I'm going to attend the most expensive MD school in USA. Would debt be manageable? Thoughts?

[Ancient_Eldritch]

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I got into a MD med school and the cost of tuition is $75,000/year for out of state people like me and the total cost of attendance is around $110,000/year. I have no scholarships (would have received them in my acceptance letter), the financial aid office told me all I can get is loans (Stafford and grad plus), and it's impossible to get in state residence unless I marry a state resident. I got into a do school too which has a way lower cost ($35/000 year) too but I can't use that to negotiate with the MD school from what I understand

Is this sort of debt manageable? Four years of that is pretty insane, so I'm wondering if it would even be forgiven. I'm looking at doing the loan forgiveness program where if I work at a non-profit hospital for 10 years my debt will be forgiven. In that case I can theoretically double-dip, meaning make money while not paying off loans and get it forgiven at the end of 10 years of attending.

The thing is my loans will accrue interest during the four years of med school and four years of residency, and become an even nastier number. I don't want to end up owing such a high number there's no hope of Paying it off and they won't forgive it. Would such a program forgive a number that high? I'm also looking at ibr/PAYE but this is going be some seriously nasty debt.

What are your thoughts and what would you do in my situation? From what I understand most med students don't have an issue paying off their debt, but I don't know if they had debt this high. Also the majority of doctors I've volunteered with still owe a couple hundred thousand from medical school from 15-20 years ago, so I'm getting lots of mixed-messages.

Ps - These are the only two options I have and I'm already a reapplicant, so I'd rather not reapply.

 

[gmbz]

White Coat Investor. Buy his book.

 

[New_Slang]

Do some finance research and consider earning potential. I had this talk with my husband when were were looking at different tuitions and different loan repayment options.

1. How much money are you sacrificing by working at non-profit/academic hospital? Likely at least 10-20% or more annually than a colleague in your specialty in private practice.

2. Are you considering primary care? Other repayment options exist, but you need to be committed to primary care now -- there's a scholarship program for primary care docs in high-needs areas... cannot remember the name right now.

3. What kind of medicine do you ultimately see yourself practicing? If you want to be a competitive specialty, you probably should do the MD program based on historical limitations. A highly competitive specialty will have more earning potential over a lifetime so the debt will be more manageable.

4. Research the 10 year forgiveness - you still make payments on the loan while you earn the 10 years of non-profit/academic credit. That means they're really only forgiving approximately 25% or less of the total loans because you've already spent 10 years making minimum payments. Is it worth the pay cut to work there for 10 years to really only get a small amount paid back? See #1 again.

 

[order66.exe]

Consider HPSP. Depending on what your specialty of interest is, this may be one of the few cases where the financials may be worth it.

 

[New_Slang]

Consider HPSP. Depending on what your specialty of interest is, this may be one of the few cases where the financials may be worth it.

That's the name of the program I was trying to remember!

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

Do some finance research and consider earning potential. I had this talk with my husband when were were looking at different tuitions and different loan repayment options.

1. How much money are you sacrificing by working at non-profit/academic hospital? Likely at least 10-20% or more annually than a colleague in your specialty in private practice.

2. Are you considering primary care? Other repayment options exist, but you need to be committed to primary care now -- there's a scholarship program for primary care docs in high-needs areas... cannot remember the name right now.

3. What kind of medicine do you ultimately see yourself practicing? If you want to be a competitive specialty, you probably should do the MD program based on historical limitations. A highly competitive specialty will have more earning potential over a lifetime so the debt will be more manageable.

4. Research the 10 year forgiveness - you still make payments on the loan while you earn the 10 years of non-profit/academic credit. That means they're really only forgiving approximately 25% or less of the total loans because you've already spent 10 years making minimum payments. Is it worth the pay cut to work there for 10 years to really only get a small amount paid back? See #1 again.

Great point about non profit hospitals I knew there had to be a catch 🙁.

The reason why I chose the MD is because I want to go into anesthesiology or surgery. I interviewed at a bunch of DOs and some MDs, and MD schools really offer me a lot more for my speciality goals. Plus I won't have to take 2X as many boards, and will have dedicated step prep.

During financial aid presentations I also asked about speciality loan forgiveness for rural and underserved communities. The answer I got was a resounding No that it's only for those in primary care 🙁.

I've looked for outside scholarships too and there isn't much out there. I called and talked to the schools financial aid dept and they were like "fafsa will give you loanS that's about it".

What options would you recommend? I've looked at hpsp and decided it really wasn't for me bc I'm the kind of person who wouldn't just go into the military for this, I'd genuinely want to have a passion for military med if I decided to this.

 

[el_duderino]

I would stick with the DO school and hope another MD acceptance comes along.

 

[order66.exe]

Here is the other one: http://www.usphs.gov/student/NHSC.aspx

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

Consider HPSP. Depending on what your specialty of interest is, this may be one of the few cases where the financials may be worth it.

Even if I'm not interested in military medicine? Wouldn't I have to do boot camp and Couldn't I be deployed? From what I read I'd be in active duty. I looked into this a little and was against it bc I'd to be genuinely passionate about military med to do this. Depending on how it'd actually work out though in practice I can see it really helping.

 

[el_duderino]

Don't do HPSP if you're not interested in serving.

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

Here is the other one: http://www.usphs.gov/student/NHSC.aspx

Those are for primary care tho 🙁

I would stick with the DO school and hope another MD acceptance comes along.

The costs make the DO so tempting, but I'm really interested in a competitive specialty, so the MD education really offers me a lot in that regard. There's only one md school I haven't heard from and odds are I'm not getting in there 🙁.

 

[musicalfeet]

Omg what school charges 75k in tuition...@_@

 

[order66.exe]

Even if I'm not interested in military medicine? Wouldn't I have to do boot camp and Couldn't I be deployed? From what I read I'd be in active duty. I looked into this a little and was against it bc I'd to be genuinely passionate about military med to do this. Depending on how it'd actually work out though in practice I can see it really helping.

Read the mil med forum. Doctors do a bootcamp lite* as far as I know. You can be deployed, you will be active duty but on the other hand there is opportunity for surgery.

 

[New_Slang]

Great point about non profit hospitals I knew there had to be a catch 🙁.

The reason why I chose the MD is because I want to go into anesthesiology or surgery. I interviewed at a bunch of DOs and some MDs, and MD schools really offer me a lot more for my speciality goals. Plus I won't have to take 2X as many boards, and will have dedicated step prep.

During financial aid presentations I also asked about speciality loan forgiveness for rural and underserved communities. The answer I got was a resounding No that it's only for those in primary care 🙁.

I've looked for outside scholarships too and there isn't much out there. I called and talked to the schools financial aid dept and they were like "fafsa will give you loanS that's about it".

What options would you recommend? I've looked at hpsp and decided it really wasn't for me bc I'm the kind of person who wouldn't just go into the military for this, I'd genuinely want to have a passion for military med if I decided to this.

Actually this is what I meant instead of HPSP - acronyms are hard! http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/loanrepaymentprogram.html

I don't know. How's the match data for the DO school? I totally understand not wanting to take on the massive amounts of debt, seeing as I'm currently paying off my undergrad and post-bacc loans en masse before starting medical school. I'm guessing you're more of a traditional student so as a slightly older and financially experienced person, DEBT SUCKS. However you don't want to let fear of the debt limit where you choose to go to school.

Of all the debt to have, student debt won't ever be erased in bankruptcy, but it won't ever be "held against" you when getting a mortgage, etc. It is seen as "good debt" generally.

 

[el_duderino]

Those are for primary care tho 🙁



The costs make the DO so tempting, but I'm really interested in a competitive specialty, so the MD education really offers me a lot in that regard. There's only one md school I haven't heard from and odds are I'm not getting in there 🙁.

What specialty?

Also, I'm amused that we have Ancient Eldritch and New Slang in this thread.

 

[Citygirl44]

It really depends on your specialty. $400,000 may seem like alot now, but it may not be a problem. I have many friends whose parents who are anesthesiologists or surgeons , they are very wealthy (from their careers). I live in NYC, and even with paying back med school loans they are able to live a very comfortable lifestyle. Now if you take those loans out and change your mind and end up doing Primary care, IDK.

 

[danib2k15]

Which school charges this much?

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

Your school doesn't have any subsidized loan options? At least with those, your loans wouldn't be accruing interest while in med school/residency.

I'm sorry, dude. Student debt is a ****ing nightmare.

I know it's a different situation in medical school since you have the potential to earn a lot of money once you're done but for what it's worth, I took out a LOT of private loans for undergrad and I've regretted it almost every single day since I graduated. I went to an amazing, prestigious school and it has benefited me in some ways but the amount of debt I have as a result has also severely limited me in my job and housing prospects, in my ability to travel and do fun things, and in my choice of medical school. All I'm saying is not to take that amount of debt lightly.

Also, if I were you, I wouldn't even consider HPSP unless you're really motivated to be in the military.

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

What specialty?

Also, I'm amused that we have Ancient Eldritch and New Slang in this thread.

Anesthesiology most likely also considering surgery and emergency med

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

Actually this is what I meant instead of HPSP - acronyms are hard! http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/loanrepaymentprogram.html

I don't know. How's the match data for the DO school? I totally understand not wanting to take on the massive amounts of debt, seeing as I'm currently paying off my undergrad and post-bacc loans en masse before starting medical school. I'm guessing you're more of a traditional student so as a slightly older and financially experienced person, DEBT SUCKS. However you don't want to let fear of the debt limit where you choose to go to school.

Of all the debt to have, student debt won't ever be erased in bankruptcy, but it won't ever be "held against" you when getting a mortgage, etc. It is seen as "good debt" generally.

It's a new do school so no match list yet

 

[el_duderino]

EM as a DO is no problem. Anesthesiology and surgery are tougher.

 

[Dr. Death]

Which schools are we talking about? I'm assuming it is an upper tier DO and a lower tier MD. If that is the case, go to the DO school, work hard, become as surgeon or anesthesiologist and have half the debt

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

Which schools are we talking about? I'm assuming it is an upper tier DO and a lower tier MD. If that is the case, go to the DO school, work hard, become as surgeon or anesthesiologist and have half the debt

Md is university of Illinois at Chicago. DO school is actually a lower tier/new DO school that is a Mixed bag.

 

[el_duderino]

The obvious answer is to start hitting the dating sites for the MD school. Target older women. Get married fast.

 

[kinda_desperate]

Which school charges this much?

http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...lic-medical-schools-for-out-of-state-students

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

The obvious answer is to start hitting the dating sites for the MD school. Target older women. Get married fast.

Hahaha I would if I was single. Honestly the first thought I had during the financial aid presentation where they told me the residency requirements was "I wonder if anyone has planned a temporary marriage to avoid this damn OOS tuition "

 

[Dr. Death]

Md is university of Illinois at Chicago. DO school is actually a lower tier/new DO school that is a Mixed bag.

And you have no other pending applications or interviews?

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

And you have no other pending applications or interviews?

I have one Md I haven't heard from post interview and it's not looking good or like something I can count on. I also got some pending interviews at some newer dO schools which I'm skeptical about attending.

 

[deleted659912]

Don't you only need to pay $100 dollars or something to hold your spot? I personally would say pay the deposit and not to worry about it until April.

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

Don't you only need to pay $100 dollars or something to hold your spot? I personally would say pay the deposit and not to worry about it until April.

Yep already paid it. I doubt my options are gonna change by then tho.

 

[deleted659912]

Don't give up hope! IIs are still being given out and you still have that one school you haven't heard back from. EM, Anesthesiology and Gen Surg are all fairly do-able as a DO, so I don't think that will be much of an issue. P.S. UIC is my dream school! Although I'm instate and it is significantly cheaper lol

 

[jk1006]

Looking into the rules if you moved to Illinois right now, got a job as soon as possible and worked there up until (and slightly into med school) for a 1 year period, you could then apply for residency and be granted it. It's a huge life decision and would require you getting a job in Illinois, but you could then be considered a resident by your second year saving you the roughly 40-50k a year extra.

"During the one-year period in which a person attempts to establish residency, a person must be financially independent. He/she must rely upon gainful employment in Illinois or prove reliance upon resources in Illinois for more than fifty percent of the income sufficient to provide for tuition, fees, and normal living expenses, e.g., food, clothing, housing, and transportation. Income earned as a result of University enrollment, such as educational loans, graduate assistantships, or student employment, is not considered evidence of intent to establish residency. During the one-year period in which a person attempts to establish Illinois residency, a person must reside in the state primarily for other than educational purposes."

 

[deleted659912]

^ That's possible but OP would have to defer school for a year. That one year residency requirement won't be filled if you're attending school for any of the 12 months...

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Md is university of Illinois at Chicago. DO school is actually a lower tier/new DO school that is a Mixed bag.

You could have more options in April, but even if the situation is the same, I would stick with an expensive md instead of a new do school - considering your specialty interests.

 

[Lannister]

"During the one-year period in which a person attempts to establish residency, a person must be financially independent. He/she must rely upon gainful employment in Illinois or prove reliance upon resources in Illinois for more than fifty percent of the income sufficient to provide for tuition, fees, and normal living expenses, e.g., food, clothing, housing, and transportation. Income earned as a result of University enrollment, such as educational loans, graduate assistantships, or student employment, is not considered evidence of intent to establish residency. During the one-year period in which a person attempts to establish Illinois residency, a person must reside in the state primarily for other than educational purposes."

Isn't that the catch though? It was my understanding that time spent as a full-time student doesn't count towards the 12 months of residency required to establish residency. Might be wrong though.

Also, why do people keep posting about HPSP when OP has already said s/he is not interested in military? Seriously, I cannot imagine a worse decision than choosing to join the military for financial purposes. I really don't think we should be encouraging that.

 

[bc65]

I would not be okay with nearly a million dollars in loans after interest unless I was dead set on a specialty that is likely to remain well-paid in the future (cosmetic derm / plastics, ortho spine, neurosurg)

A bit off topic, but for the record, plastic surgery generally pays less than ortho, unless you have a cosmetic practice and are also an extreme outlier. Most plastic guys do cosmetic and still don't match ortho.

 

[Affiche]

Honestly I would defer for a year and establish IS residency. I would not take out that much money in loans for two reasons 1. Your interests may change and 2. No offense, but as a reapplicant with only 1 MD acceptance and a low tier DO acceptance, you have to accept that there's a chance you may not be competitive enough for the lucrative specialties. Everyone should accept that going into med school but especially someone who's struggling to be competitive in the first place.

 

[Lannister]

Honestly I would defer for a year and establish IS residency. I would not take out that much money in loans for two reasons 1. Your interests may change and 2. No offense, but as a reapplicant with only 1 MD acceptance and a low tier DO acceptance, you have to accept that there's a chance you may not be competitive enough for the lucrative specialties. Everyone should accept that going into med school but especially someone who's struggling to be competitive in the first place.

Do you know if most schools would accept establishing residency as an acceptable reason to defer?

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

Honestly I would defer for a year and establish IS residency. I would not take out that much money in loans for two reasons 1. Your interests may change and 2. No offense, but as a reapplicant with only 1 MD acceptance and a low tier DO acceptance, you have to accept that there's a chance you may not be competitive enough for the lucrative specialties. Everyone should accept that going into med school but especially someone who's struggling to be competitive in the first place.

Medical school is hard to get into in the first place. It's hard for anyone not to struggle to get in honestly. Some of the best students come off the waitlists, so I doubt that shows I'm going to have an extra hard time in med school.

Looking into the rules if you moved to Illinois right now, got a job as soon as possible and worked there up until (and slightly into med school) for a 1 year period, you could then apply for residency and be granted it. It's a huge life decision and would require you getting a job in Illinois, but you could then be considered a resident by your second year saving you the roughly 40-50k a year extra.

"During the one-year period in which a person attempts to establish residency, a person must be financially independent. He/she must rely upon gainful employment in Illinois or prove reliance upon resources in Illinois for more than fifty percent of the income sufficient to provide for tuition, fees, and normal living expenses, e.g., food, clothing, housing, and transportation. Income earned as a result of University enrollment, such as educational loans, graduate assistantships, or student employment, is not considered evidence of intent to establish residency. During the one-year period in which a person attempts to establish Illinois residency, a person must reside in the state primarily for other than educational purposes."

I'm very surprised about this considering that the financial aid and admissions presenters told me the only way to obtain residency is through marriage.

 

[claduva94]

Do you know if most schools would accept establishing residency as an acceptable reason to defer?

Definitely not. You would want something else like Americorps.

 

[jk1006]

Medical school is hard to get into in the first place. It's hard for anyone not to struggle to get in honestly. Some of the best students come off the waitlists, so I doubt that shows I'm going to have an extra hard time in med school.


I'm very surprised about this considering that the financial aid and admissions presenters told me the only way to obtain residency is through marriage.

I think previous posters made a good point that the last line specifies you cant be in Illinois for educational purposes, so you would need to defer a year. You'd have to do more research into it for sure to see if you could find some loophole or anything, but considering the cost it'd be worth the effort to research.

 

[Affiche]

Medical school is hard to get into in the first place. It's hard for anyone not to struggle to get in honestly. Some of the best students come off the waitlists, so I doubt that shows I'm going to have an extra hard time in med school.


I'm very surprised about this considering that the financial aid and admissions presenters told me the only way to obtain residency is through marriage.

It's not though. Plenty of us apply once, get multiple acceptances and still don't expect to be the top performers in medical school. Of those applying, you're not swimming at the top of the pool, so I'm not sure what makes you think you'll be swimming at the top once you're in medical school and all the mediocre applicants have been weeded out. I'm not saying this to be mean, but taking out over half a mil in loans to bet on all of a sudden becoming an academic superstar when in the past you haven't been isn't a good idea.

 

[Affiche]

Do you know if most schools would accept establishing residency as an acceptable reason to defer?

I know that my state school does allow you to defer for financial reasons but I'm not sure what UIC's policy is. If it were me, I would call the school and say I have substantial debt that I need to pay down before matriculating and ask if deferral is an option.

 

[Ancient_Eldritch]

It's not though. Plenty of us apply once, get multiple acceptances and still don't expect to be the top performers in medical school. Of those applying, you're not swimming at the top of the pool, so I'm not sure what makes you think you'll be swimming at the top once you're in medical school and all the mediocre applicants have been weeded out. I'm not saying this to be mean, but taking out over half a mil in loans to bet on all of a sudden becoming an academic superstar when in the past you haven't been isn't a good idea.

It's a very competitive and highly selective process. You got in your first try and that isn't the case for a significant portion of people accepted. Plenty of the best don't get in the first round. My point is just bc I took another cycle doesn't mean I'm going to struggle to get by in med school like you said earlier. That's a massive assumption on your part, especially considering that once you brush past the mcat and gpa very little in the selection process for med schools is predictive of future success in med school.

 

[vantheman]

It's not though. Plenty of us apply once, get multiple acceptances and still don't expect to be the top performers in medical school. Of those applying, you're not swimming at the top of the pool, so I'm not sure what makes you think you'll be swimming at the top once you're in medical school and all the mediocre applicants have been weeded out. I'm not saying this to be mean, but taking out over half a mil in loans to bet on all of a sudden becoming an academic superstar when in the past you haven't been isn't a good idea.

Watch out everyone, we have a hot shot here.

 

[Affiche]

It's a very competitive and highly selective process. You got in your first try and that isn't the case for a significant portion of people accepted. Plenty of the best don't get in the first round. My point is just bc I took another cycle doesn't mean I'm going to struggle to get by in med school like you said earlier. That's a massive assumption on your part, especially considering that once you brush past the mcat and gpa very little in the selection process for med schools is predictive of future success in med school.

No, the massive assumption here is you thinking that matching into a lucrative specialty is essentially guaranteed for you. It's not. Even the best students will struggle to be competitive enough for these specialties. I'm telling you to hope for the best but plan for the worst. There's nothing wrong with applying multiple times or only getting one acceptance, but you need to be realistic about how much money you'd be borrowing and realize that your plan to pay it off isn't a sure thing. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

It's a very competitive and highly selective process. You got in your first try and that isn't the case for a significant portion of people accepted. Plenty of the best don't get in the first round. My point is just bc I took another cycle doesn't mean I'm going to struggle to get by in med school like you said earlier. That's a massive assumption on your part, especially considering that once you brush past the mcat and gpa very little in the selection process for med schools is predictive of future success in med school.

I'm not sure the advice being given here is helpful. You should go research on your own about how residency works and whether the school would even allow you to defer. Once you have all that info, make the best decision for yourself.

 

[Affiche]

Watch out everyone, we have a hot shot here.

Oh, please. I don't consider myself an exceptional applicant at all. All I'm saying is that matching into the most well-paid specialties is far from a sure-thing and betting financial ruin on those chances isn't wise even for the best of applicants.

Edit: I'm also probably a couple years older than most of you and coping with paying back students loans right now. It's easy to pretend your borrowed amount is just Monopoly money until you have to start paying it back, and then you realize that all of this borrowed money may have actually closed more doors for you than it did open them.

 

[NonTrad16]

Oftentimes the full COA is in excess of what a person needs, right? And is your SO able to work, or is the loan to fund you both (and/or a kid)? Living frugally if your partner can provide COL would make the burden a bit less unbearable, but more in line with manageable debt levels.

If you're going to need the full COA to support yourself and another... It's a gamble. Specialists with low debt can still be cash poor, and primary care physicians can dominate debt, it's just a matter of the individual and their ability/willingness to deal with their finances/expectations well.

I'd see how the rest of the cycle pans out, discuss with the financial offices/SO, etc and just think it over. Reapplying isn't an option -- you have acceptances, so you need to find a way to use one of them since achools will know you've been accepted.

 

[GrapesofRath]

No, the massive assumption here is you thinking that matching into a lucrative specialty is essentially guaranteed for you. It's not. Even the best students will struggle to be competitive enough for these specialties. I'm telling you to hope for the best but plan for the worst. There's nothing wrong with applying multiple times or only getting one acceptance, but you need to be realistic about how much money you'd be borrowing and realize that your plan to pay it off isn't a sure thing. That's all I'm saying.

Well I mean what is it that you are saying? Is it that if OP can't get a deferment for a year to establish residency(or their state has weird rules about establishing residency) that they shouldn't take the MD offer and go DO instead?

I don't want to turn this into a whole MD vs DO discussion thread but the disadvantages of a DO aren't really as simple as people make it out to be. I agree a borderline MD candidate who was a re-applicant probably won't be above average in their class. But that's not really the key point here:

It's not about a DO not being able to do the most competitive specialties often times. The much bigger issue is you just get alot more bang for your buck with an MD: an average MD student with a 230 Step 1 Score will just have more options for specialties and at least as importantly better quality programs for specialties as possibilities vs an average(or even above average) DO who also takes Step 1 and has that same 230 score. I'm not really sure what you were getting at but if it's, take the DO if you can't get a deferment because you probably won't do well enough in MD to get a top specialty, that's not really considering alot about why MD's have have real advantages over DO's and I wouldn't agree with that.

Also as an aside to the OP, anesthesiology isn't that competitive of a residency, especially with the way things have been trending recently.