently for post residency employed physicians. I'm not sure what the goals are here. Unions represent their members...the global concepts the OP brings up probably need to be pursued through other avenues.
 
it would be helpful if you broke down your post in more concise statements with arguments rather than hypothetical questions, reading it was a bit cumbersome.

The thing is amazon workers can go on strike if they want to, and that would leave the company SOL for the most part. Going on strike as a physician would punish the patients the most.

Amazon workers can go on strike. . . And they will eventually be replaced by machines faster than they already are.

Housestaff honestly have many things that keep them from unionizing. It is by very nature transient, and they can really screw their long term career.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Residents are unionized at lots of places. Regardless, the pay has gone up for residents consistently and the workload decreased (eg work hour restrictions). It has also gone up consistently for post residency employed physicians. I'm not sure what the goals are here. Unions represent their members...the global concepts the OP brings up probably need to be pursued through other avenues.

the pay hasnt gone up that exceeds the rate of inflation, at least not in many programs including my old program. I definitely feel that hospitals are getting free labor in a sense, my old hospital the residents ran basically everything.
 
the pay hasnt gone up that exceeds the rate of inflation, at least not in many programs including my old program. I definitely feel that hospitals are getting free labor in a sense, my old hospital the residents ran basically everything.

Except they bring no income to the hospital. A resident cannot bill, and most have no idea how to.
 
Except they bring no income to the hospital. A resident cannot bill, and most have no idea how to.
easy way around this, attending sees the patient, says hi. I promise you hospitals find ways around this.

Also in the outpatient setting residents can bill commercial without attending present as long as their is attending oversight, which at my old program if they trusted you was fairly minimal lol
 
Pay has not matched inflation for any unionized positions recently. Inflation is absolutely unmanageable right now. That's a national economic issue.
 
His actions around the Terry Schiavo case beg to differ.
I hadn't read about that, does not sound like he handled it the best but I can also imagine the pressure on him to represent the "pro-life" side given his political affiliation. Sounds like he ended up backtracking a lot around it, interesting that hurt his presidential hopes from the brief reading I did.
 
Literally what
Those are the first two senators who are MDs that came to mind. One who says completely unsupported statements frequently and one who at least seemingly applied principals of science to the office.
 
I was unionized as housestaff. It literally changed nothing.

Unionization is not a solution for all problems. It typically tends to guarantee you a salary that steadily rises. However, it's often the case that the union salary is lower than the highest non-union market salary.

In psychiatry, where labor supply is much lower than labor demand, unionization actually tends to hurt the overall facility-driven salary as well as increase salary disparity. A unioned staff is kind of like a rent-stabilized apartment...

Be careful also with public insurance plans. Mandating insurance and reimbursement rates will, similarly, drop facility attending salaries by a lot. Again go back up to rent stabilization. Union jobs are comparable to jobs in very large public systems (i.e. VA, large state systems, etc.), which are very often already unionized. However, they are not a good fit for everyone. In some instances, the #valueadd in a private system is triple to quadruple the income in the public systems.
 
Last edited:
A union's primary power comes from the threat of striking, or the actual act. This will not go well.

The general public, in large part has no clue as what residency actually is, the hours they work, or what residents get paid... which is still more than a sizeable portion of the population. So "rich" doctors on strike, "abandon" their patients, while thousands are dying on covid wards around the country. Nurses (who are regarded as saints and pretty much untouchable) "have to bear an already overwhelming workload." Further, you don't actually expect current attending being on board with this publicly? The effort will be scorched as being irresponsible.

Many perceive us as millionaires already. How do you think this is going to go?

There ain't no sympathy for us homie, and there never will be. We are no longer 'healthcare heros.'

The momentum of the midlevel independent practice lobbying intensifies, due to the self imposed "shortage" and "we need to be prepared in case this ever happens again."

I see this going over like a lead ballon.

Just my $.02
 
Skip to 8:50


Honestly I do agree residents shouldn't put up with being treated unfairly. There already are channels such as your GME office, the resident protections etc. Of course some programs are toxic and might be violating them but then the answer is reporting those programs.

A reason why there's a shortage of psychiatrists is because for years the pay didn't go up. That's the fault of insurance companies and I don't think unionizing would fix this.
 
Because of the way CMS creates its budget, further unionization would have almost no effect on reimbursement. And it is arguably the case that reimbursement is already "unionized", as the AMA owns the CPT codes. Further unionization might have an effect on salaries, but that would be a shop by shop scenario.
 
Top