I'm Devastated, need your advice

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I am an IMG 2013 Grad, PGY1 in EM (my home country)
Step1: 219
Step2CK: 244
CS: PASS
all first attempt no red flags in MSPE

no psych research, 1 LOR from psychiatrist from my home country, other 2 are from anesthesiologists in US and one from my current PD. all of them are very strong

Although I have always loved psychiatry I thought I wouldn't choose it, until the very last months when I had to apply and I just couldn't imagine myself in any other field for the rest of my life, because of the misery it promised me.

So I applied to psychiatry in hopes that my PS could explain my psy unfriendly application, but it seems I was wrong.

probably every single program believes that I applied there as a backup.

I have 0 interviews and about 15 rejections so far.

I applied widely about 70 programs.

I'm desperate thinking that chances I go unmatched are huge now. Is it all over for me this year or there's still a chance for any invitations to come? does emailing PDs will do any good?

Any advice is appreciated.
 
ICUinWonderland said:
Although I have always loved psychiatry I thought I wouldn't choose it, until the very last months when I had to apply and I just couldn't imagine myself in any other field for the rest of my life, because of the misery it promised me.
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If you personal statement sounds like this post, then I doubt you will get any invites.
 
I'd call some of the programs to see what the issues may have been, correct it and apply again next year if needed.
 
it must be very demoralizing to be in this position. Really your issue is that you do not have any US clinical experience or experience of psychiatry in your own country. Letters from anesthesiologists are pretty useless - they are no more equipped to comment on your Suitability for psychiatry than I am to comment on your suitability for anesthesiology. You need to get appropriate experience to show an interest in psychiatry and get appropriate letters of recommendation in the first instance.
 
I agree with splik, with the caveat that a *few* targeted emails to PDs elucidating that 1) you are well aware that your app right now looks like "psych is my backup", and 2) explaining why you are going for psych right now anyway, and 3) emphasizing your strong interest in psych *might* possibly land you an interview if you're very very lucky. But the odds are not favorable right now.

And please think very carefully about the tone of those emails, as harsh as JDUB was in his response, if your email to a PD comes across as loaded with self-pity or desperation it will do you more harm than good.
 
Thank you doctors

I will definitely try and reach out for some of the programs.

when do you usually stop sending invitations to IMGs?
 
ICUinWonderland said:
I am an IMG 2013 Grad, PGY1 in EM (my home country)
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Is there a gap year in there between graduating med school and starting residency? Also, as an EM resident, how did you discover your calling to be a psychiatrist over an anesthesiologist?
 
hamstergang said:
Is there a gap year in there between graduating med school and starting residency? Also, as an EM resident, how did you discover your calling to be a psychiatrist over an anesthesiologist?
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I worked as a junior doctor in ICU for about 1 year before applying to EM residency (maybe 2-3 month gap in total after graduation)

Although I have frequently thought about it, I never truly understood when I missed my opportunity to choose psychiatry as a career. Reflecting on my past, I believe I was not fully able to appreciate the big picture of what interested me the most and was bogged down in details on why to chose a particular field. I constantly strived to find a concrete rationale, a detailed reason behind my decision, and only after I stopped grasping for this mirage did I realise that a question ‘Why do I want to be a psychiatrist?’ had not been posed correctly to start with. One cannot reach out for some definite, static, unchanging truth to depend on. Life is ambiguous, constantly changing experience, - a story full of stories where no all encompassing meaning can be found. It’s all what it is, an imagery to meditate upon, an echo of a path one took. So it’s not simply “why do I want to be psychiatry” but rather all the experiences I have had, people I have met, patients I have worked with, interests I developed, meanings I have found and ‘truths’ I have abandoned is that led me to this choice.
 
Sometimes it might be helpful to maybe take a gap year and improve English particularly if it's second language, it can help your communication with the team and patients in the long run
 
ICUinWonderland said:
I worked as a junior doctor in ICU for about 1 year before applying to EM residency (maybe 2-3 month gap in total after graduation)

Although I have frequently thought about it, I never truly understood when I missed my opportunity to choose psychiatry as a career. Reflecting on my past, I believe I was not fully able to appreciate the big picture of what interested me the most and was bogged down in details on why to chose a particular field. I constantly strived to find a concrete rationale, a detailed reason behind my decision, and only after I stopped grasping for this mirage did I realise that a question ‘Why do I want to be a psychiatrist?’ had not been posed correctly to start with. One cannot reach out for some definite, static, unchanging truth to depend on. Life is ambiguous, constantly changing experience, - a story full of stories where no all encompassing meaning can be found. It’s all what it is, an imagery to meditate upon, an echo of a path one took. So it’s not simply “why do I want to be psychiatry” but rather all the experiences I have had, people I have met, patients I have worked with, interests I developed, meanings I have found and ‘truths’ I have abandoned is that led me to this choice.
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Sounds like someone took a paragraph from their PS 😵
 
HipsterLorax said:
Sounds like someone took a paragraph from their PS 😵
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If this is indeed the case, that's too bad. The text is too vague and there is too much hand waving for a PS, it should be more specific. Even if one has multiple experiences leading to one's decision to apply to psychiatry, one should give some examples, otherwise it looks like there is really no good reason.
(I'm also tempted to say that piece of text is pretentious and poorly written, but that will be seen as a personal attack...)

@ICUinWonderland I understand that you're very frustrated now, but try to understand that people here are trying to help you. What sounds like a personal attack may actually be good advice. For one thing, it *is* important how you come off in your writing and, honestly, in this thread you appear desperate, dramatic and not really knowing what you're doing and why. It's not the kind of impression you want to make on anyone, least of all PDs etc. Also, a good attitude goes a long way.
 
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A little perspective: I think the average first year resident in the US is 26 years old. Many of us took several years to hone our resumes and do psych related stuff at some point... Lots of people won't start till their 30s (at least half of my class going into psych is > 30 and most have strong experiences beyond 4 years of med school). Clearly you've been at the game for a while, but remember that medicine here is getting nuts and people are doing more and more to separate themselves from others. If psych in America is what you really want, then your focus might want to shift beyond this application cycle to how you can maximize your chances in a year or two AND ensure that this career specifically is what you want.

Also, out of curiosity: would you choose psychiatry in your home country or EM/IM in the USA?
 
Amygdarya said:
If this is indeed the case, that's too bad. The text is too vague and there is too much hand waving for a PS, it should be more specific. Even if one has multiple experiences leading to one's decision to aply to psychiatry, one should give some examples, otherwise it looks like there is really no good reason. .
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Unfortunately it is all too typical of about 500 of the personal statements I've looked at the past 2 months.

(Note I said "looked at". There is NO way to actually read these things...)
 
Mad Jack said:
I mean, he did match psych, so he's got some experience with what works...
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Currently, in process. SO, technically I know nothing......

In a competitive market, you have to dot all the i's and cross all the t's. And moreover, if you are starting at a disadvantage, make sure the information you provide is on point.
 
Your PS is like a cover letter attached to a resume or job application. It is your opportunity to sell yourself, to tie together the record in your ERAS with a personal narrative that makes a reader say out loud "I want to meet this applicant," or better yet, "we would be lucky to have this chap in our program."

If that paragraph further up the thread was in your PS, I would have stopped reading after about 10 seconds and put your app in the round file. What I "read" in it, or what came through to me: you are either a mess, or you will soon be a mess, and who needs that kind of trouble for the next 4 years? Too many good fish in the sea to waste the precious resource of an interview slot on you.

Sorry, calling it as I see it...
 
I'm a fellow FMG who matched into Psych. You have been given some sound advice so far, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

This far into the match cycle, chances to receive interviews are minimal if you haven't received any so far, in my opinion. I don't think that emailing PDs has much value for an average IMG/FMG applicant, because there are so many of us applying. If your app would have made the cut, you would have received an interview.

If I were you, I would start working on a game plan for next year. I would do at least 2-3 months of some type of observership in the US because you really need some US psych LORs. The lack of "psych commitment" in your CV is probably the biggest red flag for PDs. I don't know if what you posted is your actual PS, but if it is, it would not convince a stranger that psych is your calling - which is what you need your PS to do, especially in your situation.

I know things aren't easy for us IMGs/FMGs, and I'm sorry you are in this position now. Your scores are decent, so if you manage to show your passion and dedication to the field in your CV, the next match cycle could be a whole different story. Chin up!
 
ICUinWonderland said:
Although I have frequently thought about it, I never truly understood when I missed my opportunity to choose psychiatry as a career. Reflecting on my past, I believe I was not fully able to appreciate the big picture of what interested me the most and was bogged down in details on why to chose a particular field. I constantly strived to find a concrete rationale, a detailed reason behind my decision, and only after I stopped grasping for this mirage did I realise that a question ‘Why do I want to be a psychiatrist?’ had not been posed correctly to start with. One cannot reach out for some definite, static, unchanging truth to depend on. Life is ambiguous, constantly changing experience, - a story full of stories where no all encompassing meaning can be found. It’s all what it is, an imagery to meditate upon, an echo of a path one took. So it’s not simply “why do I want to be psychiatry” but rather all the experiences I have had, people I have met, patients I have worked with, interests I developed, meanings I have found and ‘truths’ I have abandoned is that led me to this choice.
Click to expand...
what were you smoking when you wrote that? this would be an example of what psychiatrists call poverty of thought content
 
splik said:
what were you smoking when you wrote that? this would be an example of what psychiatrists call poverty of thought content
Click to expand...
I don't know I liked it...............

literary_gold_button.gif
 
splik said:
what were you smoking when you wrote that? this would be an example of what psychiatrists call poverty of thought content
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There's a difference between overwrought and meaningless.

There is meaning in what he/she wrote.
 
splik said:
this is an example of what psychiatrists call projection 😉
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Hahahaha indeed. I guess now that they only have one SDN profile in which to contain themselves this is to be expected...
 
splik said:
this is an example of what psychiatrists call projection 😉
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Dosage, timing, and tact.

Try to give an example to the OP.

Edit: I forgot the winky face to show that I am in control of my emotions and sending this message in a joshing manner. 😉
 
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SmallBird said:
Hahahaha indeed. I guess now that they only have one SDN profile in which to contain themselves this is to be expected...
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It's true what they say, that moderation of thought, attempted diffusion of an insult, and concern for another's wellbeing are some of the most primitive defense mechanisms. Also among them, sarcasm.
 
splik said:
what were you smoking when you wrote that? this would be an example of what psychiatrists call poverty of thought content
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That was nice compared to what I posted and decided to retract mainly because I try to save my harsher feedback for aspiring psychologists. I will say that I would be reluctant to work with a psychiatrist whose communication was that unclear. After all, most of our communication is through the exhange of clinical documentation and it helps when it actually make sense.
 
smalltownpsych said:
That was nice compared to what I posted and decided to retract mainly because I try to save my harsher feedback for aspiring psychologists. I will say that I would be reluctant to work with a psychiatrist whose communication was that unclear. After all, most of our communication is through the exhange of clinical documentation and it helps when it actually make sense.
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well i dont think it's fair to make inferences about someone's written or spoken communication from this forum as the actual english is mostly fine. i suspect she is fine and just needs to lay off the hallucinogens. there was something quite poetic in the writing despite not saying anything of consequence. she has no compunction to share why she wants to be a psychiatrist with the forum but hopefully is able to explain this in a personal statement or interview

and i don't think it is fair to blame the communication on being an IMG as most of personal statements i read that are bordering on formal thought disorder come from US allopathic medical students.
 
splik said:
well i dont think it's fair to make inferences about someone's written or spoken communication from this forum as the actual english is mostly fine. i suspect she is fine and just needs to lay off the hallucinogens. there was something quite poetic in the writing despite not saying anything of consequence. she has no compunction to share why she wants to be a psychiatrist with the forum but hopefully is able to explain this in a personal statement or interview

and i don't think it is fair to blame the communication on being an IMG as most of personal statements i read that are bordering on formal thought disorder come from US allopathic medical students.
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Do med students really have that much of a problem with writing coherent personalstatements? I guess I could see how it might be different from psychology though. I don't think psychologists can get very far without good writing ability. It's a big part of what we do. We actually agonize over that crap (personal statements and such) a bit too much actually even though we know that it isn't really predictive of much. Probably because we don't have all the standardized tests you all have. I think we actually had to write 5 different essays for our internship applications. I wonder if anyone actually ever read that (well-written) garbage.
 
smalltownpsych said:
Do med students really have that much of a problem with writing coherent personalstatements?
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You can get through a BSc degree in biology followed by an MD program without having much if any emphasis on how to string a decent sentence together. I think communication deficits are a big reason medical schools have been pulling for more applicants with degrees in the arts and social sciences.

That said, I think the cringe-y attempts at depth are in a small minority. The vast majority I read are just pretty bland.
 
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thank you all for you're feedback

I guess I should go on and say something about my PS to start with. In my first paragraph I went on and talked about my experience in ED where we occasionally admitted psychiatric patients and how rewarding I found working with them and that I enjoyed my psychiatry rotation and found my self spending a lot of time around psy consult service and also read psychiatric literature whenever I had free time, than was the paragraph you all found so enjoyable 🙂 after wchich I wrote that in future I aspire for a career in clinical psychiatry and plus for about 1/3 of paragraph I was a bit "poetic" again talking about the fact that working with psychiatry patients made me realise the importance of understanding psychiatric conditions as a complex problem having it's roots in cultural, political and social factors and we must be able to avoid biomedical reductionism whenever possible, overall for that paragraph I let myself be inspired by this in my opinion very good article
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/201/6/430.full?sid=d0cde91b-f9aa-4092-ad0a-c1c300545dbf

and finally in the last paragraph I talked generally how hard working I am and that my past clinical experience will also go a long way in enabling me to feel and act confident in complex clinical situations etc.

now for that paragraph. I liked it when I wrote it and thought it resonated well with the quote I used from I Ching at the beginning of my ps.
 
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I don't know why some people here was a bit forward. Regardless bad PS or not. A lot of people I know with similar stats are struggling to get IVs from carib school. That's people with USCE and interest in Psych.

Don't know why. Since same amount international applicants. Extra 200 psych applicants US MD means mid tier have more applicants. But lower end programs still no invite.

I really have a hunch it's people going on more interviews, and programs not adjusting for it. Like how FM and IM interviews more people per spot since they go further down list in lower tier programs.
 
thxleave said:
I really have a hunch it's people going on more interviews, and programs not adjusting for it. Like how FM and IM interviews more people per spot since they go further down list in lower tier programs.
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Who knows about this year, but between 2011 and 2015, psych hasn't had to go down any further on their lists (from 4.7 ranks/slot in 2011 to 4.6 ranks/slot in 2015, and minor variability in between). FM has gone from 5.1 to 5.9 and IM 5.9 to 6.5. Thus, it would be hard to argue based on the available data that there has been a meaningful change in how far down the majority of programs are falling on their rank lists.

Also, it doesn't really seem that a lot of people are over interviewing... perhaps just over applying. If that's actually the case, the effect would be that people are less likely to end up at the programs they really want, and nothing more. Of course, we don't know how things are really shaking out or how things have changed for bottom programs... but last year there were less soap slots than the year before, suggesting that programs have adapted just fine.
 
ICUinWonderland said:
now for that paragraph. I liked it when I wrote it and thought it resonated well with the quote I used from I Ching at the beginning of my ps.
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For future applicants, I'd personally recommend avoiding this.

My biggest pet peeves in personal statements are people who use (and especially who open with) quotes or definitions. I want to learn about you in your personal statement. Using the words of others does not impress or illuminate. Might just be me.
 
notdeadyet said:
For future applicants, I'd personally recommend avoiding this.

My biggest pet peeves in personal statements are people who use (and especially who open with) quotes or definitions. I want to learn about you in your personal statement. Using the words of others does not impress or illuminate. Might just be me.
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I think quote does tell you something about the person, and plus it's just 10 words in 850 word long PS, does it really take away that much of an information?
 
OP, did you quote the I Ching or the Tao Te Ching? The first, being purely oracular tool, is a text where very few of the statements contained within mean much outside of a strongly constraining context. The sentences that do have non-empty semantic interpretations are frequently baffling without a cultural context most American PDs simply will not have ("Prince Liu fired his bow but did not lose his sheep? What?")

The Tao Te Ching has more statements that can be interpreted at face value, but it is also perhaps the most gnomic of all the foundational texts of the major world religions. Not a good choice for quotation outside of context.
 
notdeadyet said:
For future applicants, I'd personally recommend avoiding this.

My biggest pet peeves in personal statements are people who use (and especially who open with) quotes or definitions. I want to learn about you in your personal statement. Using the words of others does not impress or illuminate. Might just be me.
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It's just you. 😀

It depends on the quote, and as ICUiW says, how well or not it reflects on the applicant. If it is something unusual (in a good way!), I might read further and enjoy it, and maybe even start the interview conversation by asking about it. If it's something trite, overused, or cliche--as they all too often are--well then...:vomit:
 
downwithDTB said:
Who knows about this year, but between 2011 and 2015, psych hasn't had to go down any further on their lists (from 4.7 ranks/slot in 2011 to 4.6 ranks/slot in 2015, and minor variability in between). FM has gone from 5.1 to 5.9 and IM 5.9 to 6.5. Thus, it would be hard to argue based on the available data that there has been a meaningful change in how far down the majority of programs are falling on their rank lists.

Also, it doesn't really seem that a lot of people are over interviewing... perhaps just over applying. If that's actually the case, the effect would be that people are less likely to end up at the programs they really want, and nothing more. Of course, we don't know how things are really shaking out or how things have changed for bottom programs... but last year there were less soap slots than the year before, suggesting that programs have adapted just fine.
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I am coming from USIMG POV. Places I interviewed at, the Caribs are at 15+. Same group getting same interviews at USIMG friendly places. There are a few people I met at 2-3 IVs at some less desirable places. Some of these people with low interviews had good scores too.

Otherwise some I met are doing Psychiatry back up. Classmates I know on trial.

You are right though. Can't tell till all data is released.
 
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