if this isnt massive grade inflation ... (also question for dartmouth ppl)

[stifler]

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~reg/courses/medians/04f.html

if this isnt massive grade inflation then i dont know what is.

wow i go to a school like dartmouth except non ivy and we dont have grades that generous. makes me angry.

okay sorry if i offended you. but yea im giong to try to study away there because itll be cool to leave my college for another one for a semester. so if you are from dartmouth mind leaving me a aim sn or email so i can ask you some questions about upper level sci courses? thanks!

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[hardy]

I did a search for C and all I could find where the Cs in the course names... pretty sad.

 

[SarahGM]

Every premed biology course (none of which happen to be on there -- they're Bio 15 and 16) has a median of a B-, meaning the average student (at a quality school like Dartmouth) is getting a 2.7 for the class. We premeds worked damn hard. Grrrr, threads like this make me mad.

Sarah

Dartmouth '03
Columbia P&S '08

 

[DrBowtie]

Even a 2.7 for the median is pretty inflated. The median should be a 2.0

 

[jon stewart]

Even a 2.7 for the median is pretty inflated. The median should be a 2.0

yes, a C is average which is a 2.0

 

[hardy]

Every premed biology course (none of which happen to be on there -- they're Bio 15 and 16) has a median of a B-, meaning the average student (at a quality school like Dartmouth) is getting a 2.7 for the class. We premeds worked damn hard. Grrrr, threads like this make me mad.

2 options:
- "quality schools like Dartmouth" apply the same standards at other schools in which case the name Dartmouth really means something. In that case, a 3.5 from Dartmouth would not equal a 3.5 from Boise state.
- "quality schools like Dartmouth" grade easier since their students are better and hence it would be unfair to grade them on the same scale. In this case a 3.5 from Dartmouth would probably equal a 3.5 from Boise state.

You cannot have both.

 

[Centinel]

2 options:
- "quality schools like Dartmouth" apply the same standards at other schools in which case the name Dartmouth really means something. In that case, a 3.5 from Dartmouth would not equal a 3.5 from Boise state.
- "quality schools like Dartmouth" grade easier since their students are better and hence it would be unfair to grade them on the same scale. In this case a 3.5 from Dartmouth would probably equal a 3.5 from Boise state.

You cannot have both.

Hardy,

Your argument is predication upon the notion that 'other schools' such as Boise State don't have grade inflation, which you state without evidence.


Drink Lord

 

[hardy]

Your argument is predication upon the notion that 'other schools' such as Boise State don't have grade inflation, which you state without evidence.

True. Here the evidence that grade inflation is lower at public schools:
http://www.gradeinflation.com/

Of course, each school is different.

 

[rme04]

I have seen studies that show Dartmouth has the least grade inflation of the Ivy Schools.

And as sarah stated already, the hard science departments at Dartmouth inflate grades far less than the social science and humanities depts.

It is an Ivy, so there is some leeway given to students in terms of grading. But at least its not like Harvard, where everyone gets an A.

feel free to send me a private message if you have questions. i majored in Bio.

 

[stifler]

Every premed biology course (none of which happen to be on there -- they're Bio 15 and 16) has a median of a B-, meaning the average student (at a quality school like Dartmouth) is getting a 2.7 for the class. We premeds worked damn hard. Grrrr, threads like this make me mad.

Sarah

Dartmouth '03
Columbia P&S '08

lol what? my school's bio class average was a C-. No joke. Anyways I'm sure you worked hard. Pratically everyone on this site works hard. I'm just saying its a lot of grade inflation compared my school at least. but hey you guys worked your ass off to get into dartmouth. i busted ass and the best school i got into is the color of ****. i just wish my school was like that heh.

anyways what do you know about physical chem at dartmouth? chemistry 61 or 71.

 

[sven]

It is an Ivy, so there is some leeway given to students in terms of grading. But at least its not like Harvard, where everyone gets an A.

Hey Rme04, your statement is completely off base. Yes, there's grade inflation at Harvard, but many science classes are curved around a B or B-. I personally know of a number of students who transferred from other ivy schools and complained about the difficulty of the science classes. Yes, there are a few classes where nearly everyone gets an A, but these are generally small seminars and they're the exception, not the rule.

 

[stifler]

btw sorry if my post seemed ignorant seeing as that i dont attend dartmouth, but try to get past my link and actually let me get in contact with anyone from dartmouth familar with the science department particularly chemistry

 

[Mixtli]

I don't go to an Ivy school but an Ivy caliber school. The grading is essentially the same. Hard science classes are curbed to a B-/B and math classes to a B-/B. Easier science classes are curbed to a B+/A-

 

[45408]

Give it up, guys. There's no point to threads like these, and it's been beaten to death anyways.

 

[Omidjoon]

I went to a crappy school my freshman year and they dont curve anything whatsoever... they curve tests, but they never curve the class average to be anything... thats how the average Grades in our Chemistry Classes was a 1.94 Average for all Chemistry Students....Thank GOODNESS I AM GOING TO THE UNIVERISTY OF TEXAS!

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

Every premed biology course (none of which happen to be on there -- they're Bio 15 and 16) has a median of a B-, meaning the average student (at a quality school like Dartmouth) is getting a 2.7 for the class. We premeds worked damn hard. Grrrr, threads like this make me mad.

Sarah

Dartmouth '03
Columbia P&S '08

It's extremely hard to believe that the school would give out B+ and A- to the average student in every class except for the pre-med classes. The grades on that list are consistent all the way down.

 

[rme04]

It's extremely hard to believe that the school would give out B+ and A- to the average student in every class except for the pre-med classes. The grades on that list are consistent all the way down.

it may be hard to believe but its true. All of the premed classes on that list have median grades of B. The rest of the premed classes are not listed because they are not Fall quarter classes.

 

[riceman04]

Even a 2.7 for the median is pretty inflated. The median should be a 2.0

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"The Ivy League of the South"

😀 😀

 

[45408]

Why SHOULD it be around 2.0. Wow, i did not know you can set the median before scores are given 🙄 !
Dude what if recent classes have just, on average, been scoring consistently higher than those classes in the past.
......
More standardized tests, longer school years, more class time, and parents that are more involved and informed just may lead (maybe) to a smarter generation.

Because if everyone is getting between a 3.5 and a 4.0, how are you ever going to tell which students are really working the hardest? There has to be a separation in order to see who really is the best. The grade of C should go to an average student giving an average performance. If there's a group of above average students giving an excellent performance, that doesn't mean they should all get a C because they're average for the class, but you know what I mean.

 

[Mastashake]

True. Here the evidence that grade inflation is lower at public schools:
http://www.gradeinflation.com/

Of course, each school is different.

So you don't think this happens cause schools like Dartmouth have a generally higher HS GPA and ACT/SAT scores?

Just curious...

Mastashake

 

[riceman04]

Because if everyone is getting between a 3.5 and a 4.0, how are you ever going to tell which students are really working the hardest? There has to be a separation in order to see who really is the best. The grade of C should go to an average student giving an average performance. If there's a group of above average students giving an excellent performance, that doesn't mean they should all get a C because they're average for the class, but you know what I mean.

Is everyone really getting btwn 3.5 and 4.0 though?
That's pretty high.

Hell, i wish Rice would have hooked a brotha up with some nice grades

 

[DrBowtie]

I usually have heard that it is indeed Vandy and not Rice that is the "Ivy of the South"

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

So you don't think this happens cause schools like Dartmouth have a generally higher HS GPA and ACT/SAT scores?

Just curious...

Mastashake

No, plenty of schools have high GPA/SAT scores, but not ridiculous grade inflation, such as Hopkins, MIT, Cal, Cal Tech, UCLA, Northwestern, and so on...

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

I usually have heard that it is indeed Vandy and not Rice that is the "Ivy of the South"

And I've heard the same about Emory. The truth is that it doesnt matter - no Southern school is comparable to Harvard.

 

[riceman04]

I usually have heard that it is indeed Vandy and not Rice that is the "Ivy of the South"

What did you say..............VANDY who? 😀 😀
That's b/c vandy is larger!

Pls chk the rankings (rice has slipped alot since I matriculated in 2000 and graduated in 2004)! But it is still higher than Vandy and Emory!
Those people at Vandy are HATERS!

No really, Rice was first initiated by members of the Board at Princeton University. We have their unwanted mascot (the owl).

Princeton is our big brother university.

 

[SarahGM]

It's extremely hard to believe that the school would give out B+ and A- to the average student in every class except for the pre-med classes. The grades on that list are consistent all the way down.

Um, okay... I'm lying ??? 🙄

In fact, it does make sense... as premed classes are, as in many other schools, WEED OUT classes.

 

[riceman04]

And I've heard the same about Emory. The truth is that it doesnt matter - no Southern school is comparable to Harvard.

You are right b/c Haaaaaaaaaaaaaavaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad has the largest endowment, and is the freakin oldest

 

[g3pro]

Knowing that my grades are worth more than what students get at Ivy Leagues is truly rewarding. 👍

 

[SarahGM]

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~reg/courses/medians/05w.html

Here you go. Like I said, Bio 15 and 16 both have medians of B-.

IN ADDITION, for the rest of you skeptics -- Dartmouth prints out the median of each class ON ITS TRANSCRIPTS. That way, adcoms can **see** how well you did compared to the rest of the class, thus negating the effects of grade inflation.

 

[g3pro]

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~reg/courses/medians/05w.html

Here you go. Like I said, Bio 15 and 16 both have medians of B-.

IN ADDITION, for the rest of you skeptics -- Dartmouth prints out the median of each class ON ITS TRANSCRIPTS. That way, adcoms can **see** how well you did compared to the rest of the class, thus negating the effects of grade inflation.

Wow, it must suck to have a median of B- in two classes when everyone else has medians at C's.

 

[riceman04]

Knowing that my grades are worth more than what students get at Ivy Leagues is truly rewarding. 👍

Unfortunately for you only psychologically rewarding!
No one else sees it that way!
Why?..................................b/c no one cares.

 

[blue2000]

It's an interesting thought experiment. Please read this post with the understanding that I'm not talking about specific students, or hating on state schools in any way.

We all know that many of the Ivies have matriculants that had, on average, GPAs and SAT scores that were higher than the average state school matriculant. Let's say, that the exact same professor taught O-chem at Dartmouth and UNH. She taught the exact same material, had the same TAs in lab, offered everything identically. Then she gives the same test to both groups.

What if the average is significantly higher at Dartmouth than UNH? Should the students who got 80% of the material right at UNH get an A, and the students who got 80% of the material right at Dartmouth get a B-? Students at Ivy League schools are students who have a history of performing well on assessments (NOT saying they are smarter, etc). Just that it stands to reason that the average student at Dartmouth may be different than the average student at UNH.

I'm not saying that this is the only reason grade inflation occurs -- in fact, it's a lot more complicated and does have some nasty overtones of entitlement when it comes to Ivy league expectations. But it's something to think about. Also, it's why, love it or hate it, the MCAT matters.

 

[stifler]

how about one of your dartmouth ppl help me figure out what physical chemistry is like at dartmouth cuz i might be heading over in a year to take it and to study away

 

[fullefect1]

There is grade inflation at every school... u just have to find the right (easier in grading) professor.... thats how I like to keep my GPA up at a nice level.

 

[JDAWG07]

Just thought I would add my input... I went to college at my state school and was a member of the honors college. It was sort of like an Ivy league school within the larger university. (It is considered one of the best honors colleges. According to Reader’s Digest, a comparison of SAT scores for the middle 50 percent of incoming students to the honors college, places the college second among all Ivy League institutions, trailing only Harvard and Princeton.)

The difference in quality between the honors and “regular” version of a typical science class was huge. Honors classes were almost exclusively taught by top ranking faculty, and always discussed the subject matter in much more depth. Students are basically guaranteed to learn more by taking an honors class over the regular version,… a lot more. However, the grading was MUCH more lenient in my honors classes, with averages generally around B+/A-. I knew students that would purposely take an honors class over the regular version in order to take advantage of “the curve.” I believe the justification behind the more lenient grading was to not punish students that were willing to push themselves further by taking honors classes.

 

[SarahGM]

how about one of your dartmouth ppl help me figure out what physical chemistry is like at dartmouth cuz i might be heading over in a year to take it and to study away

It's hard. I had really, really intelligent friends who moaned and groaned about it. My friend got a 42 on the MCAT and a D in the class.

Personally, I never took it.

 

[stifler]

It's hard. I had really, really intelligent friends who moaned and groaned about it. My friend got a 42 on the MCAT and a D in the class.

Personally, I never took it.

omfg. so going to dartmouth to avoid it at my school isnt a good choice? idk chem 62 according to the median grade thingy had a median grade of B+ i think.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I have taken classes at my local state university (and a good one too, Stony Brook) when I was in high school, and the classes were MUCH easier than at Dartmouth. So, it wouldn't be fair for Dartmouth or any other excellent institution to give C's for work which at other schools might be worth a B+/A-. I am not a state school trashing snob, I know there are really excellent ones and that it isn't easy at any school, but I am really weary of the trashing of the top schools as "easy." They aren't. Dartmouth and other excellent schools would be hurting their students by giving them C's for work which at 90-95% of other colleges and universities would be graded quite a bit higher.

As for pre-meds, what Sarah and others have said is true. In the upper level humanities classes, the median was consistently around B+ or A-. Way inflated. In the science classes and especially the pre-med classes, the medians were around B-. I don't know of a C+ median, but it may have existed.

And besides, if you want to trash any of the Ivys, go for Harvard, which is just absurd. Princeton has cracked down. They used to give a lot of A+, but they are now crusading against that. As far as I could tell from other students stories, Dartmouth is at the lower end of the Ivy grade inflation spectrum, around where Columbia is. And Cornell inflates by far the least, probably because of its class size.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

omfg. so going to dartmouth to avoid it at my school isnt a good choice? idk chem 62 according to the median grade thingy had a median grade of B+ i think.

I took 61 at Dartmouth and then a graduate statistical mechanics class, and they weren't easy. Got an A-, and the median was a B-, but it wasn't an easy class, even though the 60s are the "lower" sequences.

There is also a 71, 72, 73 sequence of three physical chemistry classes. I have TAed some and audited some, and they are really excellent. But they are quite as hard as upper level physics classes that I have taken, including mathematical techniques like geometric series, partial fraction decomposition, integrations of bizarre logarithm formulas, etc.

I'm not sure, but I think in the past they also did some stuff on elliptical integrals for exact solutions to certain kinetics topics. They don't do that anymore, which makes sense, since even the physics department here didn't teach elliptic integrals for exact solutions of pendulum mechanics.

 

[DrBowtie]

With that being said, it would be fair to give those people C's if the Dartmouth reputation allowed for people with C averages to be viewed equal to people with B averages elsewhere. That is where the name would equalize it.

With the current system, they are often getting an advantage because they are getting inflation not only from the school but by adcoms as well.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

With that being said, it would be fair to give those people C's if the Dartmouth reputation allowed for people with C averages to be viewed equal to people with B averages elsewhere. That is where the name would equalize it.

With the current system, they are often getting an advantage because they are getting inflation not only from the school but by adcoms as well.

This is very legitimate: if they want to have the name, then they have to have the standards. The problem with this is future employment. If Dartmouth gives out Cs for work that would earn a B+ or even higher at a weaker school, how do you think their pre-meds will fare? Unfortunately, initial employment and ESPECIALLY admission to graduate/professional schools can be very GPA driven. Dartmouth and other excellent schools would thereby be hurting their students. And future employment connects with reputation in the public eye, in the eye of other institutions, alumni donations, etc.

Personally, and I wanted to comment on this before, I think this is why Cornell students in my experience fared somewhat less successfully as pre-meds than the people at Dartmouth and the more inflating Ivys. Perhaps the grades are more deserved at Cornell, but the GPAs suffer. This is just my layman's view, so those who know better, please correct me.

 

[riceman04]

how about one of your dartmouth ppl help me figure out what physical chemistry is like at dartmouth cuz i might be heading over in a year to take it and to study away

Are you close to New Hampshire? If not, why spend all that extra money?

 

[physiclas87]

from mdapplicants.com:

You searched for applicants:
Whose applications are complete
Undergraduate College contains "dartmouth"

The following profiles matched your search:
00477 Dartmouth, 37 MCAT, 3.60 GPA, applied 2003
02612 Dartmouth, 29 MCAT, 3.20 GPA, applied 2005
00212 Dartmouth College, 31 MCAT, 3.40 GPA, applied 2003
01258 Dartmouth College, 34 MCAT, 3.69 GPA, applied 2004
00866 Dartmouth College, 39 MCAT, 3.40 GPA, applied 2003
00426 Dartmouth College, 43 MCAT, 3.25 GPA, applied 2003
02638 Dartmouth College, 32 MCAT, 3.39 GPA, applied 2005
00215 Dartmouth College, 37 MCAT, 3.65 GPA, applied 2003
01293 Dartmouth College, 39 MCAT, 3.51 GPA, applied 2004
01404 Dartmouth College, 37 MCAT, 3.70 GPA, applied 2004
03121 Dartmouth College, 37 MCAT, 3.92 GPA, applied 2005
00585 Dartmouth College, 32 MCAT, 3.50 GPA, applied 2003
01435 Dartmouth College, 39 MCAT, 3.74 GPA, applied 2004
00960 Dartmouth College, 35 MCAT, 3.65 GPA, applied 2004
00618 Dartmouth College, 38 MCAT, 3.76 GPA, applied 2003
00589 Dartmouth College, 39 MCAT, 3.58 GPA, applied 2003
01604 Dartmouth College, 42 MCAT, 3.91 GPA, applied 2004
01333 Dartmouth College, 34 MCAT, 3.63 GPA, applied 2004
00793 Dartmouth College, 29 MCAT, 3.20 GPA, applied 2001
03231 Dartmouth College, 39 MCAT, 3.81 GPA, applied 2005
00465 Dartmouth College, 31 MCAT, 3.36 GPA, applied 2003
01896 Dartmouth College, 30 MCAT, 3.30 GPA, applied 2004

22 results in set, 35.5 average MCAT, 3.58 average GPA. Search took 1.56 seconds.

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conclusion: grade inflation at dartmouth: no, not really.

 

[stifler]

Are you close to New Hampshire? If not, why spend all that extra money?

cuz my tuition is covered by a full merit scholarship so doesnt matter where i study away.

 

[LabMonster]

 

[Fed Meat]

I did an assessment on this a few years ago.

The median GPA for a graduating student at Dartmouth was a 3.31, and it was actually one of the lowest medians in the Ivies (only Cornell's median was lower). Most state schools ranged somewhere between 3.0-3.1 (including UVA, Berkeley, and UCLA, all between 3.05 and 3.1).

The median at Princeton, Havard, and Brown used to be around 3.45. I think Princeton has stiffened things up a bit. Georgetown had been over a 3.5. I think they were the most inflated in the country.

Tougher grading top schools were Cornell, Emory, Rice, and Chicago. Vandy may have been in this group, as well; I don't remember.

 

[riceman04]

I did an assessment on this a few years ago.

The median GPA for a graduating student at Dartmouth was a 3.31, and it was actually one of the lowest medians in the Ivies (only Cornell's median was lower). Most state schools ranged somewhere between 3.0-3.1 (including UVA, Berkeley, and UCLA, all between 3.05 and 3.1).

The median at Princeton, Havard, and Brown used to be around 3.45. I think Princeton has stiffened things up a bit. Georgetown had been over a 3.5. I think they were the most inflated in the country.

Tougher grading top schools were Cornell, Emory, Rice, and Chicago. Vandy may have been in this group, as well; I don't remember.

THAT'S RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CUZ I SURELY DID NOT BENEFIT FROM NO FREAKIN INFLATION.
ORGO - MEAN SET AT A C FREAKIN MINUS
BIOC - HARD AS HELL
GENETICS - OMG....PLEASE NO CUSSING RIGHT NOW
PHYSICAL CHEM - UMMMMMM..............BRAIN DEAD, FLATLINED, TACHYCARDIA?..NOPE...BRADYCARDIA?....NOPE, NOCARDIA?.....YEP!
At rice: GPA = grade point assasination
No really my friend from my alma mater (GO OWLS, 2003 college world series champs) said that when she went on interviews during this past app system all the adcoms were asking her how she managed to maintain a 3.4 at Rice b/c they try to kill your gpa.

 

[wetlightning]

THAT'S RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CUZ I SURELY DID NOT BENEFIT FROM NO FREAKIN INFLATION.
ORGO - MEAN SET AT A C FREAKIN MINUS
BIOC - HARD AS HELL
GENETICS - OMG....PLEASE NO CUSSING RIGHT NOW
PHYSICAL CHEM - UMMMMMM..............BRAIN DEAD, FLATLINED, TACHYCARDIA?..NOPE...BRADYCARDIA?....NOPE, NOCARDIA?.....YEP!
At rice: GPA = grade point assasination
No really my friend from my alma mater (GO OWLS, 2003 college world series champs) said that when she went on interviews during this past app system all the adcoms were asking her how she managed to maintain a 3.4 at Rice b/c they try to kill your gpa.

THAT SOUNDS LIKE WAKE FOREST!!!! another top 30 school with grading from hell.....😱 😱

our sci class median is C-, and our health committee sends out a letter to med schools informing them that only the top 25% of the class at WFU graduates with a 3.3 or above......

hopefully duke will keep this in mind when they see my app! rumor has it that they multiply WFU gpa's by 1.1 to equalize them, but i'm sure it's all totally false

 

[SarahGM]

With the current system, they are often getting an advantage because they are getting inflation not only from the school but by adcoms as well.

How do we get inflation from the school? As I said, the means for each class are published next to the student's grades for each class right on the transcript, for adcoms to see.

 

[Deleted member 72527]

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~reg/courses/medians/05w.html

Here you go. Like I said, Bio 15 and 16 both have medians of B-.

IN ADDITION, for the rest of you skeptics -- Dartmouth prints out the median of each class ON ITS TRANSCRIPTS. That way, adcoms can **see** how well you did compared to the rest of the class, thus negating the effects of grade inflation.

STill inflated...every pre-med class I took, at a well-known, competitive liberal arts college had an average of a C. Killed me.