Illicit drug use by Medical students

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How often do you use controlled substances?

  • I have never used controlled substances.

    Votes: 127 43.8%
  • I have used controlled substances once or a few times.

    Votes: 43 14.8%
  • I have used controlled substances several times.

    Votes: 44 15.2%
  • I used to use controlled substances regularly, but now I use them rarely or never.

    Votes: 57 19.7%
  • I use controlled substances regularly.

    Votes: 19 6.6%

  • Total voters
    290
nope didnt miss it.. I read the whole thing. I was just under the impression your idea of truthful information about marijuana is a little skewed. Who's information do you trust?

I am not suggesting you show 1950s anti drug commercials to your patients by the way.

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liveandlearn said:
nope didnt miss it.. I read the whole thing. I was just under the impression your idea of truthful information about marijuana is a little skewed. Who's information do you trust?

I am not suggesting you show 1950s anti drug commercials to your patients by the way.


the information i trust is from peer-reviewed scientific articles, one of which i just quoted from.

where do you get your information?
 
stoic said:
the information i trust is from peer-reviewed scientific articles, one of which i just quoted from.

where do you get your information?

"Antiestrogenic effects of marijuana smoke condensate and cannabinoid compounds." Lee SY, Oh SM, Lee SK, Chung KH.

"Illicit drug use and educational attainment." Chatterji P.

"The relationship between suicidal thoughts and psychoactive substances." Spremo M, Loga S.

"Neuroimaging in Drug and Substance Abuse Part I: Cocaine, Cannabis, and Ecstasy." Rojas R, Riascos R, Vargas D, Cuellar H, Borne J.

"Insomnia." Tjepkema M.

"Cannabis intoxication and fatal road crashes in France: population based case-control study." Laumon B, Gadegbeku B, Martin JL, Biecheler MB; SAM Group.

"Causal relationship between cannabis use and psychotic symptoms or depression. Should we wait and see? A public health perspective."
de Irala J, Ruiz-Canela M, Martinez-Gonzalez MA.

"Cannabis-induced psychosis and subsequent schizophrenia-spectrum disorders: follow-up study of 535 incident cases." Arendt M, Rosenberg R, Foldager L, Perto G, Munk-Jorgensen P.

just a couple....
 
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liveandlearn said:
"Antiestrogenic effects of marijuana smoke condensate and cannabinoid compounds." Lee SY, Oh SM, Lee SK, Chung KH.

"Illicit drug use and educational attainment." Chatterji P.

"The relationship between suicidal thoughts and psychoactive substances." Spremo M, Loga S.

"Neuroimaging in Drug and Substance Abuse Part I: Cocaine, Cannabis, and Ecstasy." Rojas R, Riascos R, Vargas D, Cuellar H, Borne J.

"Insomnia." Tjepkema M.

"Cannabis intoxication and fatal road crashes in France: population based case-control study." Laumon B, Gadegbeku B, Martin JL, Biecheler MB; SAM Group.

"Causal relationship between cannabis use and psychotic symptoms or depression. Should we wait and see? A public health perspective."
de Irala J, Ruiz-Canela M, Martinez-Gonzalez MA.

"Cannabis-induced psychosis and subsequent schizophrenia-spectrum disorders: follow-up study of 535 incident cases." Arendt M, Rosenberg R, Foldager L, Perto G, Munk-Jorgensen P.

just a couple....

Stoic alluded to all of the conclusions of studies you just mentioned with the exception of the study inversely relating illicit drug use and educational attainment. As Sanford_w/o_son implied in his post, such a study is correlational, and it is difficult to assess the causational influences of drug use on educational attainment (although there are undoubtedly some). The point which I am trying to make is that you and Stoic differ due to your intepretation of the facts.

In my opinion, this difference in interpretation is probably due to differential experience. Perhaps Stoic has biased views due to his history of personal drug use, and perhaps your views are biased by the generalized social stigma against illicit drug use in this nation. It is unrealistic for you two to hope to come to an agreement about public policy. Public policy is a complex field, and delineating an effective public health policy requires the integration of numerous expertises which neither of you have. However, I do think that there should be an agreement with respects to the social stigma surrounding drug use.

When I tell certain people that I smoked marajuana, I feel that I receive a negative reaction which is not warranted. I feel that I am judged as having a moral weakness. This is what I mean by "social stigma." It is inappropriate, not justified by the facts about marajuana, parternalistic, and in a clinical setting, counter to good medical care.
 
Callogician said:
and perhaps your views are biased by the generalized social stigma against illicit drug use in this nation.

Public policy is a complex field, and delineating an effective public health policy requires the integration of numerous expertises which neither of you have.

When I tell certain people that I smoked marajuana, I feel that I receive a negative reaction which is not warranted.

This is what I mean by "social stigma." It is inappropriate, not justified by the facts about marajuana, parternalistic, and in a clinical setting, counter to good medical care.

1st, ive done more drugs than you probably know about. you are the one holding preconceived notions. not myself

2nd, I have experience in the public health field, because i dont want everyone in the world to know who i am because of other things i have posted on this forum I am going to choose not to post references. i guess youll just have to trust me.

3rd, I know what you mean about the negative reactions thing. When i tell a bunch of people that smoke marijuana that it is not good for them they treat me like im an idiot, have never tried drugs, and say that even though I have facts to prove my point of view I am actually just "misinterperting them." As you grow up you'll learn these things go both ways and not be so hypocritical. Everyone gets treated negatively for something or another.

4th, counter to good medical care? Are you serious? You have a LOT to learn. I suspect you'll learn it though. so im not going to worry about writing a long dialogue about what good medical care constitutes. However, I will say that even occasional use of marijuana is not part of an idealy healthy lifestyle. the kind you should be encouraging your patients to live.

good luck in your future studies. if you dont get kicked out for nonsense like this.
 
liveandlearn said:
1st, ive done more drugs than you probably know about. you are the one holding preconceived notions. not myself

2nd, I have experience in the public health field, because i dont want everyone in the world to know who i am because of other things i have posted on this forum I am going to choose not to post references. i guess youll just have to trust me.

3rd, I know what you mean about the negative reactions thing. When i tell a bunch of people that smoke marijuana that it is not good for them they treat me like im an idiot, have never tried drugs, and say that even though I have facts to prove my point of view I am actually just "misinterperting them." As you grow up you'll learn these things go both ways and not be so hypocritical. Everyone gets treated negatively for something or another.

4th, counter to good medical care? Are you serious? You have a LOT to learn. I suspect you'll learn it though. so im not going to worry about writing a long dialogue about what good medical care constitutes. However, I will say that even occasional use of marijuana is not part of an idealy healthy lifestyle. the kind you should be encouraging your patients to live.

good luck in your future studies. if you dont get kicked out for nonsense like this.

I have to agree, you sound pretty danm paternalistic.

I think OP is talking about using marijuana for pain management and a sleep aid. So in that respect, saying pot is only bad for you is counter to good medical care in the clinical setting. I'm surprised with your so-called experience with pot that you have such a silly opinion of it...no offense
 
mudpie said:
I have to agree, you sound pretty danm paternalistic.

I think OP is talking about using marijuana for pain management and a sleep aid. So in that respect, saying pot is only bad for you is counter to good medical care in the clinical setting. I'm surprised with your so-called experience with pot that you have such a silly opinion of it...no offense


non taken. I agree pot should be used as a prescription medicine. However, you dont advocate the recreational use of morphine or vicodin do you?

Also, it is not paternalistic to preach a healthy lifestyle to your patients. I am afraid you guys are too sure of the definition of paternalistic care????
 
mudpie said:
I have one thing to say here: SHUT UP to all the people who are lecturing this guy for smoking pot AND telling him to be careful what he posts on SDN because it will ruin his chances. This is such a predictable, goody-two shoes thing to say from the typical medical student who is too afraid to deviate from the norm and take chances-because it may affect his/her chances in life. I feel like telling these people to first go smoke a joint, and then get laid. And another thing-just because someone smokes pot does not mean they don't have other past times. Do people who drink have other past times? Of course they do, idiots.

Pot never ruined any one's life,what a crock of $hit! I am laughing at how many of these stupid naive posters who have never tried smoking pot think they are so knowledgeable on it! Quit believing the government's lies-they put pot in the same category as heroine-come on now...

Do you want to do yourself a REAL favor? Quit pounding down those beers and shots everytime you get a break from school, and instead, smoke a couple hits off a nice joint every once in awhile. Its healthier, less dangerous to drive, you won't make as much of an ass of yourself in front of all your friends, and there are no calories as well.


Seriously, lighten up. Freakin' medical students. 🙄

"Kaya now...I got to have kaya now...cause the rain is falling....wake up and turn I loose..."

i am glad you contributed something useful... hahaha

by the way, I dont drink. Nor am I anywhere near uptight, far from it in fact. I am simply senseable and not clouded by my own desire to get high. I have lost that desire and enjoy a healthy lifestyle now which does not include smoking anything or drinking anything other than water, tea, and juices.

HAVE YOU GUYS NOTICED I HAVE NOT TOLD YOU TO QUIT?! I HAVENT ASKED YOU TO QUIT!?!?!?!?! WHY ARE YOU WIGGING OUT? THERE IS NOTHING "PATERNALISTIC" ABOUT TELLING SOMEONE WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS UNHEALTHY!!!!!!!!!! IT IS!
 
liveandlearn said:
i am glad you contributed something useful... hahaha

by the way, I dont drink. Nor am I anywhere near uptight, far from it in fact. I am simply senseable and not clouded by my own desire to get high. I have lost that desire and enjoy a healthy lifestyle now which does not include smoking anything or drinking anything other than water, tea, and juices.

HAVE YOU GUYS NOTICED I HAVE NOT TOLD YOU TO QUIT?! I HAVENT ASKED YOU TO QUIT!?!?!?!?! WHY ARE YOU WIGGING OUT? THERE IS NOTHING "PATERNALISTIC" ABOUT TELLING SOMEONE WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS UNHEALTHY!!!!!!!!!! IT IS!

i obviously don't know you, but some of the comments you've been making alone border what i'd expect from an annoying, self-righteous straight-edger. and if you used to do drugs, then you know the type.

there are reasonable limits to everything. if i am to lecture my pts that they should meet the requirements of an ideal healthy lifestyle then this means i must tell them to (off the top of my head): never drink, smoke pot, or use other drugs; never enter rooms in which second-hand smoke it present; always engage in enough regular physical activity so that they can earn a Presidential Physical Fitness Award every year (perhaps that should be part of their check-up); consume only sparingly sugars and fats (or whatever the pyramid says now); immediately get a pet so their stress levels will be reduced; never jaywalk; always wear your seatbelt . . .

so for one thing the recommendations I must give will border on the absurd. and to the pt, "recommendations" from a physician (however soft) are susceptible to being psychologically transformed into "expectations," with all the negative judgment entailed when the pt doesn't follow the "recommendations." there's some research being done now about "teachable moments." the premise (from what i recall, this was in a lecture some time ago and i don't recall the p.i. or institution) is that if you persistently confront most people making unhealthy lifestyle choices with recommendations to the contrary, the typical behavior will be noncompliance or avoiding the physician due to the feeling of persistent negative judgment. The goal of the research is to find out what that "right moment" is to begin talking to an alcoholic about alcohol consumption, or to a diabetic about sugar consumption, so as to garner maximum compliance after having already established a trusting, non-judgmental relationship.

at the other extreme, giving a pt an implicit 👍 when they talk about kicking back some brewskies or toking on a fattie can also be potentially bad as a message of moderation might not get across that way. so when it comes to drinking or smoking cigarettes or pot, if it's clear the pt is doing these things to excess, then i think it's time for a lecture on moderation at the right moment. with drugs that have a strong component of chemical addiction and/or substantial long-term side-effects, then a lecture on abstention will come at the right moment, but hopefully soon.
 
"i obviously don't know you, but some of the comments you've been making alone border what i'd expect from an annoying, self-righteous straight-edger. and if you used to do drugs, then you know the type."

I know the type.. and its definately not me. I do not go around lecturing folks on their lifestyle. This is a forum where impressionable future physicians frequent and may form their lifelong opinions based on what they see as a popular and acceptable concept. It is important that they hear the other (very valid) side of an argument like this.

I also agree that a negative attitude of a physician can be detrimental to patient compliance.. I am not suggesting the WAY someone discourages marijuana use or how often they do so. I am just saying that it SHOULD be discouraged.

As far as my previous posts, i will repeat.. i never asked anyone to stop living life the way they please.. It worries me that people get so defensive when confronted with the health risks of their habits as this itself can be a sign of a problem with a substance.

I appreciate the last post. i think you have the right idea and the idea I was trying to get accross, although poorly. Which is, you should discourage unhealthy activities. how and when you do so is determined by the given situation. However, telling a patient "Ya know, the government and all of the things you've heard in your life were lies. marijuana really isnt that bad for you if used in moderation." Is an unheathy approach. The fact is that it is unhealthy, even in moderation.. although it may not KILL you.. and that 'attempting' to foster trust between you and a patient by saying that everything theyve heard is a lie.. is probably not healthy either.
 
liveandlearn said:
HAVE YOU GUYS NOTICED I HAVE NOT TOLD YOU TO QUIT?! I HAVENT ASKED YOU TO QUIT!?!?!?!?! WHY ARE YOU WIGGING OUT? THERE IS NOTHING "PATERNALISTIC" ABOUT TELLING SOMEONE WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS UNHEALTHY!!!!!!!!!! IT IS!

Dude-chill...I don't smoke pot-it makes me sleepy, which is one of the reasons I know it is a good sleep aid. 🙄
 
liveandlearn said:
non taken. I agree pot should be used as a prescription medicine. However, you dont advocate the recreational use of morphine or vicodin do you?

Also, it is not paternalistic to preach a healthy lifestyle to your patients. I am afraid you guys are too sure of the definition of paternalistic care????

"preach a healthy lifestyle" is a perfect example of the paternalistic model. You haven't stopped to find out any of the patient's circumstances, or how often they smoke. Just a heads up for you. Sometimes we are being paternalistic w/o realizing it, especially if we let our biases dominate our behavior in the clinical setting. Before you make a unilateral decision-its best to get all the facts.
 
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liveandlearn said:
"i obviously don't know you, but some of the comments you've been making alone border what i'd expect from an annoying, self-righteous straight-edger. and if you used to do drugs, then you know the type."

I know the type.. and its definately not me. I do not go around lecturing folks on their lifestyle. This is a forum where impressionable future physicians frequent and may form their lifelong opinions based on what they see as a popular and acceptable concept. It is important that they hear the other (very valid) side of an argument like this.

I also agree that a negative attitude of a physician can be detrimental to patient compliance.. I am not suggesting the WAY someone discourages marijuana use or how often they do so. I am just saying that it SHOULD be discouraged.

As far as my previous posts, i will repeat.. i never asked anyone to stop living life the way they please.. It worries me that people get so defensive when confronted with the health risks of their habits as this itself can be a sign of a problem with a substance.

I appreciate the last post. i think you have the right idea and the idea I was trying to get accross, although poorly. Which is, you should discourage unhealthy activities. how and when you do so is determined by the given situation. However, telling a patient "Ya know, the government and all of the things you've heard in your life were lies. marijuana really isnt that bad for you if used in moderation." Is an unheathy approach. The fact is that it is unhealthy, even in moderation.. although it may not KILL you.. and that 'attempting' to foster trust between you and a patient by saying that everything theyve heard is a lie.. is probably not healthy either.

yeah, i guess for me it's a tough call. i feel that if i were to just tell pts not to engage in a harmful (however little) activity, i would risk them telling me less about other lifestyle concerns as my answer would be predictable to them. and i still think there is a risk of them perceiving negative judgment. now i do believe that there are adverse effects of pot, alcohol, and cigarettes even in moderation (however that would be defined for each drug). however, i'm not so sure that moderate consumption contributes so substantially to morbidity/mortality/decreased functioning that it outweighs the pleasure (and for me with occasional pot, stress-reducing) benefits to the pt.

so maybe the trick is, when the right moment comes, to just lay out in an unbiased, matter-of-fact manner what the apparent risks are for the drug that surfaces, and avoid saying anything about what the pt should or shouldn't do. a "just so you know" type of blurb. this would be unless the drug under even moderate use were very addictive or had long-term side effects, in which case a direct discouragement should be taken.
 
mudpie said:
"preach a healthy lifestyle" is a perfect example of the paternalistic model. You haven't stopped to find out any of the patient's circumstances, or how often they smoke. Just a heads up for you. Sometimes we are being paternalistic w/o realizing it, especially if we let our biases dominate our behavior in the clinical setting. Before you make a unilateral decision-its best to get all the facts.


thanks for the heads up.. but it is the physician's responsibility to "preach" or "counsel" the patient on a healthy lifestyle. nothing paternalistic about teaching your patients what is and what isnt healthy.
 
sanford_w/o_son said:
so maybe the trick is, when the right moment comes, to just lay out in an unbiased, matter-of-fact manner what the apparent risks are for the drug that surfaces,
absolutely. its something that goes by a "if it comes up" basis. You definately shouldnt go around saying to every patient "dont do drugs, drink, or smoke. now what brings you in today?" that would be absurd. However, if posed with the question, "should i be smoking pot." One should CERTAINLY NOT answer... "Well, as long as its in moderation." The correct answer would be "You probably shouldnt, because it is unhealthy for you. Although not so much is really known about its adverse affects enough has been shown to lead me to think its probably not a good choice for the majority of the population."

the "as long as its in moderation" statement is a trip straight downhill.
 
liveandlearn said:
sanford_w/o_son said:
the "as long as its in moderation" statement is a trip straight downhill.

What if you're telling them to drink in moderation or eat unhealthy foods in moderation? Is that not okay?
 
BooMed said:
liveandlearn said:
What if you're telling them to drink in moderation or eat unhealthy foods in moderation? Is that not okay?

Moderate use of alcohol and chocolate has been shown not to be unhealthy. However, even moderate ammounts of smoking, whether it be cigarettes or marijuana has been shown to be unhealthy. In fact, moderate drinking is actually healthy for you. the same has not been found with marijuana. Although i see your point, you are simply trying to compare things that have little to do with eachother.
 
liveandlearn said:
thanks for the heads up.. but it is the physician's responsibility to "preach" or "counsel" the patient on a healthy lifestyle. nothing paternalistic about teaching your patients what is and what isnt healthy.


"preaching" implies a one-way conversation-which is a part of the paternalistic model. Apparently you have not had to take that class yet.
 
This is a fascinating discussion. One can easily draw a similarity between illegal drugs and other "unhealthy" behavior in patients. How does one address the issue, to encourage good behavior and positive health benefits without alienating the patient? What ever happened to that physician in New Hampshire who got in trouble for telling his patient she was too fat?

My point is, isn't it the physician's position to be compassionate toward a patient and any difficulties they have? Maybe understanding why someone chooses to do drugs is important. You may get further in helping patients through looking at commonalities rather than dwelling on shoulds and shouldn'ts.
 
liveandlearn said:
BooMed said:
Moderate use of alcohol and chocolate has been shown not to be unhealthy. However, even moderate ammounts of smoking, whether it be cigarettes or marijuana has been shown to be unhealthy. In fact, moderate drinking is actually healthy for you. the same has not been found with marijuana. Although i see your point, you are simply trying to compare things that have little to do with eachother.

Well... how about eating cheese or red meat? You can't really say that they
are at all good for you, in fact, they're pretty bad for you. But does it matter if you eat those things a few times per week? Not really.

I just don't think that smoking a tiny bit of weed makes one iota of difference in a person's life. If you like doing it, do it, who cares?

Have you all ever been to Amsterdam? It's a pretty good example of how life does not fall apart when you tolerate drugs and treat them as a health concern rather than as a criminal issue. Life goes on, children grow up to be healthy adults, people have jobs, etc. etc. etc.
 
ingamina said:
This is a fascinating discussion. One can easily draw a similarity between illegal drugs and other "unhealthy" behavior in patients. How does one address the issue, to encourage good behavior and positive health benefits without alienating the patient? What ever happened to that physician in New Hampshire who got in trouble for telling his patient she was too fat? QUOTE]

Didn't she say she was fat in some really mean way or something? I guess that would hurt my feelings too, but I still wouldn't sue I would just find another doctor.
 
BooMed said:
Didn't she say she was fat in some really mean way or something? I guess that would hurt my feelings too, but I still wouldn't sue I would just find another doctor.

An important guideline here is the importance of delivery of information. We may not be able to expect someone to stop smoking, or stop overeating overnight. But showing we understand is the first step in intervention. If we tried to be more compassionate about problems, rather than making people feel bad, we'd be able to help more. That's all I'm saying.

Is smoking a joint is a good way to understand..? I don't know if I'd go that far. But discussing it sure is a good start.
 
mudpie said:
"preaching" implies a one-way conversation-which is a part of the paternalistic model. Apparently you have not had to take that class yet.

so i used the wrong word at first. get over it. I have taken plenty of classes. hahaha

let me also add that I have already had more than one person PM me expressing their interest in quitting and living a healthy lifestyle. I think that kinda proves my point that it is better to take a healthful stance on this issue.
 
Callogician said:
Stoic alluded to all of the conclusions of studies you just mentioned with the exception of the study inversely relating illicit drug use and educational attainment. As Sanford_w/o_son implied in his post, such a study is correlational, and it is difficult to assess the causational influences of drug use on educational attainment (although there are undoubtedly some). The point which I am trying to make is that you and Stoic differ due to your intepretation of the facts.

In my opinion, this difference in interpretation is probably due to differential experience. Perhaps Stoic has biased views due to his history of personal drug use, and perhaps your views are biased by the generalized social stigma against illicit drug use in this nation. It is unrealistic for you two to hope to come to an agreement about public policy. Public policy is a complex field, and delineating an effective public health policy requires the integration of numerous expertises which neither of you have. However, I do think that there should be an agreement with respects to the social stigma surrounding drug use.

When I tell certain people that I smoked marajuana, I feel that I receive a negative reaction which is not warranted. I feel that I am judged as having a moral weakness. This is what I mean by "social stigma." It is inappropriate, not justified by the facts about marajuana, parternalistic, and in a clinical setting, counter to good medical care.


You're writing style makes me very drowsy.
 
liveandlearn said:
so i used the wrong word at first. get over it.

Actually, you used the wrong word twice-the second time you had the opportunity to correct yourself but alas, you chose to cling stubbornly to your ignorance.

liveandlearn said:
I have taken plenty of classes. hahaha


Take a few more 🙄
 
mudpie said:
Actually, you used the wrong word twice-the second time you had the opportunity to correct yourself but alas, you chose to cling stubbornly to your ignorance.




Take a few more 🙄

you seem to have a lot of anger in you. I am very sorry that you cant contribute anything other than unfounded insults? Is there anything you would like to ass to this conversation? I think my opinion is worth considering, whether you feel its paternalistic or not.
 
liveandlearn said:
you seem to have a lot of anger in you. I am very sorry that you cant contribute anything other than unfounded insults? Is there anything you would like to ass to this conversation? I think my opinion is worth considering, whether you feel its paternalistic or not.

let me ask you-

is it possible for you to come off 'not' sounding paternalistic?

You're right-I have anger issues-with my daddy. That is why your paternalistic approach bothers me so much. ...dripping sarcasm...

If you go back and read my comments again-you will see that I never said anything to hurt your feelings- you just chose to take my comments that way and were actually the only one to fling insults. Whoever said your comments weren't worth considering? Don't you think that the very fact that I'm responding to them means that I've considered them?

But your juvenile comments are not the only ones worth considering around here. I just post on SDN for fun-FUN, you know- like smoking a joint and not taking everything so seriously?? Oh, thats right-I forgot...you wouldn't understand :laugh:

You are almost as good as a nice glass of wine, a couple tokes on a nice fat spliff, and a foot massage...laughing at you has been really good medicine 😀
 
liveandlearn said:
I agree pot should be used as a prescription medicine. However, you dont advocate the recreational use of morphine or vicodin do you?

This statement proves you never did drugs. Any self-respecting ex-druggie would never group pot with opiates.
 
i think liveandlearn is being fairly respectful. he's been advocating one side of an important issue, and it's contributed to a good exchange. it would be nice if we could keep this civil.
 
i think this is a great topic.

i used to have a problem with drugs. first pot, the acid, then dibble dabble with coke and heroine. the acid gave me flash backs for a couple years and my hands are kinda shaky, which is a problem, because i want to be a brain surgeon. anyhow, i was addicted to heroine for a year until my friends got me help. i had been kicked out of my house and practically living for my next hit. let me tell ya, its all fun and games until you wake up in a stranger's apartment with your clothes off, your bed wet and a foul smelling odor ..a result of s******* yourself. needless to say, the turning point for me was engaging in homosexual activities for my next hit, as a heterosexual, this was a problem. (not that i'm against anyone who swings the other way) let me tell you, drugs are not the answer. i spent 3 years in different rehab hospitals trying to straighten up until i finally did.

and look at me now, i'm in med school!!!!!!!!!!!!! it took me 10 years to get back on track.

now i just smoke a little pot on fridays with Freido. He's my bulldog and he likes to get high too. honestly, its what keeps me sane....but only on fridays....once a week, that's it. i dont touch any of the other stuff and never will. i've learned my lesson.

let me tell ya, its totally been a life changing experience from me. whenever i see a crackhead in the hospital or on the street, i can totally relate. a lot of them have mental illnesses too...mostly from vietnam.
 
cali7925 said:
i think this is a great topic.

i used to have a problem with drugs. first pot, the acid, then dibble dabble with coke and heroine. the acid gave me flash backs for a couple years and my hands are kinda shaky, which is a problem, because i want to be a brain surgeon. anyhow, i was addicted to heroine for a year until my friends got me help. i had been kicked out of my house and practically living for my next hit. let me tell ya, its all fun and games until you wake up in a stranger's apartment with your clothes off, your bed wet and a foul smelling odor ..a result of s******* yourself. needless to say, the turning point for me was engaging in homosexual activities for my next hit, as a heterosexual, this was a problem. (not that i'm against anyone who swings the other way) let me tell you, drugs are not the answer. i spent 3 years in different rehab hospitals trying to straighten up until i finally did.

and look at me now, i'm in med school!!!!!!!!!!!!! it took me 10 years to get back on track.

now i just smoke a little pot on fridays with Freido. He's my bulldog and he likes to get high too. honestly, its what keeps me sane....but only on fridays....once a week, that's it. i dont touch any of the other stuff and never will. i've learned my lesson.

let me tell ya, its totally been a life changing experience from me. whenever i see a crackhead in the hospital or on the street, i can totally relate. a lot of them have mental illnesses too...mostly from vietnam.

👍 This was a great post, thank you for sharing! Your experiences will surely make you a balanced and compassionate physician. Good luck to you in your career!

It's all to easy to dismiss patients as junkies who can't control themselves. Drug addiction is a serious problem that has no socioeconomic boundaries (look at Rush Limbaugh). More importantly, it is simply a dependency that can be overcome. You never know what potential an individual has, no matter what position in life they have.
 
yes, thank you a lot for sharing your experiences cali. Your journey is one a lot of physicians have taken and are too afraid to admit. It is certainly possible to recover from drug addiction and I think it is a continuous journey that we are still on. I'd encourage you share your experience with you patients when you get the chance and its applicable. I have found sharing my experiences has been rewarding for both me and my patients, or even just my friends.
 
sanford_w/o_son said:
i think liveandlearn is being fairly respectful. he's been advocating one side of an important issue, and it's contributed to a good exchange. it would be nice if we could keep this civil.


thank you for this sanford.
 
cali7925 said:
now i just smoke a little pot on fridays with Freido. He's my bulldog and he likes to get high too. honestly, its what keeps me sane....but only on fridays....once a week, that's it. i dont touch any of the other stuff and never will. i've learned my lesson.

:laugh:

Seriously though, great post. I wish you the best of luck in the rest of your career.

My father-in-law works for the medical board of Alabama helping docs and vets with substance abuse problems. (He had addiction problems in med school and later as a cardiologist, which inspired him to go into this line of work.) Most likely all of us will have collegues who struggle with abusing alcohol, cocaine, pain killers, etc. I guess it's pretty amazing how easily humans can get addicted to stuff that is so bad for us.
 
I would like to make a point that I think has been overlooked here. It is that many people who are told that marijuana is just as bad as heroine and cocaine actually believe that. So when they try pot for the first time and realize that it is not addictive - they then think its OK to dabble in other drugs that are in a whole other class. I know of many people who decided since they tried pot and it wasn't scary, that meant they should try heroine, crystal meth and cocaine-since the government afterall does lump them all together in DARE.

I think its best to be honest and direct when talking about drugs. It makes me nervous when I hear people like Live-and-Learn group pot in with heavy narcotics. Maybe pot wouldn't be a gateway drug if the government were more honest.


I'm definitely not saying that we should encourage people to smoke pot but I have found that prevention and intervention are usually more effective when people are told the facts and are dealt with honestly.

I can understand the zero tolerance policy. But the fact of the matter is that alcohol is a worse drug than marijuana in terms of death per year, and in terms of social consequences-(children of alcoholic parents-alcoholism is a genetic disease), domestic abuse related to drinking, barfights, driving accidents-which ruin the lives of many, etc...etc...
 
liveandlearn said:
yes, thank you a lot for sharing your experiences cali. Your journey is one a lot of physicians have taken and are too afraid to admit. It is certainly possible to recover from drug addiction and I think it is a continuous journey that we are still on. I'd encourage you share your experience with you patients when you get the chance and its applicable. I have found sharing my experiences has been rewarding for both me and my patients, or even just my friends.

I think he was just pulling your leg. 🙁
 
yposhelley said:
I think he was just pulling your leg. 🙁

i wasnt pulling legs. i did all this under the cover of my preppy polo shirt and kakhis.

i found Jesus, i was one of the lucky ones.

thankfully i got away unscathed from this entire experience, that is of course outside of my genital herpes and profound psychological trauma.

giving head for heroine is something i hope none of you have to go through.....it isnt very pleasant.
 
cali7925 said:
i wasnt pulling legs. i did all this under the cover of my preppy polo shirt and kakhis.

i found Jesus, i was one of the lucky ones.

thankfully i got away unscathed from this entire experience, that is of course outside of my genital herpes and profound psychological trauma.

giving head for heroine is something i hope none of you have to go through.....it isnt very pleasant.



You've found jesus and now your getting your bulldog high every friday?
 
Actually many people substitute one addiction or behavior for another, as they recover.

I'm actually a fan of harm reduction strategies, in leu of absitenance/tetotaller strategies, when it comes to alcohol & most drug abuse.
So few people can actually quit abusing (a la the AA model); a more honest (and societally beneficial) treatment is to encourage harm reduction/addiction management instead. Those that have the will to completely divest themselves of the habit(s) can follow the AA ideology. Those that relapse can learn how to minimize their risks and reduce their need for use.

It's no cure, but then...nothing is.
 
mudpie said:
You've found jesus and now your getting your bulldog high every friday?


he likes it, i've found it calms him. he also likes to sleep next to me when he's high and it feels good, nice and warm, and he is my alarm clock and wakes me up in the morning by licking my face.

he's my best friend.

i'm not perfect and i've sinned. but i go to confession and Church every Sunday and i'm trying to make things right again. It helps me find peace being active in organizations like Campus Crusade and Sunday school. hopefully someday i can give up pot too.

i am definitely going to share my experiences with patients and docs and hopefully volunteer with elementary school kids and teach them to make good decisions. i wont stop until i ask the kids, "you know what rum is?" and they reply"Rum who, you mean Rumplestilskin."
 
i dont know why, and maybe some of you guys know the mechanism behind this but pot keeps my hemorrhoids from flaring.....hmmm....life is full of funny things. so i guess, i could be using this like medically or something.

any one else have problems with hemorrhoid flares .....the stress really aggravates mine and they bleed all the time.
 
odrade1 said:
Actually many people substitute one addiction or behavior for another, as they recover.

I'm actually a fan of harm reduction strategies, in leu of absitenance/tetotaller strategies, when it comes to alcohol & most drug abuse.
So few people can actually quit abusing (a la the AA model); a more honest (and societally beneficial) treatment is to encourage harm reduction/addiction management instead. Those that have the will to completely divest themselves of the habit(s) can follow the AA ideology. Those that relapse can learn how to minimize their risks and reduce their need for use.

It's no cure, but then...nothing is.

i think with the proper support, from friends and families, quitting becomes a lot easier. not that it is easy at all, but supportive friends who dont try to get you f'ed up all the time and who dont themselves get f'ed up all the time are very important. i think the reduction model is ineffective, speaking from my own personal experience.
 
odrade1 said:
Actually many people substitute one addiction or behavior for another, as they recover.

I'm actually a fan of harm reduction strategies, in leu of absitenance/tetotaller strategies, when it comes to alcohol & most drug abuse.
So few people can actually quit abusing (a la the AA model); a more honest (and societally beneficial) treatment is to encourage harm reduction/addiction management instead. Those that have the will to completely divest themselves of the habit(s) can follow the AA ideology. Those that relapse can learn how to minimize their risks and reduce their need for use.

It's no cure, but then...nothing is.

I'm skeptical, but-

I'm always interested to learn about ways to treat addiction. If you have any evidence or anything else to say about this line of thought, I'd like to hear it. Spefically I would really like to know if there is research that has led you to this opinion.

The closest thing I have heard to what you are saying is of studies done in Amsterdam where heroine addicts were given regimented amounts of heroine in exchange for work programs. The programs had a high success rate with the participants exhibiting long-term baseline functioning. But it had already long been known that heroin addicts are able to go for long periods of functioning. In contrast to the movie 'trainspotting' most heroin addicts I have known have been able to hold jobs for long periods of time before their addictions spun them out of control. Now contrast this to the average crystal meth addict, where the lack of sleep and physiological effects of the drug make it much more difficult to maintain the semblance of normality. Most people would define moderate use as once a week, but if you use crystal meth once a week, that means you lose 2-3 nights of sleep, and think of the disastrous effects that would have on your life. What I'm saying is that this treatment works for heroine addicts (if you think about it the way we treat heroine addiction is with methadone which is essentially the same drug anyways)-but that it wouldn't work for cocaine, crystal meth, has been completely proven to not work for alcoholism.

In every single experience I have had with addicts-and this has been pretty substantial-those who substituted their previous drug use with any drug, be it marijuana or alcohol, or just 'cutting back' on drinking or snorting coke or smoking meth-relapsed back into their original habits. Addicts are addicts because they are unable to use drugs moderately. I've worked with addicts in drug treatment centers and lived in areas with high drug use where I was intimately involved in the lives of those with drug addictions. You are correct that there is no cure for addiction-for an addict to get off drugs and stay off drugs requires a conscious daily commitment to their treatment, and a willingness to not make excuses or denials but to accept the problem for what it is.
 
cali7925 said:
i think with the proper support, from friends and families, quitting becomes a lot easier. not that it is easy at all, but supportive friends who dont try to get you f'ed up all the time and who dont themselves get f'ed up all the time are very important. i think the reduction model is ineffective, speaking from my own personal experience.

I agree with you about the reduction model. This is an issue that I take very seriously. I'm curious to know your opinion on why it is ineffective, or why it wasn't effective for you. I don't mean to pry, so only if you feel like sharing...

I have to say, I've never gotten my dog high, though I've watched as my friend got her two french poodles high, and laughed. I would feel really guilty to get my innocent puppy high-she wouldn't understand what was going on... :laugh:
 
I'd just like to state the obvious here: cali7925 is not being serious; it's all a joke.

And it's HEROIN, not HEROINE! One is an addictive opiate and the other is a female hero! It's ok to be hooked on heroines 😎
 
mudpie said:
I'm skeptical, but-

I'm always interested to learn about ways to treat addiction. If you have any evidence or anything else to say about this line of thought, I'd like to hear it. Spefically I would really like to know if there is research that has led you to this opinion.

The closest thing I have heard to what you are saying is of studies done in Amsterdam where heroine addicts were given regimented amounts of heroine in exchange for work programs. The programs had a high success rate with the participants exhibiting long-term baseline functioning. But it had already long been known that heroine addicts are able to go for long periods of functioning. In contrast to the movie 'trainspotting' most heroine addicts I have known have been able to hold jobs for long periods of time before their addictions spun them out of control. Now contrast this to the average crystal meth addict, where the lack of sleep and physiological effects of the drug make it much more difficult to maintain the semblance of normality. Most people would define moderate use as once a week, but if you use crystal meth once a week, that means you lose 2-3 nights of sleep, and think of the disastrous effects that would have on your life. What I'm saying is that this treatment works for heroine addicts (if you think about it the way we treat heroine addiction is with morphine which is essentially the same drug anyways)-but that it wouldn't work for cocaine, crystal meth, has been completely proven to not work for alcoholism.

In every single experience I have had with addicts-and this has been pretty substantial-those who substituted their previous drug use with any drug, be it marijuana or alcohol, or just 'cutting back' on drinking or snorting coke or smoking meth-relapsed back into their original habits. Addicts are addicts because they are unable to use drugs moderately. I've worked with addicts in drug treatment centers and lived in areas with high drug use where I was intimately involved in the lives of those with drug addictions. You are correct that there is no cure for addiction-for an addict to get off drugs and stay off drugs requires a conscious daily commitment to their treatment, and a willingness to not make excuses or denials but to accept the problem for what it is.
I'm neither a psychologist nor a practicing physician yet, so keep that in mind. However, this is an area I have been philosophically and personally interested in for several years. Also, this topic intersects my area of interest for study as a future academic physician.

For one thing, I harbor doubts concerning the dogma that alcoholism (or drug abuse) is a disease. Personally, I am not knowledgable enough to make a judement--one way or the other--at this time, so no one should construe my comments to represent an argument that such conditions or addictions are not diseases. I merely mean to indicate that I remain unconvinced, and I am receptive to alternate theories attempting to explain the problems that these people suffer from. Similarly, I remain open to treatment methods that fall away from the AA/abstinance model of treatment.

I don't maintain that the abstinance model is an utter failure; obviously, it seems to work for some people. I have had several coworkers with serious chemical abuse/dependancy problems that persevered and remain sober after going through AA. Each of these individuals remain convinced that it was AA & God that allowed them to triumph over their addiction.

Despite the success of AA in a certain percentage of the heavy drinking population, there are many alcoholics who attempt AA (or programs similar) yet relapse. Many others abandon AA altogether and resume heavy drinking/drug use. Just as I know a number of people who persevered through AA, I know many people (friends, lovers, coworkers) who did not.

Some may construe such thinking as an attack on AA as a valid treatment option. Such is not a reasonable position to take, however. Consider depression. There is no one treatment method that works on a majority of depression sufferers. Psychoanalysis works in a fraction of the population, Cognitive therapy works in another fraction, SSRIs work in another, non-SSRIs work in another, and so on. To borrow the disease metaphor for a moment: I advocate that drug & alcohol abuse may be more similar to depression (in this way) than it is to cancer or malaria.

Our concern should be to reduce the suffering and to improve the functioning of those who suffer from addictions. Some of these people will be able to "win" through AA. Others will cycle between abstinance and periods of moderate to heavy use. Others still will fall back into heavy use. But (depending on the drug) some will find that they can manage their risks and reduce their harms, despite the fact that they can't quit drinking/snorting etc.
With these facts in mind, I think it is reasonable to open a dialog with a patient/client, find out the degree of use/abuse, and the costs to health and functioning to the patient. After finding out what the client wants, (and after making your own professional judgements about the history and their health) the proper treatment strategy can be attempted.

One treatment option is to attempt AA. Another is to try harm reduction and risk management. One has a high failure rate, but when the treatment succeeds, there is no longer any abuse. If you change the meaning of "success" for AA to count as successful those people who only rarely relapse, then revert to abstaining again for a period, then their treatment is somewhat more successful, but begins to look more like a harm reduction result.

If you define addicts as someone who cannot control their drinking, then moderation is (by definition) impossible for an addict. However, such an argument begs the question about whether or not someone with a drug addiction can actually learn to moderate their drinking and to reduce the risks to themselves and others when they do drink.

The most reasonable position to take is that
A) Heavy drinkers/users are a diverse population, and addiction a complex phenomenon.
B) AA-type treatments will work on a subset of this population.
C) Other treatments can be empoyed with the rest of the population to
i) reduce the amount of use, and thus some of the physiological harm to the patient/client
ii) build new habits of risk-reduction and risk-avoidance when using their drug or drinking their booze.

Only a fraction of the heavy drinking population has "hit bottom" in such a way that they seek treatment (20%, according to the Institutes of Medicine). The rest of these people are self-learning some of these risk & harm reduction strategies. How much better could their lives and health be if we could offer support to them in their effort to reduce (but not necessarily eliminate) their use, and could have experts counseling them on the most effective methods to reduce harms to themselves, their families, and their community?

Zero tolerance programs work in a percentage of the abusing population. We need to address the fact that the rest of the population may better respond to alternate therapies.

----

Some of my opinions have been influenced by a book I read about 5 years ago: Heavy Drinking: the myth of alcoholism as a disease, by Herbert Fingarette. The book is good, but not perfect, and introduces a series of intelligent arguments that question the legitimacy of the notion of alcoholism as a disease. A subsection of his book deals with assessing the validity of various treatment methods for addiction. I reccomend this book to anyone (on either side of our discussion) for its clarity, brevity, and the honesty of the author.

Institute of Medicine (1990) Broadening the base of treatment for alcohol problems. Washington DC: National Academy Press.
 
congrats, we have another winner. i thought my "jokes" were funny, but i'm sorry if it offended anyone.

alcohol is the biggest drug of abuse. many abusers have underlying mental issues that are "healed" by drugs. i've always wondered what makes a person hate themself so much to drink themselves to an oblivion....i think its a way to attack yourself.

actually, when i drink in med school, i drink to get drunk. i drink to get anhilated and forget about all my troubles for that one night. i know its bad for me and i'll feel like crap the next few days, and i do it anyway. and when the night of binging is done, i return to the life i dont really like....and everytime i get to the point where i cant take it anymore, i need another binge night. the problem is depression. the self medication is alcohol.

i've read about some troubled people...u'd be surprised at the kinds of abusive backgrounds many hard core drug users "escaped" from. teaches you not to judge and to help them with love and compassion....love compassion and support is the way to help an addict.

this is a serious post by the way.
 
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