If you could change anything about the Admissions Process.....

[Mike MacKinnon]

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Well I added a Poll but also interested in what you all think a 👍 s well!

 

[.edu-MD]

I vote for making it cheaper and less drawn out. I mean, from June (for those filing at the earliest time) to the following August/Sept (for those waitlisted)??

 

[blee]

If I would change anything, I would want adcoms to place greater weight on recent coursework.

But, to be honest, I don't think there is much to be changed at all. Sure, it's expensive and stressful. But we're talking about a large pool of successful, motivated students all competing for a limited number of seats, so limited that less than half will make it in any given year. The process takes into account a 4+ year history of school work, showing academic endurance and reserve; an eight-hour standardized test that shows reasoning and critical thinking; an ECs list and personal statement that show some amount of character and inner strength. Finally, there is a face-to-face meeting that judges whether a candidate is a good fit for the school and vice-versa. Given the large number of applicants, sometimes people will fall through the cracks, but for the most part, I think it works. (I thought so before I applied, but I suppose I'm on the other side of things now.)

Non-trads might benefit if adcoms took more recent grades into greater consideration for everyone. There are rumors that many schools already do this. Anything else that specifically favors non-trads would just be unfair to everyone else.

 

[Truth74]

If I would change anything, I would want adcoms to place greater weight on recent coursework.

But, to be honest, I don't think there is much to be changed at all. Sure, it's expensive and stressful. But we're talking about a large pool of successful, motivated students all competing for a limited number of seats, so limited that less than half will make it in any given year. The process takes into account a 4+ year history of school work, showing academic endurance and reserve; an eight-hour standardized test that shows reasoning and critical thinking; an ECs list and personal statement that show some amount of character and inner strength. Finally, there is a face-to-face meeting that judges whether a candidate is a good fit for the school and vice-versa. Given the large number of applicants, sometimes people will fall through the cracks, but for the most part, I think it works. (I thought so before I applied, but I suppose I'm on the other side of things now.)

Non-trads might benefit if adcoms took more recent grades into greater consideration for everyone. There are rumors that many schools already do this. Anything else that specifically favors non-trads would just be unfair to everyone else.

I whole heartedly agree. This would put everyone on a more even playing field. I'm sure some trads would benefit as well. There would be less stress for everyone if this were to happen for all of the schools.

 

[roboyce]

While not really part of the admissions process, I wish I could change the way that older students are viewed when it comes to financial aid. Why is it that medical schools require us to submit our parents' tax returns when many other graduate programs consider non-traditional students to be financially independent. My parents have not supported me financially over the last six years and I do not expect them to contribute to my medical education. It just seems crazy to me that we are thrown into the same category as students directly out of school, many of whom are still claimed as dependents by their parents. I mean look, I was in the military, I led men into combat in Iraq, but somehow schools still think I'm under the wing of my parents! The best solution would be to develop some sort of progressive scale that reduces your expected parental contribution the longer you have been financially independent. I know that some schools allow you to claim financial independence if you can show tax returns for more than eight years, but what is the difference between six and eight years? I just find this whole topic frustrating. I will certainly be writing long letters to the financial aid offices of every school trying to lay out my case...for better or worse.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

While not really part of the admissions process, I wish I could change the way that older students are viewed when it comes to financial aid. Why is it that medical schools require us to submit our parents' tax returns when many other graduate programs consider non-traditional students to be financially independent. My parents have not supported me financially over the last six years and I do not expect them to contribute to my medical education. It just seems crazy to me that we are thrown into the same category as students directly out of school, many of whom are still claimed as dependents by their parents. I mean look, I was in the military, I led men into combat in Iraq, but somehow schools still think I'm under the wing of my parents! The best solution would be to develop some sort of progressive scale that reduces your expected parental contribution the longer you have been financially independent. I know that some schools allow you to claim financial independence if you can show tax returns for more than eight years, but what is the difference between six and eight years? I just find this whole topic frustrating. I will certainly be writing long letters to the financial aid offices of every school trying to lay out my case...for better or worse.

I agree that it's ridiculous to have to submit your parental information when you're an adult who supports yourself and won't receive any financial assistance from your parents. Luckily, the parental income doesn't count for much in determining aid. Even if you don't qualify for financial need grants, you can still get the aid you need to pay for school. You may have to borrow more, but that's not the end of the world.

 

[shminger]

While not really part of the admissions process, I wish I could change the way that older students are viewed when it comes to financial aid. Why is it that medical schools require us to submit our parents' tax returns when many other graduate programs consider non-traditional students to be financially independent. My parents have not supported me financially over the last six years and I do not expect them to contribute to my medical education. It just seems crazy to me that we are thrown into the same category as students directly out of school, many of whom are still claimed as dependents by their parents. I mean look, I was in the military, I led men into combat in Iraq, but somehow schools still think I'm under the wing of my parents! The best solution would be to develop some sort of progressive scale that reduces your expected parental contribution the longer you have been financially independent. I know that some schools allow you to claim financial independence if you can show tax returns for more than eight years, but what is the difference between six and eight years? I just find this whole topic frustrating. I will certainly be writing long letters to the financial aid offices of every school trying to lay out my case...for better or worse.

No kidding, I'm married for crying out loud....Could I still be supported by my parents?

 

[robh]

While not really part of the admissions process, I wish I could change the way that older students are viewed when it comes to financial aid. Why is it that medical schools require us to submit our parents' tax returns when many other graduate programs consider non-traditional students to be financially independent. My parents have not supported me financially over the last six years and I do not expect them to contribute to my medical education. It just seems crazy to me that we are thrown into the same category as students directly out of school, many of whom are still claimed as dependents by their parents. I mean look, I was in the military, I led men into combat in Iraq, but somehow schools still think I'm under the wing of my parents! The best solution would be to develop some sort of progressive scale that reduces your expected parental contribution the longer you have been financially independent. I know that some schools allow you to claim financial independence if you can show tax returns for more than eight years, but what is the difference between six and eight years? I just find this whole topic frustrating. I will certainly be writing long letters to the financial aid offices of every school trying to lay out my case...for better or worse.

I asked three different financial aid directors this same basic question. I got the same answer from all three, so I think I'm getting the correct answer.

As a graduate student you are automatically considered independent from your parents from the federal (FAFSA) point of view. You are not required to submit your parental information on your FAFSA forms for the purpose of qualifying for federal financial aid for medical school. This means that your eligibility for aid money is calculated without reference to parental ability to pay.

The reason some medical schools ask for parental information is to assess your need for school supplied money. This is a school requirement, not a FAFSA requirement. I agree this is lame, but that is their procedure. I assume that they will take into account the fact that we have been emancipated for a long time. The key thing to remember is that you will be granted enough aid to finish school, provided you have good credit. The only question is the source of the money. If you can get grants from your medical school, it reduces the amount you must take in loans.

 

[roboyce]

No kidding, I'm married for crying out loud....Could I still be supported by my parents?

Personally, I'm thinking I might move my future bride-to-be (I know you're out there somewhere) into my parents' basement...save a little money. For some reason, I just can't find any takers. 😉

 

[QofQuimica]

Some schools DO consider you independent for institutional financial aid if you are over age 30. Of course, many of you are in your late twenties, or are applying/matriculating at schools that don't do this, so it's not going to help you. If you are over age 30, I suggest that you ask your school(s) whether you are independent for institutional need-based aid. Some schools do it and some don't, in my experience. I doubt I will attend a school that does not, for obvious reasons. 😉

What would I change about this process....no secondaries. Why can't the AMCAS be the complete app? Also, we should be able to send our LORs directly to AMCAS to pass on to the schools; my pharmacy students are able to do this with PHARMCAS.

 

[Orthodoc40]

I'd make the timing better - so that if you want to take the August MCAT, and you find out your scores aren't too good, you didn't waste all that money on applications in September to be on time. Actually I guess that means I'd change the timing of the MCAT, not the process... oh well.
I'd definitely make it cheaper.
Or I'd make it so that you only had to pay a secondary application fee if you were invited to interview. Otherwise it seems like the schools just invite you to fill out the secondary so they can get more money to reject you.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

What would I change about this process....no secondaries. Why can't the AMCAS be the complete app? Also, we should be able to send our LORs directly to AMCAS to pass on to the schools; my pharmacy students are able to do this with PHARMCAS.

Just what I've been saying! 🙂 With law school applications, there's a centralized service like amcas that handles LORs. It's got to be simpler both for applicants and the schools to do it that way. Interfolio's awesome, but it gets pricey. Yeah, secondaries also seem superfluous in most cases. Seriously, the bulk of the secondaries I completed were in whole or in part repetition of what was on my amcas application.

 

[roboyce]

Yeah, secondaries also seem superfluous in most cases. Seriously, the bulk of the secondaries I completed were in whole or in part repetition of what was on my amcas application.

One counter-point I would offer is that sometimes a thorough secondary helps the school to weed out many of the applicants that don't really want to go there. The first school that comes to mind is Duke, which had nine essays I believe. Just take a look at MDApps and see how many people decided not to turn in the secondary because of the work involved. Trust me, if I wasn't really in love with the school, I probably would have put it on the back burner as well, but because it's one of my top choices, I sat down and slogged through it.

Additionally, I feel that some of the secondaries really did allow me to present a better picture of myself, beyond the scope of the AMCAS essay. I especially think that this is valuable to non-traditionals who can really shine by demonstrating their greater sense of clarity and maturity. Then again, there are those schools like UPenn that ask only for your parents name and your money. That, certainly, is a waste.

 

[.edu-MD]

I'd make the timing better - so that if you want to take the August MCAT, and you find out your scores aren't too good, you didn't waste all that money on applications in September to be on time. Actually I guess that means I'd change the timing of the MCAT, not the process... oh well.
I'd definitely make it cheaper.
Or I'd make it so that you only had to pay a secondary application fee if you were invited to interview. Otherwise it seems like the schools just invite you to fill out the secondary so they can get more money to reject you.

That August MCAT used to be in September...I don't see why they just don't make it like the GRE (and USMLE now I think) and let you take it anytime on the computer. I guess once it's all computerized that may come...

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Well

One thing i really see making a difference is the Testing center MCAT's. This will help alot! Currently with only 2 options for writing it seems we are often forced into writing early, or have alot of lag time before the next MCAT. This often (from threads on here) causes people to basically lose a whole year.

 

[HunterGatherer]

i think most of the suggestions would make the playing field a bit unfair. It's harder for us nontrads but we still can get into school.

The only idea I would agree with is weighing recent coursework more than older work. This suggests that older coursework may have low grades. This is actually factored into Osteopathic admissions since they do not average retakes. This is probably the simplest way to implement this suggestion by keeping the old good grades and allowing for more recent grades to replace past poor performance.

 

[ShyRem]

1. while putting all your coursework into AMCAS, I think it would be fair for no grades older than, say, 10 years to be counted towads your GPA.

2. no secondaries. Why pay AMCAS all that money and then turn around and pay more money to answer lots of the same questions? If you're going to have a centralized application process, then stinkin' centralize it.

3. streamline the whole process. All the early decision folks should be interviewed and DONE by 9/1. Decisions out by 9/15. Interview regular folks for 3 months until 12/31. Decisions out by 1/31. You should only be able to hold onto a maximum of 5 acceptances at any one time - any more than that and you should bump one. Final decisions by 3/31. Waitlist movement until 5/31. Done. Period. With financial penalties for those who change their minds after 5/31. Make deposits to hold seats expensive (but totally refundable until 3/31, even DO schools) - like $500 or $1K or something. It would make folks think about whether they REALLY want to go there. And if we computerize this, refunds could take as little as 48 hours (electronic movement of monies). Make all acceptances a centralized process. Heck, if AMCAS got expanded a little bit, all stuff could go through there - status for applications, interviews, acceptance/rejection/waitlist.

Alternately, make a match process (similar to residency). You get to rank your choices after interviews, they rank you, you find out where you go on 3/1. Change your mind and it should be costly.

The longer we draw this whole thing out, the harder it is on the neurotic psyches of pre-meds. Not to mention it's hard to plan for a nontrad, too. Get it done, get it over with, streamline the whole process, and get an answer before summer.

The waiting is the worst. Not hearing anything from certain schools is included in that. This process really needs an overhaul.

 

[jbone]

1. while putting all your coursework into AMCAS, I think it would be fair for no grades older than, say, 10 years to be counted towads your GPA.

2. no secondaries. Why pay AMCAS all that money and then turn around and pay more money to answer lots of the same questions? If you're going to have a centralized application process, then stinkin' centralize it.

3. streamline the whole process. All the early decision folks should be interviewed and DONE by 9/1. Decisions out by 9/15. Interview regular folks for 3 months until 12/31. Decisions out by 1/31. You should only be able to hold onto a maximum of 5 acceptances at any one time - any more than that and you should bump one. Final decisions by 3/31. Waitlist movement until 5/31. Done. Period. With financial penalties for those who change their minds after 5/31. Make deposits to hold seats expensive (but totally refundable until 3/31, even DO schools) - like $500 or $1K or something. It would make folks think about whether they REALLY want to go there. And if we computerize this, refunds could take as little as 48 hours (electronic movement of monies). Make all acceptances a centralized process. Heck, if AMCAS got expanded a little bit, all stuff could go through there - status for applications, interviews, acceptance/rejection/waitlist.

Alternately, make a match process (similar to residency). You get to rank your choices after interviews, they rank you, you find out where you go on 3/1. Change your mind and it should be costly.

The longer we draw this whole thing out, the harder it is on the neurotic psyches of pre-meds. Not to mention it's hard to plan for a nontrad, too. Get it done, get it over with, streamline the whole process, and get an answer before summer.

The waiting is the worst. Not hearing anything from certain schools is included in that. This process really needs an overhaul.

Shy, you stole the words right out of my mouth. In fact, THIS IS MY POST! 😉
The wait process is totally rediculous. Sick of the waiting game. Kill me please. 🙁

 

[.edu-MD]

.

 

[Febrifuge]

As I've been working on my post-bac, I've been doing a lot of shadowing. So I'm seeing the application-building process as well as the day-to-day work of physicians, close up. Those two things together have given me a perspective that seems to have really radicalized me. I'm almost to the point now where I'd like to see them do away with GPA requirements altogether, assuming some other condition/s was/were met. I don't have the foggiest what those conditions might be, but a previous degree plus some life experience sure feel valuable.

The correlation between academic performance in pre-reqs and academic performance in med school may be somewhat strong (not that I'm totally convinced of that, either). But I'm becoming more and more skeptical about the correlation between academic performance and good doctoring... and I say this at a time when my grades are better than they've ever been. It was never my life's ambition to be a great health sciences student, you know?

Obviously, it's unrealistic to expect the system to acknowledge the gap between "book larnin'" and career potential... and to be fair, I can't think of a better way to discern who in the application pile is most likely to do well in school. But since we're brainstorming, and can vote for one of several unrealistic measures, that's the one I'd like to see changed, somehow. 😀

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Feb.

I totally agree. There are many unseen variables which could affect GPA. I had one class (biochem) where the prof stated "A C in my class is like an A in any other class". True to his words, the average grade was a C- and only 4 of us got B-'s. Now, that (7 years ago) effects my GPA yet is no indication of ability.

We have all asked around about prof's, some are easy and everyone does well and vice-versa. Some profs test you like that subject is you PhD plan (b/c it was theirs) and others treat you like high school students and spoon feed. Many people balk at CC classes, but I have taken CC classes which were MUCH harder than any of the Univ. classes i took over 2 degrees.

I dont know what the answer is, but standardized testing like the MCAT and GPA scores do not always translate into excellent physicians. For the life of me, i cannot figure out what the MCAT is supposed to test anyway. All that science in one huge test tells them what exactly? How well I can memorize concepts unrelated to medicine? I just dont see the co-relation even though I have read about it & the USMLE/COMLEX scores (again standardized tests).

I understand there has to be an easy way to "cut the fat" in the app process which has some guarentee for success. Schools cannot interview and hear the "story" of everyone. What I wonder is why some more consideration isnt taken into account with Non-Trads, it isnt like we are more than 20% of any application process (and thats being VERY liberal).

Anywho, off the soapbox!

 

[blee]

Don't forget that medical school is still school, and a relatively difficult one at that. Success in medical school requires skill and experience with memorization, reasoning, critical thinking, synthesis of voluminous information -- all things that are practiced during your pre-reqs and tested on the MCAT. Sorry, but there isn't a more equitable way of sorting out the best from the good.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

too true!

In a perfect world there would be 😉 In our world, there simply isnt a better way.

While i understand what you are saying blee, i could easily prove my capability in those areas based on my current experience and knowledge base. Unfortunately, this simply isnt even possible (at least i cant think of a way).

 

[MoosePilot]

Well, I don't know if it's a change, because I don't know what schools do now. I suspect many do something similar, or I would have never gotten in, but I think it's important that schools consider recent activity more closely than chronologically distant activity, whether it's MCAT, GPA, ECs, or whatever.

It's tough for me to imagine that someone could ruin their chances for med school forever with an extremely low GPA even if they were capable of 4.0 work later. People grow, change, and find motivation and discipline. I favor the idea of an academic "second chance".

Luckily for me, I've got one!! 😀

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Moose

Good point! I didnt have a horrible GPA from university, ended up with a 3.1 but i did get an A in beer-101. In anycase, all my pre reqs are A's to date. I just feel bad for those who had really horrible GPA's simply because of some mispent youth (A+ in Beer-101 & Not-going-to-class-440).

🙂

 

[blee]

Moose

Good point! I didnt have a horrible GPA from university, ended up with a 3.1 but i did get an A in beer-101. In anycase, all my pre reqs are A's to date. I just feel bad for those who had really horrible GPA's simply because of some mispent youth (A+ in Beer-101 & Not-going-to-class-440).

🙂

At the same time, what does that say about the "spent youth" -- the ones who went to class, studied hard, and got good grades? No wonder it's so hard for us losers. 🙂

I think that schools do put somewhat more weight on recent coursework, but perhaps this practice is less common in the more highly ranked schools. It kind of makes sense; institutions with reputations to protect would be more conservative with their selection process. Four years of 3.7+ work is probably more attractive and a safer bet than four years of, say, 2.75 (who, me?) followed by work experience and just one year of high performance in school.

 

[ShyRem]

But there are plenty of schools that screen on pure bottom line numbers alone. And for someone like me with a 1.7 from 20 years ago but 3.6 in the 140 credits done in the last 3 years I get hosed in those schools that only look at the bottom number alone. Lots of places don't actually read your transcripts for the first screening. The just look at the numbers. I think the recent 140 credits should count more than the 40 credits from 20 years ago. But they don't at all places (*cough* *cough* my state school *cough* *cough*).

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

ShyRem

This is very true. While I am simply in the pre req stages of my journey, as with many non-trads I have done alot of research on admissions, schools and choices. It seems that MD schools and Ivy league schools have a bent toward the "numbers get you past the first app" attitude.

I believe this is often why non-trads go the DO route (or caribbean med school route). While the qualifications to get in are still serious, there seems to be more leeway for the non-trad with some "history". 🙂

In anycase, we just simply have to identify those schools and not waste the app money on them.

 

[gdbaby]

The old grades seem to be holding some perfectly bright, qualified non-trads back so I chose that one. However, I think that if I could change one thing about the non-trad admissions process (granted, in an ideal world) I would like to be considered first for open spots off the wait list.

I was thinking about this this morning on my run. I am married with a child and I own my house in Colorado. I have not been offered an interview at Colorado yet, but if I do it will probably be for the waitlist. I have two OOS acceptances so I am financially and mentally getting ready to make that move. BUT what if I do get an interview, get waitlisted and the accept me at the beginning of August! Do I break a rental agreement on our house? How does my husband, who had to resign from his job to move to Iowa find work? We had reasonable day care for our son that required a lottery drawing to get into, how do I find quality care at short notice?

Wow. Didn't mean to rant. I am mad at Colorado right now.

 

[beefballs]

secondaries are nothing but a sham, especially the unsolicited ones who encourage you to apply because of your good MCAT (staring at you money grubbing MCW, USC,LECOM) you get peoples hopes up that you are interested yet fail to mention you send these out to everybody @ or above some score. AMCAS costs about 500 then about $80 per secondary.

I disagree with exlawgirl about interfolio being pricey. I would rather spend the $60 total then have to ride professors to send out the letters to each school. The money is well worth the alternative-just my opinion though

 

[Raven Feather]

I think the med schools should pay for our flights to attend their interviews! 😀 A lot of other grad school programs do!

 

[beefballs]

I think the med schools should pay for our flights to attend their interviews! 😀 A lot of other grad school programs do!

yes because they are graduates schools and you work on projects which bring in money to the university, medical school is a PROFESSIONAL school , like law school.