If Doctors Made This Little, Would you still become One?

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Average salary will definitely go down. Question is will med school become the new law school. That is when we should be worried.
 
Out of curiosity, do most people here think there is an upper threshold salary beyond which their quality of life would not be perceptibly improved? If so, where would you set that bar?

For instance, given the time constraints imposed on the MD, I'm legitimately having trouble thinking of things I want, need, or could use that might be furnished on a salary of $600k but not of $300k.

Sorry if this question is only marginally relevant; I just see income as subject to the laws of diminishing returns, and am trying to gauge where physicians' salaries fall on that curve for most people.
 
Out of curiosity, do most people here think there is an upper threshold salary beyond which their quality of life would not be perceptibly improved? If so, where would you set that bar?

For instance, given the time constraints imposed on the MD, I'm legitimately having trouble thinking of things I want, need, or could use that might be furnished on a salary of $600k but not of $300k.

Sorry if this question is only marginally relevant; I just see income as subject to the laws of diminishing returns, and am trying to gauge where physicians' salaries fall on that curve for most people.

You will find that as purchasing power goes up, so do purchases.

The vast majority of people live based on what they have (or wish they had) and not a pre-conceived notion of what they want or need developed prior to obtaining their current income level.
 
Out of curiosity, do most people here think there is an upper threshold salary beyond which their quality of life would not be perceptibly improved? If so, where would you set that bar?

For instance, given the time constraints imposed on the MD, I'm legitimately having trouble thinking of things I want, need, or could use that might be furnished on a salary of $600k but not of $300k.

Sorry if this question is only marginally relevant; I just see income as subject to the laws of diminishing returns, and am trying to gauge where physicians' salaries fall on that curve for most people.

There have been studies on this, but I don't know of one specifically for doctors. If I recall correctly, that number was in the neighborhood of $85k. At that point, a member of the general population has enough money that lack of money doesn't seem to cause problems (if one lives within his/her means).

Here again, doctors don't fit neatly into this mold. Doctors have far more debt to service than the average individual. There are medical school loans, servicing debt undertaken to purchase/start a practice, etc.
 
This is overly idealistic to say the least.
Fair enough. Though I must say, I've done cynical and I've done idealistic. Cynical may be more realistic at times, but I find that being an idealist is far better for my general mental well-being.

Also note that I am in a stable living situation. I'm a non-traditional student supported by a husband with a stable white collar job. I have the luxury of not working, and/or taking a poorly compensated position. When I say that I'd work for free, I say that knowing that I could certainly do so if I like.

I love how folks always try to put in the condition of debt forgiveness to these topics. The question really was at what point in our current system is your threshold breaking point for still becoming a physician, assuming reimbursements keep going down ( which everyone believes will continue). It does not include "assuming we forgive debt". The point is that people are looking to cut down healthcare costs, not throw more money into the system to fund med students. Never add the notion if debt forgiveness or subsidization to these questions -- it is not something being contemplated by the entities seeking to lower doctors salaries.
Talking about debt forgiveness isn't silly at all. There are a number of reputable programs that defray the cost of medical student loans in exchange for working with under-served populations. Likewise, there *is* prolific, serious discussion on the national level regarding the implementation of policies that would ease and/or eliminate the burdens of student loan debt for physicians who work in primary care specialties. The cost-benefit analysis (not to mention the unquantifiable societal benefits) of significantly reducing/eliminating medical school costs for primary care docs is overwhelmingly in favor of doing so. Frankly, were it not for the toxic budget environment and extremely difficult economic situation, this would already have been done. Increasing the number of primary care physicians is a fundamental issue addressed in any meaningful healthcare reform, and the loan issue is always the first thing policy analysts talk about addressing.

Average salary will definitely go down. Question is will med school become the new law school. That is when we should be worried.
Average salary may go down, but med students are in no danger at all of becoming akin to new law grads. Our society has a huge glut of lawyers, but an increasingly serious shortage of physician (especially in primary care specialties). Part of the problem is that "law school" is one of the few money making segments of any university. As a result, universities are rapidly adding new law schools (and hence, more law grads) to the market. Every year, several new law schools open. This is clearly not the case with medical schools. Positions in medical school classes have remained static in spite of increased demand for doctors.
 
Yeah, I'm black. So I don't think white guys dating Asian girls counts as "stealing our women".

And I think you don't understand the relationship between commoditization and dehumanization enough to engage in any type of meaningful discussion.

I don't think you understand much about anything to engage in any intelligent discussion.

Here is the concept of commoditization :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodification

I think I understood it quite well. However, just because you like something more, doesn't mean it is commoditization. I think that is pretty clear. Educate yourself so you can actually build decent arguments.

Or, rather if you are going to comment with ideas which you are not willing to defend, likely because you have no intelligible retort, then next time, just use those fingers for something more personally useful for yourself, like....oh I don't know...reading about commoditization.
 
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Fair enough. Though I must say, I've done cynical and I've done idealistic. Cynical may be more realistic at times, but I find that being an idealist is far better for my general mental well-being.

Also note that I am in a stable living situation. I'm a non-traditional student supported by a husband with a stable white collar job. I have the luxury of not working, and/or taking a poorly compensated position. When I say that I'd work for free, I say that knowing that I could certainly do so if I like.

Talking about debt forgiveness isn't silly at all. There are a number of reputable programs that defray the cost of medical student loans in exchange for working with under-served populations. Likewise, there *is* prolific, serious discussion on the national level regarding the implementation of policies that would ease and/or eliminate the burdens of student loan debt for physicians who work in primary care specialties. The cost-benefit analysis (not to mention the unquantifiable societal benefits) of significantly reducing/eliminating medical school costs for primary care docs is overwhelmingly in favor of doing so. Frankly, were it not for the toxic budget environment and extremely difficult economic situation, this would already have been done. Increasing the number of primary care physicians is a fundamental issue addressed in any meaningful healthcare reform, and the loan issue is always the first thing policy analysts talk about addressing.

Average salary may go down, but med students are in no danger at all of becoming akin to new law grads. Our society has a huge glut of lawyers, but an increasingly serious shortage of physician (especially in primary care specialties). Part of the problem is that "law school" is one of the few money making segments of any university. As a result, universities are rapidly adding new law schools (and hence, more law grads) to the market. Every year, several new law schools open. This is clearly not the case with medical schools. Positions in medical school classes have remained static in spite of increased demand for doctors.

You're forgetting something.... Law students can open shop after having a law degree. Medical students require a residency (which has the capacity to bottleneck certain fields). If medical schools didn't require a residency you would see a glut of orthos/anesth/derm and whoever else just as you see glut in certain fields of law.

Residency prevents oversaturation. They can open up 100 medical schools next year, but it wont matter if the students can't get a residency.
 
Average salary will definitely go down. Question is will med school become the new law school. That is when we should be worried.

The system is set up so that doesn't happen, at least for US MDs.
 
You will find that as purchasing power goes up, so do purchases.

The vast majority of people live based on what they have (or wish they had) and not a pre-conceived notion of what they want or need developed prior to obtaining their current income level.

I agree completely - to have money and not spend it is basically the same as not having it 😛, and people spend more if they have more. That goes without saying. However, my question deals not directly with the ability to make purchases, but rather the degree to which such purchases contribute to one's quality of life, defined roughly as the comfort/salubriousness/happiness of one's existence. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a 25% increase in compensation would be more impactful for someone at the poverty line than to someone of Trumpian status. Nor do I think it's unreasonable to assume that different people would venture different answers if I asked "what's the minimum salary you require to get all that you want out of life?" I'm curious how the members of this forum would answer that question.
 
There have been studies on this, but I don't know of one specifically for doctors. If I recall correctly, that number was in the neighborhood of $85k. At that point, a member of the general population has enough money that lack of money doesn't seem to cause problems (if one lives within his/her means).

Here again, doctors don't fit neatly into this mold. Doctors have far more debt to service than the average individual. There are medical school loans, servicing debt undertaken to purchase/start a practice, etc.

This is the study I think you are referring to: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...019628,00.html

I do think that one would need to adjust the requisite income level for happiness upwards for physicians, but that adjustment should just be equal to the amount of annual loan repayment one has (assuming that the 75K level is sufficient for happiness). So $150K would be more than sufficient, according to the study.

I think, however, that it is more difficult to determine for individuals. For me, personally, the investment of time is more of an issue than the costs associated with becoming a doctor.

That is why I would want to do the shortest possible residency relative to future income.
 
I haven't read the other replies, as I don't want them to contaminate my opinion. 😉

First, when you compare US doctor salaries to salaries for physicians in Europe, you're not comparing apples to apples. In particular, medical education in those countries is highly subsidized. Also, primary care physicians are much better compensated (in Germany, average for a primary care doc is in the neighborhood of $125k annually, as compared to $80k-ish in the US). What you don't see abroad, are crazy lopsided scenarios where a cardiologist is pulling down $300k-$400k yearly doing unnecessary angioplasties, stents, etc. while primary care docs, OBs, etc. can barely make ends meet.
A US Primary care physician is compensated just fine. In fact if you are a primary care physician in a group practice you can easily be racking in 500k a year. 80k? Where are you getting 80k from? Furthermore in Germany physicians are making significantly less than 125k. Next, Cardiologists are doing unnecessary angioplasts? Oh just like how orthopedic surgeons are cutting off limbs because they want to make money? Cardiologists make more money because they train longer and because it's more competitive and they see more people.

The other driving force in medical care these days is the disappearance of the private practice doc or small group. More and more, doctors are taking salaried positions with medical centers and medical management companies in order to reap the benefits and security that come from having a professional management company handle all of the administrative and accounting rigamarole. Yes, they are making less money. But they're also taking on a lot less risk on an annual basis, and the start-up costs are negligible (in many situations).

Rural areas will feel the most pain. In these areas, there is insufficient demand for professional management groups to come in and do the legwork to organize and run mega-practices. And even if the demand were there, rural patients as a group have lower incomes and carry adequate health insurance at lower rates than the general population.

Rural practices can make a lot of money. I'm not sure about the stats for doctors, but for Dentists rural practices make significantly more than urban practices.

As to the general question of "would you do it" in the face of shrinking compensation, I can't help but chuckle. As a whole, we do a lousy job of compensating people who work in the caring professions. Some of the most physically and emotionally draining jobs (I'm thinking aids in nursing home or in-home caregivers for Alzheimer's patients, for example) are the poorest paid in the country. It's not unheard of for some in-home care providers to make less than minimum wage when all is said and done.

Becoming a part-time or full-time provider for someone with Alzheimer's does not require a college degree and pays very well. I was a provider for my grandmother for a long time and was paid quite nicely for basically 2-4 hours of work a day. About 12.5-15 bucks an hour and you can have up to 4 clients ( So basically about 60-80 bucks a day) . In institutional sets you need an CNA, my boyfriend's sister works in a nursing home and gets paid very nicely for a degree that took her 2 weeks to get.


A local domestic violence non-profit I've volunteered with for years has a position open that I'm well qualified for. I've applied. It's about $28k annually (plus marginal benefits) for well over 40 hours per week of work. Well, probably less, as last year staff were furloughed for several weeks. None of the perks you'd see at reputable companies. Long hours, lousy pay, and non-stop horrible stories of women getting the hell beat out of them, stalkers, emotional violence, marital rape, strangulation, and general domestic terrorism. I can't think of a job that's more emotionally demanding than that one. Everyone agrees the service provided is important, but nobody wants to give money to make sure the office can stay open. Unfortunately, the prevailing wisdom is that women trapped in abusive relationships "deserve" what they get for staying (read: being unable to leave).

Social work is compensated badly in my opinion. However the problem is that a lot of their jobs can be filled up with volunteers looking to go to psych school or medical school or just alturistic people. My friend who ran the international business club for women ( Or something like that) constantly volunteered there.

Clearly, becoming a doctor is the better deal. At least then you get the respect of people in your community. For me, the goal has always been--and will always be--to help people. One of the things I struggle with is the reality that, if I want to help people, there are dozens of great ways I can do that right NOW. Without giving up years of my life, never seeing my family, going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, and facing uncertainty regarding where we'd live when it comes to matching for a residency.

yup

I want to be a doctor because I believe it's the best use of my talents. Are the other things I could do? Sure. Heck, I'll bet I'd be really good at a lot of them. But deep down, I truly believe I can best put my talents to work for the greater benefit of humanity as a physician. Being the best "me" I can be dictates that I be true to myself. That means being a doctor. I'd work at a domestic violence non-profit for $28k. I'd be a doctor for a lot less than that. Even if it were completely uncompensated, I'd still strongly consider it. That's how strongly I feel about becoming a doctor.

Alright that's respectable
 
if you wanted to help people so badly why don't you go social work? (ccrone)


We need people like you to fill the family medicine residencies while the big dogs (like me, flatearth, and 85% of the posters here) shoot for the bigboy residencies (ortho/derm/urology/cards)
 
if you wanted to help people so badly why don't you go social work? (ccrone)


We need people like you to fill the family medicine residencies while the big dogs (like me, flatearth, and 85% of the posters here) shoot for the bigboy residencies (ortho/derm/urology/cards)

Why do I feel you always diminish family medicine, DOs, DNP, etc? It's like you always want to be above those; this is a childish mentality. Family medicine contributes a lot to health care, unfortunately this health care system and our society does not value them as they should valued.
 
if you wanted to help people so badly why don't you go social work? (ccrone)


We need people like you to fill the family medicine residencies while the big dogs (like me, flatearth, and 85% of the posters here) shoot for the bigboy residencies (ortho/derm/urology/cards)

I don't think it is necessary to diminish the role of the primary care physician FranZ. What they do is important and potentially significantly more important than what many specialists do. Furthermore you and 50%+ of the users on here have a high chance of ending up in a primary care field anyway.
 
The salary will only go down if doctors allow hospitals, insurance companies, or the government determine the value of their skill for them. If we all stood firm there is really no choice but to pay us what we demand (within reason).

The bottom line is a physician has a huge amount of responsibility (liability), a huge investment in education, and has worked their ass off to get where they are. I won't do the job for peanuts and no one else should be forced to either. We determine our value to society by doing the best we can; we should demand the respect and salary to go along with it. To not demand that skills be compensated fairly we would do the entire profession and the public at large a disservice. If we let the government decide on something idiotic, like paying all doctors the same amount of money, eventually people will start to get what they pay for. Getting "average care" would be about the best you could hope for in that scenario.
 
if you wanted to help people so badly why don't you go social work? (ccrone)

That's something I think about quite a bit. I still waffle over it.

A few things to consider:

Social workers also take on mega student loans to earn their MSW (pretty much required for a decent position). Standard cost for an MSW is in the range of $65k to $80k (in other words, fairly comparable to the cost of a 4 year MD degree if you're lucky enough to have an in-state/state supported university). Social workers make in the neighborhood of $25k-$30k to start, and typically max out around $50k-$60k. That's a ton of debt to service and not a lot of salary to do it with.

Continuing in this regard, social work is an emotionally grueling job. In my opinion, and having ample exposure to both, I think it's much, much, much worse than the emotional trauma heaped on doctors. To avoid burnout in any occupation (doctors, social workers, whatever), the time put in, compensation received, and respect from your community and peers have to balance out. In the social work I'm experienced with (rape crisis, domestic violence situations, and related/commensurate child abuse issues), you work long hours, with profoundly lousy pay, and little respect from others. When was the last time you read a great news article praising the work of fantastic, dedicated, successful social workers? As a general rule, you only hear the horror stories. :laugh:

Finally, the work I'm experienced with provides very little emotional boost in the way of positive client outcomes. In DV situations, a woman will leave 8 TIMES (on average) before she finally leaves for good. You can give them all of the support and resources in the world, and they'll still go back to their abuser. Things seldom go well for victims of acquaintance rape (not trying to start an argument, just stating reality). A lot of times, you speak with someone, and then they disappear. You never know what happened to them.

When you're a doctor, you do see heartbreaking cases, but you also see lots of cases where you're genuinely able to help someone in a bad situation, and witness the positive results. You put a cast on that broken arm. Maybe you couldn't cure a patient's cancer, but you were able to provide the patient with precious extra time with his/her family and help ease the pain of their passing. You help someone and get instant positive reinforcement of what you're doing, and that builds the motivation to keep going. You don't get that with social work. You seldom see positive results from your work. And if you do, they're so far removed from your own actions in helping produce that result that it's very difficult for your brain to "learn" from that positive reinforcement.

All in all, I'd say burnout. I'm worried about getting chewed up and spit out. I may take a position for a year or two, as I think I have a lot to offer. But it's not something I could handle for the long-term without becoming a miserable, cynical, cold-hearted old wretch. And miserable, cynical, old, and mean is definitely not what I aspire to be. I want lots of gorgeous laugh lines as I age. None of that awful frown line stuff. 😉
 
Having enough $ is a relative state. From the majority of the posts here I gathered that 150K is not enough for some people, which speaks to the economic background they have. For a person that comes from a poor economic background, 150K will be good money. Personally, I feel is a mistake to generalize and say that 150K is not enough; many people manage to survive with way less.
 
Having enough $ is a relative state. From the majority of the posts here I gathered that 150K is not enough for some people, which speaks to the economic background they have. For a person that comes from a poor economic background, 150K will be good money. Personally, I feel is a mistake to generalize and say that 150K is not enough; many people manage to survive with way less.

I come from a wealthy economic background, and I think that bringing home 100k after taxes along with your partner bringing home around ~50k will be more than enough to live in a good district with a good school system, have a good house, and probably go on vacation to the Caribbean twice a year or Europe once, and still put 15-20k into your savings. So yes, I think that salary is reasonable. However I've got 0 Ug debt and hopefully for medical school will have maybe about 100-200k debt. If you've got 500k debt after residency then maybe 100k probably won't cover things and you'll need to settle for a very middle class living standard.
 
I come from a wealthy economic background, and I think that bringing home 100k after taxes along with your partner bringing home around ~50k will be more than enough to live in a good district with a good school system, have a good house, and probably go on vacation to the Caribbean twice a year or Europe once, and still put 15-20k into your savings. So yes, I think that salary is reasonable. However I've got 0 Ug debt and hopefully for medical school will have maybe about 100-200k debt. If you've got 500k debt after residency then maybe 100k probably won't cover things and you'll need to settle for a very middle class living standard.

yeah, I come from the same. But my dad only works 40hours/week, and my mom maybe 25.

Doctors easily work 60hours/week. So while my dad was able to coach me and stuff growing up, you may not be able to do that as a physician. So why do it for 100k? You lose too much for that salary.
 
yeah, I come from the same. But my dad only works 40hours/week, and my mom maybe 25.

Doctors easily work 60hours/week. So while my dad was able to coach me and stuff growing up, you may not be able to do that as a physician. So why do it for 100k?

It depends on the field. The fields i'm interested in make about 200kish but on average are 40-50 hours a week, so PM&R, Neurology, Psychiatry. All pretty uncompetitive, but all pretty decent life-style specialties, save for neurology.
 
Only the good ones get paid "hundreds of times more." The typical NFL quarterback also earns way more money for other people than the typical physician does.

Don't forget that most NFL players last maybe 10 years making much less than 1 million per year.

Sure. Minimum pay in the NFL is $300K per year, I think, and there may be many who don't go beyond the $1 mil mark. However, my point is that these salaries still seem absolutely ridiculous in the context of providing benefit to society. Yet a significant chunk of the population cares little about overpaid sports players and balks at the notion of paying doctors six figures.
 
I feel like every time I click on these types of threads, I see people saying doctors make less and less annually. I've seen 130K, 120, 100, I see 80 here as well. No, I won't work for 80, especially with the large amount of debt, work time, emotional toll, etc.

And I grew up in a poor household, so that's saying something.
 
Sure. Minimum pay in the NFL is $300K per year, I think, and there may be many who don't go beyond the $1 mil mark. However, my point is that these salaries still seem absolutely ridiculous in the context of providing benefit to society. Yet a significant chunk of the population cares little about overpaid sports players and balks at the notion of paying doctors six figures.


Where else would this money go (in the NFL for example)? The owners?
 
Sure. Minimum pay in the NFL is $300K per year, I think, and there may be many who don't go beyond the $1 mil mark. However, my point is that these salaries still seem absolutely ridiculous in the context of providing benefit to society. Yet a significant chunk of the population cares little about overpaid sports players and balks at the notion of paying doctors six figures.

I agree with you to some extent, but let's not forget that there IS an impact to society in the form of employment opportunities. While providing jobs doesn't have the same "feel good" aspect as medicine, there is no doubt a benefit to society provided by this seemingly silly sport. The football players themselves may not provide much, but the sport as a whole does.
 
I come from a wealthy economic background, and I think that bringing home 100k after taxes along with your partner bringing home around ~50k will be more than enough to live in a good district with a good school system, have a good house, and probably go on vacation to the Caribbean twice a year or Europe once, and still put 15-20k into your savings. So yes, I think that salary is reasonable. However I've got 0 Ug debt and hopefully for medical school will have maybe about 100-200k debt. If you've got 500k debt after residency then maybe 100k probably won't cover things and you'll need to settle for a very middle class living standard.

You raise a good point; having a lot of school debt, both from UG and med school, will definitely weight a lot when determining if you make enough $.
 
if you wanted to help people so badly why don't you go social work? (ccrone)


We need people like you to fill the family medicine residencies while the big dogs (like me, flatearth, and 85% of the posters here) shoot for the bigboy residencies (ortho/derm/urology/cards)
If you think Derm requires a wider/more complex breadth of knowledge than FM, then you need to remove your head from your ass.

By the way, FM and other PC physicians keeps people growing up healthy and staying healthy, which is unequivocally more important to society in the long run than the majority of other specialties.
 
Like pretty much everyone, I agree with the general consensus that physician salaries are going to go down in the future. Since we are pre-meds, I don't think it is improbable that we will see drastic reductions in reimbursement over the course of our careers. As a result, I became very interested in the salaries of physicians in countries like the UK and Canada.

According to this website: http://www.empire-locums.co.uk/doctor-salary.asp, cardiologists in the UK only make $142,300 and orthopedic surgeons make approximately $152,400. (Note: I averaged the high and low and then converted the value from pounds to dollars).

These numbers seem absurdly low. While shadowing I consistently heard many doctors complain about low reimbursements. Practically every physician I spoke to mentioned finances and economics, which seems to indicate that economics and salary play a pivotal role in people's decisions to pursue certain fields (and in their lingering regret that they pursued certain fields).

It became so drastic that it made me seriously reconsider my future goals.

I wanted to ask, if the salaries of US doctors every decreased to this amount, would you still pursue medicine?

Personally, I am all for universal healthcare because I believe healthcare is something that all people should have access to, but I would have to seriously reconsider my career path if salaries decreased to levels seen in England.

Yes, go into investment banking if you want money.
 
I have heard that so much here on SDN. Why does everyone assume we would all make it big as investment bankers?
Lack of life experience and just repeating what they've seen on sdn.
 
If you think Derm requires a wider/more complex breadth of knowledge than FM, then you need to remove your head from your ass.

By the way, FM and other PC physicians keeps people growing up healthy and staying healthy, which is unequivocally more important to society in the long run than the majority of other specialties.

What? How are you able to judge the importance of any one specialty to society compared with another?
 
I hate when people do this. Very few fields require the investment of time, money, and intellectual ability that medicine requires. For that reason, it doesn't make sense to compare physician salaries to the salaries of other professions. The barriers to entry are not nearly the same.

Then that would call into question the educational model in the US, rather than how much money you'd be "happy with" in order to become a physician. However, I hate when people think that effort and required intellect is a burden. If that's your take on life, go into business -_-
 
What? How are you able to judge the importance of any one specialty to society compared with another?
Because he's a pre-med. As a PCP, you carry a great burden. Your patients expects you to know a lot, to see them quickly, and give them the time they feel they deserve. You'll hear, "Oh, I didn't have time for that other appointment but I still have BRBPR" or "I didn't think it necessary to go see the derm despite that suspicious pathology that came back."

PCPs are not any more important than any other specialty. We're (I say this presumptively, graduation is in a year and 3 days) gatekeepers sending people where they need to go when we realize we're out of our comfort zone. Despite knowing a lot and having a great deal of flexibility in what we can and cannot treat, calling us the most important is ludicrous. Every specialty is equally important (at least you can argue it that way).
 
Lack of life experience and just repeating what they've seen on sdn.

Or the fact that people who really care about money go into banking. I care about patients.
 
Or the fact that people who really care about money go into banking. I care about patients.
This mantra is fine but it won't be as solid when you're through third year. Yes you care about patients, as does everyone else, inherently.

But you'll realize soon enough you care about time you're losing that could be devoted to friends, family or loved ones. You'll continue to care about patients, but not the mountains of paperwork you must complete (or see your residents complete). You'll still care about patients but be pissed off at the current system that tries to nickel and dime you everyday.

In the end, you'll either be completely miserable and want to leave medicine or will be happy in your patient interactions (for the most part). But, you'll realize it isn't ALL ABOUT THE PATIENT and that you'll value other parts of your life more. And yes, money will probably be one of them.
 
Or the fact that people who really care about money go into banking. I care about patients.

Easy to say now, harder with 200k debt.

I probably would still have done it, but I also have a far more lucrative career to fall back on if things go to sht.
 
This mantra is fine but it won't be as solid when you're through third year. Yes you care about patients, as does everyone else, inherently.

But you'll realize soon enough you care about time you're losing that could be devoted to friends, family or loved ones. You'll continue to care about patients, but not the mountains of paperwork you must complete (or see your residents complete). You'll still care about patients but be pissed off at the current system that tries to nickel and dime you everyday.

In the end, you'll either be completely miserable and want to leave medicine or will be happy in your patient interactions (for the most part). But, you'll realize it isn't ALL ABOUT THE PATIENT and that you'll value other parts of your life more. And yes, money will probably be one of them.

These are the type of physicians I refuse to see.
 
These are the type of physicians I refuse to see.
That's fine. There will never be a lack of patients for me to see.

There isn't anything wrong with what I posted and its the truth. You get weathered, quickly. As far as my demeanor and rapport with those patients I see, many of them have complimented me to the attending. In our student clinic, I've had patients come back in within the month and request to see me as the student they get to see. There have even been a few who have stopped various family members in the community and gushed about me.

Just because you're realistic, doesn't mean you're an *******.
 
Or the fact that people who really care about money go into banking. I care about patients.

Yes, because employees of the banking sector are the only ones concerned about salaries and benefits. No one else cares about how much they are paid and reimbursed for their work.

Why would anyone want raises, vacation days, or health benefits? A zealous obsession with work and a blind naivety of reality is enough sustenance for true physicians. If you care even an iota about anything that's unrelated to patients, you're clearly just a bad doctor. After all, you're only allowed to care about one thing.
 
If you think Derm requires a wider/more complex breadth of knowledge than FM, then you need to remove your head from your ass.

By the way, FM and other PC physicians keeps people growing up healthy and staying healthy, which is unequivocally more important to society in the long run than the majority of other specialties.

Yeah, to hell with the surgeons who actually cure things and grant mobility/quality-of-life that a PC could never. Yes, its important to grow up healthy -- but I imagine that PC doctors have far less a role in the everyday life of many teens and young adults. They don't have too great and influence or else we wouldn't be a nation plagued by childhood obesity.

What? How are you able to judge the importance of any one specialty to society compared with another?

👍Well said.
This mantra is fine but it won't be as solid when you're through third year. Yes you care about patients, as does everyone else, inherently.

But you'll realize soon enough you care about time you're losing that could be devoted to friends, family or loved ones. You'll continue to care about patients, but not the mountains of paperwork you must complete (or see your residents complete). You'll still care about patients but be pissed off at the current system that tries to nickel and dime you everyday.

In the end, you'll either be completely miserable and want to leave medicine or will be happy in your patient interactions (for the most part). But, you'll realize it isn't ALL ABOUT THE PATIENT and that you'll value other parts of your life more. And yes, money will probably be one of them.
👍

These are the type of physicians I refuse to see.

Chances are you've seen one who thinks this way. How do you know if your physician actually cares about you?
 
Other families manage with less than 100K

Let's break down a 100K salary for someone with ~300K student loans and a ~200K mortgage who's married with several kids.

Gross income: $100k

Expenses: (Annual)
Retirement (pretax): $10k
Benefits (pretax): $2k
Mortgage, Property Taxes, & Ins: $20k (guesstimate)
Student loan payment: $36k
Taxes: ~ $12k (guesstimate, considering ~ $20K in deductibles + child credits @ 26% combined - state, fed, employment - rate)

Remaining funds: ~ $20K ($1,600/month) - To cover all other expenses including utilities (gas, water, elect, trash, phone, cable, internet, etc.), car expenses, food, household supplies, entertainment, family/children's activities, kid's education, clothes, vacations, etc..........

Personally, this seems awfully tight....so, no, $100K/year is not enough money if you have to pay for medical school via debt. $120K/year seems like the minimum needed to live comfortably. If you're in an area with expensive housing, you will likely need more than that.
 
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150k is significantly less than what an ER doc earns now (avg 246k), but I could still get by.

I won't be in much debt, and I'd just have to ride in my ford a few more years before I could buy my Porsche.
 
A million times yes, I would still want to become a doctor.

Salary and paying bills is a concern many different professions share. You do not know the circumstances those physicians that were complaining were in for example, whether they had credit card debt from college, attended a very expensive institution for their bachelor's degree, how many children they have etc.

Knowing doctors from countries like Brazil where they have to work 3 jobs as physicians to pay their bills, I think that we have it pretty damn good and doctors in the UK and Canada do as well. Physicians in America complain about their pay but then go on to talk about the weekend vacations they took with their jetskiis.

I would consider the type of lifestyle you want to live and whether you can do that with the time, effort and the salary you will receive being a doctor. If you think there isn't enough money for you in medicine I would reconsider your goals. To me it's about making a difference and being able to make my bills on time and save a little bit for the future. You don't work a day in your life if you love what you do, right?
 
I have heard that so much here on SDN. Why does everyone assume we would all make it big as investment bankers?

Because most people don't know what it actually takes to break into I-banking. It is leaps and bounds harder to become an investment banker than it is to become a doctor.
As long as you have about a 3.6+ and a decent MCAT score from anywhere, you can become a doctor. But you pretty much need HYP 3.8+ to get into bulge bracket firms.

My friend has a 3.9+ in econ from Yale and didn't get a single banking offer. The girl I know who is working for Goldman Sachs is ridiculous, in terms of her credentials! But that's what it takes to pull down about $120K a year right out of college.

Also, the really big bucks are in hedge funds, venture capital, and private equity. .


And as a disclaimer, I have no interest in I-banking and have no experience working in finance. I just hear this stuff from my friends who are going into this field.

And I-banking is very diverse, salaries and hours vary widely between Sales & Trading, Mergers & Acquisitions, Equity Research, etc. If you think surgery hours are hell, try being an investment banker.
 
Because most people don't know what it actually takes to break into I-banking. It is leaps and bounds harder to become an investment banker than it is to become a doctor.
As long as you have about a 3.6+ and a decent MCAT score from anywhere, you can become a doctor. But you pretty much need HYP 3.8+ to get into bulge bracket firms.

My friend has a 3.9+ in econ from Yale and didn't get a single banking offer. The girl I know who is working for Goldman Sachs is ridiculous, in terms of her credentials! But that's what it takes to pull down about $120K a year right out of college.

Also, the really big bucks are in hedge funds, venture capital, and private equity. .


And as a disclaimer, I have no interest in I-banking and have no experience working in finance. I just hear this stuff from my friends who are going into this field.

And I-banking is very diverse, salaries and hours vary widely between Sales & Trading, Mergers & Acquisitions, Equity Research, etc. If you think surgery hours are hell, try being an investment banker.

A bunch of my friends work in the financial sector (not i-banking). They went to good schools but nothing like yale or ivy leagues. They make from 60-100K straight out of college is the key word here though. I make -60K a year. We both live similar lifestyles i.e. living with roommates now is awesome and fun and also equals less money to pay for rent etc.

But when youre older your not gonna wanna live with roommates and your kids probably wont help out with the mortgage. So if our living expenses are both around 15-20K per year theyre getting alot of money saved up for retirement, emergency funds, down payment for a house etc. As they age they will also get promotions etc.

Plus id still say surgery hours are harder. Your running around, standing most of the day it adds up and takes a toll on u at the end of the day vs sitting at a computer. I had to stand for literally 20 hours one day on my surgery rotation and thank god I ate breakfast that day cuz it was the only meal I got.
 
As far as I know, Canadian doctors pay less for school and malpractice insurance. That makes a big difference, as does not having to pay for personal health insurance.

Then again, cost of living in Canada tends to be higher than most places in the US. It probably evens out in the end.
 
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