IM -> Cards vs. GSurg -> Vascular

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FatPigeon

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Somebody please offer some thoughts or experiences before I finally lose my freaking mind. I've been trying for 3 years to decide upon a specialty and I feel I've made little progress. In fact, until recently I knew, at least, that I wanted SOME type of surgery, yet now I've thrown other things into the mix...so in actuality I'm regressing. This is torture. How are we supposed to know so quickly what we'd like to spend our entire careers doing?

I LOVE surgery, from the moment the incision is made until about 4 or 5 hours into the case. Then I start to fall asleep, my face itches from the mask and there's not a damned thing I can do about it, my back hurts, I have a headache and a tremor (maybe diabetics do better in the OR?), and I'm tired of looking at the same old exposed area. Then I leave and think about what was accomplished in there, after I've eaten and taken a s#!t, and I love surgery.

However, all that surrounds it is brutal. Wake up long before dawn's @$scrack, disimpactions, NG tubes, steatorrhea, grouchy senior residents, q3 call... and that awful 2 hours from the time the patient is scheduled for the OR until the actual incision is made, during which time you're waiting for anaesthesia and pacing about, or otherwise arranging the patient and draping them, foleying it up, and just plain-old being bored or annoyed. Are those first fresh hours of each surgery worth all of this awfulness? Quite seriously, they MAY be. Especially considering that your role grows throughout residency, and the entire procedure becomes more and more exciting as you're given more autonomy. But damn, I'm tired, and being gone from 4:30am to 6-8pm every day can deny you a significant other, children, hobbies, and time with your aging parents.

I had been under the impression that both medicine and surgery basically give their lives to the hospital for some years during residency, but it's only recently become so clear to me how much HARDER surgery is. IM residents, so far as I've seen, work 7 to 5 on most days. Why they're always talking as if they're run down and exhausted is totally beyond me. Is it because the day starts at 7am and not 9am, as it would had they been a clinical coordinator or a dermatologist? In any case, while internal medicine seems to have its unpleasant tasks, it strikes me as very allowing of a normal life outside of work, rarely running you into the ground or making you want to kill yourself.

Cardiology (and GI, for that matter) is a smart, smart choice. I've tried lying to myself on several occasions, wanting to believe that there's something wrong with the idea, but really I'm just not buying it. I love vascular stuff, and cardiology gives it to you liberally. In fact, it's practically taking over vascular and CT surgery. Capability of doing invasive procedures, enormous earning potential, job security, awesome tests (reading echos and EKGs reminds me of puzzle solving as a child, and of reading NMRs and IRs during chem class in college....both of which were effing awesome), prestige, nice lifestyle during residency and fellowship (compared to surgery, I mean....and I've found that the idea of how bad a cardiology fellowship is has been significantly overblown on this site), and more. Choosing cardiology can't possibly be a bad choice, assuming you get into a great IM program and are sure you'll snag the fellowship. The one problem: I'd never get to be a surgeon, and that would suck.

Lastly, I'm something of a masochist. I think many medical students are. The idea of toughing through something brutal and emerging on the other end a "surgeon" presents the reward of an unparalleled sense of achievement. Part of me wants to be beaten down and to emerge capable of cutting into someone and instantly curing them.

Someone tell me I've gone horribly wrong in one or more of my assumptions, in such a way that instantly unblinds me and leaves me permanently and confidently set upon a certain course, thereby saving me from insanity and allowing me to pick my freaking 4th year electives already.

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I realize I haven't even started med school yet, but so far I feel the same way. Everything down to the enjoyment of NMR/IR describes me to a T. Curious to see what y'all think...
 
Either you are a surgeon or you are not. These two fields are not even comparable. Do electives in vascular surgery and cardiology as a fourth year (early) and figure out what you want to do. You can't sit and figure this out without personal experience. Trying to decide this based on perceived difficulty of residency is meaningless. Anyone can get up early if what they are getting up for is of interest. If you are not interested in medicine or surgery, getting up an noon is going to be hard.

Also, if you are even contemplating cardiology, you need to match into a very strong university residency program in Internal Medicine and do some research as a resident. Cardiology is not an easy subspecialty to enter. Good vascular surgery programs are not easy to get into either and you should match into a strong program where you get plenty of experience and a wide variety of experiences plus good ABSITE scores.


If your medical school grades are not top half, both of these subspecialties are going to prove elusive.
 
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Also something to keep in mind is there are now 5-year integrated vascular surgery programs. There are only like a dozen so it's pretty competitive, but besides the intern year you avoid most of that gensurg GI-type stuff.
 
Somebody please offer some thoughts or experiences before I finally lose my freaking mind. I've been trying for 3 years to decide upon a specialty and I feel I've made little progress. In fact, until recently I knew, at least, that I wanted SOME type of surgery, yet now I've thrown other things into the mix...so in actuality I'm regressing. This is torture. How are we supposed to know so quickly what we'd like to spend our entire careers doing?

I LOVE surgery, from the moment the incision is made until about 4 or 5 hours into the case. Then I start to fall asleep, my face itches from the mask and there's not a damned thing I can do about it, my back hurts, I have a headache and a tremor (maybe diabetics do better in the OR?), and I'm tired of looking at the same old exposed area. Then I leave and think about what was accomplished in there, after I've eaten and taken a s#!t, and I love surgery.

However, all that surrounds it is brutal. Wake up long before dawn's @$scrack, disimpactions, NG tubes, steatorrhea, grouchy senior residents, q3 call... and that awful 2 hours from the time the patient is scheduled for the OR until the actual incision is made, during which time you're waiting for anaesthesia and pacing about, or otherwise arranging the patient and draping them, foleying it up, and just plain-old being bored or annoyed. Are those first fresh hours of each surgery worth all of this awfulness? Quite seriously, they MAY be. Especially considering that your role grows throughout residency, and the entire procedure becomes more and more exciting as you're given more autonomy. But damn, I'm tired, and being gone from 4:30am to 6-8pm every day can deny you a significant other, children, hobbies, and time with your aging parents.

I had been under the impression that both medicine and surgery basically give their lives to the hospital for some years during residency, but it's only recently become so clear to me how much HARDER surgery is. IM residents, so far as I've seen, work 7 to 5 on most days. Why they're always talking as if they're run down and exhausted is totally beyond me. Is it because the day starts at 7am and not 9am, as it would had they been a clinical coordinator or a dermatologist? In any case, while internal medicine seems to have its unpleasant tasks, it strikes me as very allowing of a normal life outside of work, rarely running you into the ground or making you want to kill yourself.

Cardiology (and GI, for that matter) is a smart, smart choice. I've tried lying to myself on several occasions, wanting to believe that there's something wrong with the idea, but really I'm just not buying it. I love vascular stuff, and cardiology gives it to you liberally. In fact, it's practically taking over vascular and CT surgery. Capability of doing invasive procedures, enormous earning potential, job security, awesome tests (reading echos and EKGs reminds me of puzzle solving as a child, and of reading NMRs and IRs during chem class in college....both of which were effing awesome), prestige, nice lifestyle during residency and fellowship (compared to surgery, I mean....and I've found that the idea of how bad a cardiology fellowship is has been significantly overblown on this site), and more. Choosing cardiology can't possibly be a bad choice, assuming you get into a great IM program and are sure you'll snag the fellowship. The one problem: I'd never get to be a surgeon, and that would suck.

Lastly, I'm something of a masochist. I think many medical students are. The idea of toughing through something brutal and emerging on the other end a "surgeon" presents the reward of an unparalleled sense of achievement. Part of me wants to be beaten down and to emerge capable of cutting into someone and instantly curing them.

Someone tell me I've gone horribly wrong in one or more of my assumptions, in such a way that instantly unblinds me and leaves me permanently and confidently set upon a certain course, thereby saving me from insanity and allowing me to pick my freaking 4th year electives already.

I'm just finishing up M2 so I don't have the M3 ward experience to back it up, but you just summarized the internal debate I've had for the last year. My school allows you to do a specialty clinic rotation during IM-were you able to do a cardio rotation during M3? If so, did you walk away at the end of the day at least as satisfied as you were following a day of surgery? That's the question I'll be asking myself next year, because I think that Cardio is the one specialty that I might choose over surgery. Good luck with your choice.
 
Here's how I'd figure it out. Imagine you get a crystal ball that shows you that you won't be able to complete a fellowship and you have to just choose between General Surgery and Internal Medicine. Which do you like more?

I say this because of my friends who want to do Ortho or Plastics or Peds Surgery or Vascular, they'd all pick being a General Surgeon OVERWHELMINGLY over being a general medicine guy, even if they don't "like" general surgery. Same for my friends who want to do Cards, GI, Critical Care, etc...they'd pick being a general medicine guy over being a surgeon any day of the week, even if they don't want to do Internal medicine without a fellowship.

You don't see people who say "Well, I want to be a Cardiologist...but if I didn't get my fellowship I'd wish I'd have been a general surgeon."
 
Here's how I'd figure it out. Imagine you get a crystal ball that shows you that you won't be able to complete a fellowship and you have to just choose between General Surgery and Internal Medicine. Which do you like more?

I don't think this is very useful. Just because people would choose GS over the horror of IM doesn't reflect that much on cardiology, which is pretty far removed from IM (especially on the interventional side). And there are plenty of people in surgical specialties who hate GS (i.e. everyone in my class doing ortho). You can still be a surgeon while finding bowel uninteresting.

I can sympathize with your dilemma, OP. There are some people who just "know" they need to be in the OR for the rest of their lives. Then there are some people (the rest of us) who like it but are trying to figure out whether the rewards are worth the sacrifices. Just try to get as much information as you can and hopefully you'll find a decision you feel comfortable with.
 
Either you are a surgeon or you are not. These two fields are not even comparable. Do electives in vascular surgery and cardiology as a fourth year (early) and figure out what you want to do. You can't sit and figure this out without personal experience. Trying to decide this based on perceived difficulty of residency is meaningless. Anyone can get up early if what they are getting up for is of interest. If you are not interested in medicine or surgery, getting up an noon is going to be hard.

Also, if you are even contemplating cardiology, you need to match into a very strong university residency program in Internal Medicine and do some research as a resident. Cardiology is not an easy subspecialty to enter. Good vascular surgery programs are not easy to get into either and you should match into a strong program where you get plenty of experience and a wide variety of experiences plus good ABSITE scores.


If your medical school grades are not top half, both of these subspecialties are going to prove elusive.

Thanks for the response. I don't have your level of experience in these matters, but I'd venture to disagree with the thought that perceived level of difficulty is irrelevant, and that getting up at 4am is something surgery residents look forward to simply because they like surgery. I've met dozens of them, and have yet to find one who likes it. They seem to view it as the means to an end: namely, getting to the hospital at 7:00am as an attending and walking into their first case once the patient is prepped...to do what they enjoy. The intensity of the actual program isn't a top priority for me, but I'd have to draw a line at "ridiculous." The lives of a few junior surgical residents, while on my clerkship, did seem to cross that line.

Unfortunately, so far as having to work through this decision by exposing myself to it, I've completed both clerkships and am still confused. Taking a mix of electives 4th year would likely only show me more of the same and waste good opportunity to really concentrate on making myself competitive for the field I'd chosen.

Hmm...I knew that cardiology was a tough fellowship to land, but I hadn't realized that vascular was as well. Also, it scares me that you thought to specifically point out the importance of grades. I'm at a mid-upper tier allopathic school with step one ~245 and a basic science publication, but my grades themselves have been middle-of-the-pack (HP or H in only the important ones). Basically I'm viewing this decision from the standpoint of "what would you go into if you could go into anything you wanted?" Hopefully I've been right about that.

Didn't mean to tear apart your post like it were a journal at journal club... just thinking out loud, I guess. Definitely appreciate your advice. And definitely frustrated. 🙁
 
I can completely sympathize with your comments as they describe me equally well. Though I know that I can rule-out IM. For me, the debate is between EM and Ortho. We have to schedule our fourth-year aways this week so I got to make a decision soon.
 
I don't think this is very useful. Just because people would choose GS over the horror of IM doesn't reflect that much on cardiology, which is pretty far removed from IM (especially on the interventional side). And there are plenty of people in surgical specialties who hate GS (i.e. everyone in my class doing ortho). You can still be a surgeon while finding bowel uninteresting.

But fundamentally, all those Ortho, ENT, Urology are surgeons. And I guaran-damn-tee they'd complete a general surg residency before an internal medicine one if that was their only choice.

And even if Cardiology is "far removed" from Internal Medicine (which I disagree with), cards guy's are fundamentally medicine guys at heart. They care more about diabetes and COPD than appys and choles.

This is fundamentally a question of "Do you see yourself as more of a medicine guy or a surgery guy?" Even if you're a vascular surgeon who does minimal interventions and surgeries and focuses on the outpatient management of PVD, your surgery background is going to color your decisions. Similar for cards, if you're an interventionalist as much as you can be, you're still going to be fundamentally coming from a medicine background.
 
This is fundamentally a question of "Do you see yourself as more of a medicine guy or a surgery guy?" Even if you're a vascular surgeon who does minimal interventions and surgeries and focuses on the outpatient management of PVD, your surgery background is going to color your decisions. Similar for cards, if you're an interventionalist as much as you can be, you're still going to be fundamentally coming from a medicine background.

But there may be surgery guys who would be happier working 70 hours a week in procedural medicine than 90 in surgery. It's not a 1:1 comparison, it's "does medicine+seeing family<surgery"? Certainly for many (most?) would-be surgeons this is not an issue because they hate medicine and/or are so sure about surgery that they'd do it if it was 140 hours a week. But there are some people on the border and "figuring out whether you're a medicine or surgery guy" isn't going to help - the OP has already done IM AND surgery clerkships.
 
I am a pgy 2 surgery resident. Getting up early is about the least difficult thing about surgery residency. I get to the hospital anywhere from 5 am to 6:30 am depending on what rotation I am doing and what my census is. By about the middle of your intern year you have completely adapted to the schedule. General surgery residency is hard but I have a wife and a 2 year old child and we still get out and do things as a family. I really don't think doing a surgery residency is like going to prison for 5-6 years. I work hard daily but my days fly by. When I am busy operating time passes very quickly, and when you have a little down time you appreciate it. As one of my mentors says "we live life, but our life is a little different than everyone else's". This is a pretty good quote, in surgery you get to learn to do things and take care of problems that 99% of the population (including many of your medical colleges) would just freak out and not be able to handle or cope with. You get to learn to keep a cool head and perform in these situations, it is pretty damn cool at times, but it does come with a price attached just like all other decisions. Your career is damn long and you have to decide what is important, medicine or surgery we all have to work hard, I think it is better to go into the field that interests you and then try to carve out the lifestyle you want.

Your intern year is an intern year regardless if your a medicine intern or surgery intern, scut is your middle name. It is part of the game and it does teach you a lot about working within the system, how to get sh_t done, how to care for patients.

There is a world of difference between medicine and surgery or between vascular and interventional cardiology. The interventional cards guys work pretty hard as well. You have to decide if you are the guy that likes to round and think about problems, go to morning report, lunch report, outpatient clinic blah blah blah, call consults to the surgeons to fix a problem, or you are going to be someone who spends the majority of their time seeing a patient, thinking about the problem relatively briefly and then making a decision and do something about it. (not a slam on medicine, they have a very important job and are great colleges) So you know vascular is a very attainable fellowship from general surgery, very few vascular programs are integrated (apply directly from med school) Good luck on the decision.👍

Skialta
 
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to the OP, i can totally relate with you!! as an MS3 about to pick fourth year electives in a couple of weeks, i've been having many sleepless nights debating whether or not to pursue IM or GS. i had a great time in GS, loved the action, adrenaline rush, gadgets, and 5-line SOAP notes haha. but like you, i also did not like the endless operations, sterile insanity, and the confinement to breast/bowel/boils. for a while, i actually fooled myself into thinking that i was more of a surg type. in actuality, though, i'm def better suited for IM, given it's patient contact, breadth and depth of medical problems, continuity of care, personalities, and lifestyle. i like hands-on activities, so i think the procedure-based IM subspecialties (cards, GI, pulm/crit care) is a good compromise. hoping to land a solid IM residency next year and excel, which will hopefully keep the doors open for a cardiology fellowship down the road...
 
...IM residents, so far as I've seen, work 7 to 5 on most days. ....

I think this is where your analysis falls apart. While some low volume programs may have cushy schedules like this, at many places the "official" sign ins/sign outs may be 7 to 5, but you have to do prerounding on your patients before 7, and finish up details you aren't going to stick the overnight team with after 5. So it probably ends up more like 6-6 at best that you are in the hospital. And most places have q4 call so every 4th night you are either there overnight (up to 30 hours in a row) if no night float, or there until 10-11ish if there is. You can easily break the 80 hour ceiling in medicine if it's not strictly enforced. The real difference in hours between medicine and surgery is that medicine residencies tend to have several months of lighter electives in the early years, whereas surgery often doesn't.
 
Medicine has similar hours but it's a totally different world. Medicine spends 2-3 hours rounding. They fine tune lantus and metformin while surgeons put patients on insulin sliding scales. After rounds they spend a long time doing some floor work, writing notes, and waiting for labs. Each hour at noon is spent at noon conference. Then there's usually an hour after noon conference to unwind in the resident lounge. Check some more labs, do some more floorwork, and sign out to night team.

Surgery typically rounds for an hour, writes all the notes in that time frame, and often just runs the list briefly with the attending in person or over the phone. The day is spent either doing surgery or scut. There is no noon conference. Time in the resident lounge is maybe 5-10 minutes. There is a lot of turn over with post op patients.

There are few, if any, electives in General Surgery. Conversely there are many electives in Medicine, such as research electives. Medicine residency is 3 years. Medicine spends a few months in the ICU. Surgery has ICU patients almost during their entire residency.

To me, even if the hours are similar, there is no way medicine can ever be as rigorous as surgery in terms of brute work. A lot of time in medicine is spent learning. A lot of time in surgery is spent doing; the learning is done mostly on an individual basis during downtime or at home; not during dedicated hours during the day. I think surgeons have to pack in a lot more work during the day than internists. The internists on the other hand have more responsibility to not just stabilize patients but fine tune them and spend a bunch of time reading and figuring out problems. Surgeons don't have a lot of time to read UpToDate during the day to learn about patient's problems, but luckily a lot of surgical problems are common and not off the wall.
 
I think this is where your analysis falls apart. While some low volume programs may have cushy schedules like this, at many places the "official" sign ins/sign outs may be 7 to 5, but you have to do prerounding on your patients before 7, and finish up details you aren't going to stick the overnight team with after 5. So it probably ends up more like 6-6 at best that you are in the hospital. And most places have q4 call so every 4th night you are either there overnight (up to 30 hours in a row) if no night float, or there until 10-11ish if there is. You can easily break the 80 hour ceiling in medicine if it's not strictly enforced. The real difference in hours between medicine and surgery is that medicine residencies tend to have several months of lighter electives in the early years, whereas surgery often doesn't.

I think it varies - on about half of our services rounds wouldn't start until 8, so the residents could easily get in to preround at 7. On days when the teams aren't admitting patients, I've seen efficient residents finish all their work and leave by 4.

Of course on the busier services or on admission days, getting out at 5 would be a dream.
 
If you're turned off by surgery because the hours are bad, why would you go into Cardiology? That has one of the worst lifestyle's of any specialty.
 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Interventional radiology as another possibility for someone who wants to be "procedure heavy" but doesn't necessarily want to do surg. I've heard (feel free to dispute me) that it's not that tough to get into once you're in rads, since gen. radiologists do so well for themselves anyway.

I really think IR is the wave of the future for interventionalists, much to the chagrin of surgeons everywhere. (Yes, I know people will always need their gallbladders out, etc).

If I were planning strategically for a well-positioned career and salary, rads is what I would do. Unfortunately I love IM...oh well.
 
If you're turned off by surgery because the hours are bad, why would you go into Cardiology? That has one of the worst lifestyle's of any specialty.

really? ive never heard that before. What about cardiology makes the lifefstyle so horrible?
 
i agree with the sentiment that you are probably a medicine guy who does procedures or a surgeon at heart

interventional cardio, interventional neuro are all ways to do procedures but maintain a background in medicine, neurology or radiology respectively

some ppl were born to be surgeons however and if thats you then just go for it, good luck
 
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