If you could change the admissions process...

BU Medical Sciences
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Floyd G said:
Have a binding Early Decision option that doesn't delay all of your other applications until October (or whenever it is). If accepted Early all your remaining apps get withdrawn automatically. With so many schools focused on whether they are really your first choice, this seems like a no-brainer.
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Good idea!
 
The whole match thing here in Texas is pretty ridiculous, people who have gone through it and gotten accepted even have a hard time explaining it.
 
GiantFetus said:
I completely disagree, not to step on your toes too blatantly.<br />
<br />
If you want the prestige of being a physician..you better be ready to start somewhere. There are many things to learn from changing bed linens. Like: how to deal with sick people, how to deal with emergency situations, how to network. It's what you make of it. <br />
<br />
And shadowing? OMG.. of course it is necessary and might as well be mandatory. Honestly, you will look like a complete fool if you go through medical school not knowing what you're getting into. Volunteering and shadowing do both these things for you. And, who said parents had to network for you? I've made many a friend through extracurriculars that are VERY successful physicians completely willing to give undergrads a chance.
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I'm sorry, but... the Standard Premed ER Experience(TM) helps you do none of those. The only thing you may get out of changing linens and giving water to patients is the satisfaction of doing for free what the person being paid $10-30/hr would have had to do and the scorn of most of the workers in the ER for getting in the way.

Emergency situations? Patient contacts? Hardly. Sure, you can 'network', but the cards are kind of stacked against you. To the ER staff, you're not the same as the sweet 70 year old woman who has been volunteering for 10 years, doing this because she wants to, you're the annoying pre-med who will probably jump ship in a few months like the last 100 premeds who volunteered there.

And as for shadowing, AllDaWei is right. Getting even 10 hours of shadowing when I was applying was like pulling teeth. I don't know where you are that physicians are so wonderful but it seems like most of the doctors I asked wanted little to do with it (mostly because of HIPPA), even my own PCP. However, my friends with physicians for a dad/mom/cousin/uncle-in-law-twice-removed could easily rack up millions of hours if they wanted to.
 
Roll undergraduate and medical education into a combined 6 year program. Students spend two years on basic physical sciences, then must pass an MCATesque test to advance to medical school proper. Those who do not gain competitive scores are released with the possibility to pursue a more conventional degree (and credits that transfer), and the option to reapply if they choose.

Bonus points for associating with local universities to let students co-enroll without applying if they fail to graduate the two year program.

Medical education should be more vocational and less of a crapshoot.
 
Interview fewer people. Why would any school interview 700+ and only accept <200?
 
I would make it so every applicant could pick a school that would have to interview them. This would be great for people who don't get any interviews to show what they're worth and maybe get lucky. It would also be great for people like me, who have an acceptance, but really want another school. Good God, I swear if they would just let me in the door to talk to them....
 
centrigeugle said:
Roll undergraduate and medical education into a combined 6 year program. Students spend two years on basic physical sciences, then must pass an MCATesque test to advance to medical school proper. Those who do not gain competitive scores are released with the possibility to pursue a more conventional degree (and credits that transfer), and the option to reapply if they choose.

Bonus points for associating with local universities to let students co-enroll without applying if they fail to graduate the two year program.

Medical education should be more vocational and less of a crapshoot.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised no one has said this yet, but I agree fully. Every other country has this sort of 6-year program, which helps reduce healthcare costs in the end because docs don't have never-ending debt to make up and charge for. I've taken Immunology, Microbiology, Physiology, Genetics, Anatomy, and a whole bunch of other upper-division classes in order to get my Bio degree that I'm just going to have to take again in medical school. Step back and ask yourself, how backwards is that?
 
centrigeugle said:
Roll undergraduate and medical education into a combined 6 year program. Students spend two years on basic physical sciences, then must pass an MCATesque test to advance to medical school proper. Those who do not gain competitive scores are released with the possibility to pursue a more conventional degree (and credits that transfer), and the option to reapply if they choose.

Bonus points for associating with local universities to let students co-enroll without applying if they fail to graduate the two year program.

Medical education should be more vocational and less of a crapshoot.
Click to expand...

Not everyone knows they want to go to medical school right out of high school..
 
Make everything same for each school...like all schools require a certain number of LOR. It doesn't get any more annoying than having to check each school
 
Have schools pay for interview transportation/lodging costs. They can fund it through secondary application fees. 😀

I'd also like to see the admissions process become non-rolling like it is for college. Maybe state schools can stay rolling. At the very least, it'd be great if we could get mandatory status updates from all schools that we're applying to at certain dates of the year, like October 15, December 15, March 15 or something. Monthly updates would be even better. Everybody is constantly checking their inbox, and it just feels so haphazard of when we'll hear back from schools (if at all).
 
I would try to figure out a way to make it so that applicants wouldn't have to send information in secondary apps that's already in one's AMCAS application.

I'd try to figure out a way to discourage people from writing flashy personal statements. Just answer the question "why medicine?" with a minimum amount of fluff.

Other than that... I know I absolutely hated the subjective nature of the process, but I can't think of anything better, and the more I think about it, the more I can't see admissions being a purely objective process, either. *shrug*
 
NickNaylor said:
If you think the personal statement is useful to admissions committees, you would be wrong. Most of them are pretty useless.
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They're very useful. You'd be surprised how lousy a PS can be; very useful for culling the applicant pool.
 
ManBroDude said:
I'm surprised no one has said this yet, but I agree fully. Every other country has this sort of 6-year program, which helps reduce healthcare costs in the end because docs don't have never-ending debt to make up and charge for. I've taken Immunology, Microbiology, Physiology, Genetics, Anatomy, and a whole bunch of other upper-division classes in order to get my Bio degree that I'm just going to have to take again in medical school. Step back and ask yourself, how backwards is that?
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Oh man, the people who slacked off their first 2 years are not gonna like that.
 
drizzt3117 said:
They're very useful. You'd be surprised how lousy a PS can be; very useful for culling the applicant pool.
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So true. Awhile ago when I was a PS editor on here, I got some absurdly bad essays to "edit" (if you want to call telling someone to start completely over editing). Agree that for the vast majority of people, the PS is a neutral factor, though.
 
ManBroDude said:
I'm surprised no one has said this yet, but I agree fully. Every other country has this sort of 6-year program, which helps reduce healthcare costs in the end because docs don't have never-ending debt to make up and charge for. I've taken Immunology, Microbiology, Physiology, Genetics, Anatomy, and a whole bunch of other upper-division classes in order to get my Bio degree that I'm just going to have to take again in medical school. Step back and ask yourself, how backwards is that?
Click to expand...

Hence why I am a chemistry major with a math minor. Which to be honest, I'm quite glad I had four years to complete this degree because I have learned many interesting things. I also know, it is not my cup of tea. But I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.

I think the main thing I would change is the timing of the application cycle. It feels like the start date is sooooo early.
 
ManBroDude said:
I'm surprised no one has said this yet, but I agree fully. Every other country has this sort of 6-year program, which helps reduce healthcare costs in the end because docs don't have never-ending debt to make up and charge for. I've taken Immunology, Microbiology, Physiology, Genetics, Anatomy, and a whole bunch of other upper-division classes in order to get my Bio degree that I'm just going to have to take again in medical school. Step back and ask yourself, how backwards is that?
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Agree. It's also fairly repetitive with the MCAT in terms of what information those grades can give an admissions committee

If it were feasible, I'd require medicine-related, non-science courses, such as bioethics or health policy. Imagine how much that little switch in emphasis might change "pre-med culture" in colleges. But I'm extremely biased, as a part-time history major. :laugh:
 
Some of the replies suggest that people want a more objective process. I would have to say the opposite - I would like to see a more subjective process.

My suggestions:

-No silent rejections (Must have a concrete interview invite or rejection within 'x' weeks after application has been submitted)

-More screening to reduce wasted secondary application fees (and the time of the applicants who spend hours revising their essays with a false glimmer of hope in their eyes)

-A webcam-based interview option to cut the cost of hotel, airfare, cab, etc. Of course, the traditional interview would still be available, but a webcam-based interview could be useful for students who would like to apply to more schools, but can't necessarily afford to travel to all the interviews

-More general transparency in the process

-Increased focus on extracurriculars and other parts of the app. I believe we are at a point in medical school admissions where there are people who are certainly intelligent enough to be doctors, but don't necessarily have the competitive stats - simply because of an increased number of applicants and not a proportional increase in medical school seats. I would like to see a shift away from the stats game that admissions has become.
 
ksmajmudar said:
Some of the replies suggest that people want a more objective process. I would have to say the opposite - I would like to see a more subjective process.

My suggestions:

-No silent rejections (Must have a concrete interview invite or rejection within 'x' weeks after application has been submitted)

-More screening to reduce wasted secondary application fees (and the time of the applicants who spend hours revising their essays with a false glimmer of hope in their eyes)

-A webcam-based interview option to cut the cost of hotel, airfare, cab, etc. Of course, the traditional interview would still be available, but a webcam-based interview could be useful for students who would like to apply to more schools, but can't necessarily afford to travel to all the interviews

-More general transparency in the process

-Increased focus on extracurriculars and other parts of the app. I believe we are at a point in medical school admissions where there are people who are certainly intelligent enough to be doctors, but don't necessarily have the competitive stats - simply because of an increased number of applicants and not a proportional increase in medical school seats. I would like to see a shift away from the stats game that admissions has become.
Click to expand...

I doubt that schools would stop sending out secondaries to applicants they know they will reject because it is such a cash cow. I think they should just eliminate the essays all-together, which at least will save time.
 
ksmajmudar said:
-A webcam-based interview option to cut the cost of hotel, airfare, cab, etc.
Click to expand...

Ugh, that would kill the only enjoyable aspect of the entire grueling application process.

Schools these days are tossing aside objective measures like gpa, mcat, and ECs and largely going with the utterly subjective concept of candidate "fit," whatever that's supposed to mean. You might as well turn the tables on them and see if the school and it environment is a good "fit" for you, and that's something you'd never learn from a webcam.

When I look back on the interview season, I think of the lobsters in Boston, the blues clubs in Chicago, cheap scotch and poker in a smoky dive in Reno, a ski trip to Bozeman, and the arts & brews festivals in Boulder. I have an upcoming interview in New Orleans, and I booked a room in the middle of the French Quarter for a whole week. There is so much you can learn about a school and surroundings by interviewing them in person, and in the long run the costs are negligible.

My suggested change would to delay the whole rolling process at rolling schools. Right now it is such a seller's market, the schools have way too many qualified candidates for their limited slots, and I'm not comfortable with how they allocate their limited resource of acceptances. By doing rolling admissions, they are rewarding students for an odd measurement (time of application) far and away above other measurements. Obviously a system that sells or auctions acceptances to the highest bidder would be even more repugnant. Allocating acceptances at random amongst the vast pool of qualified applicants seems to be the most palatable option.
 
MT Headed said:
Ugh, that would kill the only enjoyable aspect of the entire grueling application process.

Schools these days are tossing aside objective measures like gpa, mcat, and ECs and largely going with the utterly subjective concept of candidate "fit," whatever that's supposed to mean. You might as well turn the tables on them and see if the school and it environment is a good "fit" for you, and that's something you'd never learn from a webcam.

When I look back on the interview season, I think of the lobsters in Boston, the blues clubs in Chicago, cheap scotch and poker in a smoky dive in Reno, a ski trip to Bozeman, and the arts & brews festivals in Boulder. I have an upcoming interview in New Orleans, and I booked a room in the middle of the French Quarter for a whole week. There is so much you can learn about a school and surroundings by interviewing them in person, and in the long run the costs are negligible.

My suggested change would to delay the whole rolling process at rolling schools. Right now it is such a seller's market, the schools have way too many qualified candidates for their limited slots, and I'm not comfortable with how they allocate their limited resource of acceptances. By doing rolling admissions, they are rewarding students for an odd measurement (time of application) far and away above other measurements. Obviously a system that sells or auctions acceptances to the highest bidder would be even more repugnant. Allocating acceptances at random amongst the vast pool of qualified applicants seems to be the most palatable option.
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Is it just me or is this guy probably batman
 
mauberley said:
I would try to figure out a way to make it so that applicants wouldn't have to send information in secondary apps that's already in one's AMCAS application.

I'd try to figure out a way to discourage people from writing flashy personal statements. Just answer the question "why medicine?" with a minimum amount of fluff.

Other than that... I know I absolutely hated the subjective nature of the process, but I can't think of anything better, and the more I think about it, the more I can't see admissions being a purely objective process, either. *shrug*
Click to expand...

The first thing for sure. I hated having to re-enter and re-enter my pre-reqs. I would also add the, Will you be a student this academic year, if not, please explain how you will be spending your time? to the primary. Every school wanted to know this. It's really
Annoying to have to repeat oneself.
 
MIAYO said:
The first thing for sure. I hated having to re-enter and re-enter my pre-reqs. I would also add the, Will you be a student this academic year, if not, please explain how you will be spending your time? to the primary. Every school wanted to know this. It's really
Annoying to have to repeat oneself.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's pretty much the best suggestion in the thread.
 
ManBroDude said:
I'm surprised no one has said this yet, but I agree fully. Every other country has this sort of 6-year program, which helps reduce healthcare costs in the end because docs don't have never-ending debt to make up and charge for. I've taken Immunology, Microbiology, Physiology, Genetics, Anatomy, and a whole bunch of other upper-division classes in order to get my Bio degree that I'm just going to have to take again in medical school. Step back and ask yourself, how backwards is that?
Click to expand...
You didn't have to be a bio major or take all of those classes before med school.

In addition to that, you'd be surprised how "different" the med school versions of those courses are once you get there. I've taken several of those classes in undergrad too (was a bio major) and I can say I still learn a significant amount of new stuff in the med school versions. The focus is much different. An obvious example is biochemistry. In my undergrad class, the focus was on knowing every single step of metabolic pathways, intermediate structures, electron pushing, lab techniques, etc. On the other hand, in med school, they didn't emphasize knowing every single step in a pathway or knowing structures, etc. The focus was instead on understanding what the pathway is, how it feeds into other pathways, how other pathways feed into it, and a lot of emphasis was placed on regulation of these pathways. The course was infinitely more clinically oriented than the undergrad version (which makes sense).

So, don't think you'll be taking the same course again. Sure, your background will help out. But there will also be a significant amount of new things you learn. 🙂

With that being said, I don't think moving to a 6-year program after high school is the way to go. I prefer the college --> med school route, personally.
 
No prerequisites. Just the MCAT (which would be a reading comprehension and logic based test, not unlike the LSAT.) Wouldn't that be wonderful 🙄
 
Neurosis said:
No prerequisites. Just the MCAT (which would be a reading comprehension and logic based test, not unlike the LSAT.) Wouldn't that be wonderful 🙄
Click to expand...
Why would you want to put soo much stress on timed reading comprehension and reasoning, instead of the sciences? I certainly wouldn't get into med school if it was your way.
 
SellerAl said:
Why would you want to put soo much stress on timed reading comprehension and reasoning, instead of the sciences? I certainly wouldn't get into med school if it was your way.
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Well, I've always liked those type of tests tbh. However, I can't stand Chemistry/Physics (love Biology though). Besides, I thought the current MCAT tests reading comprehension/logic and background knowledge (Bio/Chem/Physics)
 
Kaushik said:
...snip...
With that being said, I don't think moving to a 6-year program after high school is the way to go. I prefer the college --> med school route, personally.
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate as to why you prefer the current route?

My opinion is that much of the undergraduate education is at best redundant and at worst totally inapplicable to clinical practice as a whole. Combined with the opaque application process and the frustratingly nebulous "soft requirements," four-year undergraduate seems to be little more than a filter to medical school. We shouldn't expect hopeful doctors to pay $X0,000+ just to see if they even can be a doctor. Maybe.

Even then, many of those who do everything right (and really, who knows what that even is?) don't get in until the second or third application cycle. The socioeconomic barriers to medical school are enormous and really shocked me when I started to realize how high they stacked. We need a streamlined process that can test the mettle of our country's would-be physicians, and then give them some modicum of security once they've begun it.

Look, it took me several years into undergraduate to decide I wanted to be a doctor and I verge on non-traditional as a result. What I'm advocating certainly wouldn't help me at all - but I think it's a superior system. With so much hubbub about medical waste and out-of-control costs, the entire medical school application process is laughably inefficient.
 
MIAYO said:
The first thing for sure. I hated having to re-enter and re-enter my pre-reqs. I would also add the, Will you be a student this academic year, if not, please explain how you will be spending your time? to the primary. Every school wanted to know this. It's really
Annoying to have to repeat oneself.
Click to expand...

centrigeugle said:
Roll undergraduate and medical education into a combined 6 year program. Students spend two years on basic physical sciences, then must pass an MCATesque test to advance to medical school proper. Those who do not gain competitive scores are released with the possibility to pursue a more conventional degree (and credits that transfer), and the option to reapply if they choose.

Bonus points for associating with local universities to let students co-enroll without applying if they fail to graduate the two year program.

Medical education should be more vocational and less of a crapshoot.
Click to expand...

+1 👍
 
MT Headed said:
When I look back on the interview season, I think of the lobsters in Boston, the blues clubs in Chicago, cheap scotch and poker in a smoky dive in Reno, a ski trip to Bozeman, and the arts & brews festivals in Boulder. I have an upcoming interview in New Orleans, and I booked a room in the middle of the French Quarter for a whole week. There is so much you can learn about a school and surroundings by interviewing them in person, and in the long run the costs are negligible.
Click to expand...

This brings to mind one of the more embarrassing memories of my interview season: checking into a hotel the evening before an interview, heading down to the bar for a drink, ordering said drink, being asked for ID, and finally realizing I wasn't yet legal to drink in the US. (We drink at 19 in Ontario...) Yeah, I stuck to coffee shops after that.
 
centrigeugle said:
Could you elaborate as to why you prefer the current route?

My opinion is that much of the undergraduate education is at best redundant and at worst totally inapplicable to clinical practice as a whole. Combined with the opaque application process and the frustratingly nebulous "soft requirements," four-year undergraduate seems to be little more than a filter to medical school. We shouldn't expect hopeful doctors to pay $X0,000+ just to see if they even can be a doctor. Maybe.

Even then, many of those who do everything right (and really, who knows what that even is?) don't get in until the second or third application cycle. The socioeconomic barriers to medical school are enormous and really shocked me when I started to realize how high they stacked. We need a streamlined process that can test the mettle of our country's would-be physicians, and then give them some modicum of security once they've begun it.

Look, it took me several years into undergraduate to decide I wanted to be a doctor and I verge on non-traditional as a result. What I'm advocating certainly wouldn't help me at all - but I think it's a superior system. With so much hubbub about medical waste and out-of-control costs, the entire medical school application process is laughably inefficient.
Click to expand...

Well said!!!
 
ManBroDude said:
I'm surprised no one has said this yet, but I agree fully. Every other country has this sort of 6-year program, which helps reduce healthcare costs in the end because docs don't have never-ending debt to make up and charge for. I've taken Immunology, Microbiology, Physiology, Genetics, Anatomy, and a whole bunch of other upper-division classes in order to get my Bio degree that I'm just going to have to take again in medical school. Step back and ask yourself, how backwards is that?
Click to expand...

Why would you major in bio if you already knew this? lol
 
If you'd met bs/md kids you wouldn't recommend this.

centrigeugle said:
Could you elaborate as to why you prefer the current route?

My opinion is that much of the undergraduate education is at best redundant and at worst totally inapplicable to clinical practice as a whole. Combined with the opaque application process and the frustratingly nebulous "soft requirements," four-year undergraduate seems to be little more than a filter to medical school. We shouldn't expect hopeful doctors to pay $X0,000+ just to see if they even can be a doctor. Maybe.

Even then, many of those who do everything right (and really, who knows what that even is?) don't get in until the second or third application cycle. The socioeconomic barriers to medical school are enormous and really shocked me when I started to realize how high they stacked. We need a streamlined process that can test the mettle of our country's would-be physicians, and then give them some modicum of security once they've begun it.

Look, it took me several years into undergraduate to decide I wanted to be a doctor and I verge on non-traditional as a result. What I'm advocating certainly wouldn't help me at all - but I think it's a superior system. With so much hubbub about medical waste and out-of-control costs, the entire medical school application process is laughably inefficient.
Click to expand...
 
1- Make financially binding agreements that give preferential treatment to applicants who promise to practice a specified number of years in underserved areas, stay in state, primary care, etc. Talk is Cheap, and folks genuinely committed to what we need most should absolutely get a leg up if they sincerely mean it.

2- Limit the number of schools applicants can apply to. Neuroticism runs deep, and if everyone didn't dilute the pool and apply to 25+ schools, then schools would know who's really interested. Shouldn't change the odds in theory, and should help applicants get an interview at the school they're most interested in.

3- Require the PS to be about anything other than medicine. The sheer act of taking the pre-reqs, the MCAT, and applying shows way more commitment than writing a fluffy piece. Would make interviewing more fun and interesting for everyone involved too. Put applicants more in the driver seat during interviews too.

4- Grades older than 5 years ago shouldn't count towards your application GPA. I've known a few 'second time around schoolers' who work their tails off, and would've made phenomenal docs, but will never get the chance cause they partied too hard 10-15 years ago when they were freshman and sophomores in college.
 
High Roller said:
1- Make financially binding agreements that give preferential treatment to applicants who promise to practice a specified number of years in underserved areas, stay in state, primary care, etc. Talk is Cheap, and folks genuinely committed to what we need most should absolutely get a leg up if they sincerely mean it.

2- Limit the number of schools applicants can apply to. Neuroticism runs deep, and if everyone didn't dilute the pool and apply to 25+ schools, then schools would know who's really interested. Shouldn't change the odds in theory, and should help applicants get an interview at the school they're most interested in.

3- Require the PS to be about anything other than medicine. The sheer act of taking the pre-reqs, the MCAT, and applying shows way more commitment than writing a fluffy piece. Would make interviewing more fun and interesting for everyone involved too. Put applicants more in the driver seat during interviews too.

4- Grades older than 5 years ago shouldn't count towards your application GPA. I've known a few 'second time around schoolers' who work their tails off, and would've made phenomenal docs, but will never get the chance cause they partied too hard 10-15 years ago when they were freshman and sophomores in college.
Click to expand...

The problem with making it financially binding is that I'm sure applicants would be more than happy to get the leg up, and then pay up later.
 
Neurosis said:
But how would we know who the personality-deprived or remarkably conceited ones are among the piles of applications? Serious question.
Click to expand...
Interviews are goof for that, but I think that's all they should be good for. That is, they shouldn't hold much more weight than screening out crazy people. But do the minute differences in interview performance and how they may be viewed by different interviewers really correlate well with who will be more successful in med school and make a good doctor? Do they really give a good indicator for job performance in any job that isn't something like public speaking? I have serious doubts.
 
No 2's and being able to apply in July and August without hurting my chances
 
High Roller said:
1- Make financially binding agreements that give preferential treatment to applicants who promise to practice a specified number of years in underserved areas, stay in state, primary care, etc. Talk is Cheap, and folks genuinely committed to what we need most should absolutely get a leg up if they sincerely mean it.
Click to expand...

I know some states practice this type of system now. My state tried it for a while, and the results were a lot of disgruntled doctors and poor patient care until the doctors' obligations were up and they could get the hell out of here.

Our current system is one where students getting the state taxpayer benefit are required to chip in to a fund (to the tune of $5K / year), and these funds are distributed to any physician who chooses to practice here no matter where they come from. It works a lot better for us.
 
MT Headed said:
I know some states practice this type of system now. My state tried it for a while, and the results were a lot of disgruntled doctors and poor patient care until the doctors' obligations were up and they could get the hell out of here.

Our current system is one where students getting the state taxpayer benefit are required to chip in to a fund (to the tune of $5K / year), and these funds are distributed to any physician who chooses to practice here no matter where they come from. It works a lot better for us.
Click to expand...

Sadly this makes perfect sense. The doctors already received their reward, so what is the benefit of putting in effort? It's another reminder that the path from pre-med to physician and beyond is not full of rainbows and sunshine.
 
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