IM programs graduating from where you can literally chose your fellowships..

[Onco]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Someone told me that if you get in one of these programs you can actually 'chose' your fellowship.. Is that a correct assumption?

Am I missing anything? Any input would be great.. Sorry if the thread is redundant

MGH
Hopkins
UCSF
Duke
Columbia
U Virginia
BWH
Cornell
Yale
Stanford
UCSD
Rush
U Penn
Wash U
Baylor
Mich. Ann Arbor
U. Chicago
UTSW
Vanderbilt
UCLA

 

[MacGyver]

I'm calling BS on that.

Most of the big name programs have like 25 interns a year. If all 25 of those guys tried to get into cardiology or GI they wont all make it. There are simply too few slots in cards/GI, the most competitive fellowships to accomodate the entire intern class of the "big name" programs.

Sure, their fellowship match rate is better than others, but I think you still have to shine at your program to match in a good fellowship.

 

[viostorm]

What about UTSW?

What about Case-Western?

I'm not suggesting they be added I was just wondering ... I imagine they have good matches. I kind of have my eye on UTSW because I like Texas so any insight would be appreciated and I really like cards.

 

[jennie 21]

I've been to UTSW, Michigan, Yale, and MGH so far, of the ones on the above list. At all of these programs, the people I spoke to said that every resident in the past few years who has tried to match into Cards or GI has matched into a fellowship. That doesn't mean they got their choice of fellowship, necessarily, just that they got one in the field. I think it's a fair assumption that if you go to most of the above programs (and don't do anything to shoot yourself in the foot, and make some sort of effort to do research) you will probably match into cards or GI somewhere if you want to. Not necessarily into the program of your choice, though. And a few of the programs on that list strike me as kind of out of left field--Rush??? As far as I'm aware, it's not in the same league as most of the schools on that list.

As far as UTSW, I've seen their match list, and it is impressive. They matched 17 or 18 people into cards last year (or maybe the year before last?), out of 50 residents, not all of whom want to do cards of course. The majority also matched to excellent programs.

 

[Onco]

Thanks for your input. I've interviewed at a number of places in the list I mentioned. The impression that I got from residents was mixed. However I suspect some of the residents were not as forthright as I wanted them to be. My impression is that you DO chose your speciality if you are at a top spot.. i.e. if you graduate from Columbia, getting Cards is no big deal.. where you get Cards is perhaps the only concern.

On other hand if you graduate from a 'medium' program, just getting in Cards is very tough no matter how well you did during residency.

 

[googlee]

Onco,
While that has some grain of truth to it, I think it is important to keep in mind, you could end up at a great fellowship if you are a strong candidate as an individual, even if you went to a mediocre program, and vise versa, if you did nothing at an IVy program, your chances might not be as strong. The name only helps to some extent.

Thanks for your input. I've interviewed at a number of places in the list I mentioned. The impression that I got from residents was mixed. However I suspect some of the residents were not as forthright as I wanted them to be. My impression is that you DO chose your speciality if you are at a top spot.. i.e. if you graduate from Columbia, getting Cards is no big deal.. where you get Cards is perhaps the only concern.

On other hand if you graduate from a 'medium' program, just getting in Cards is very tough no matter how well you did during residency.

 

[Dr. ZZ]

Let's list programs that basically leave you no chance of picking or getting a fellowship...i'll start

1. 75% of NYC community IM programs (Jamaica, Elmhurst, NY Downtown, etc)

 

[Onco]

To be honest, I would say community programs ANYWHERE!

Basically if you completed residency from a community program, at least my understanding is that you are perceived as a primary care doc or at most a hospitalist.

Google,

Mediocre programs do let you down in the long run. Its the same mistake we made when we were at med school... i.e. thinking if we honor/ace at a mediocre school we are better off than being average-mediocre student at IVY. Now, observing the match process, NOTHING on this planet beats IVY league. Thats just my observation.

 

[medstud2006]

Should UNC be on that list? I enjoyed my interview day a lot, but couldn't get a sense of how training at that program would be perceived elsewhere (esp on the west coast where I want to end up). I don't know the numbers as far as Cards/GI placement, but do remember thinking not many placed outside the greater southeast area. thoughts?

 

[gutonc]

Should UNC be on that list? I enjoyed my interview day a lot, but couldn't get a sense of how training at that program would be perceived elsewhere (esp on the west coast where I want to end up). I don't know the numbers as far as Cards/GI placement, but do remember thinking not many placed outside the greater southeast area. thoughts?

This is one reason why I think obsessing over where a program places its fellowship applicants is kind of silly. The huge-name programs (UCSF, Stanford, The Harvards, Mayo, Columbia, Hopkins, etc) put people all over the place b/c the kind of people who want to go to one of those places are also the kind of people who want to go to the "top" (whatever that means) fellowship programs, regardless of location.

Other residency programs on the other hand (particularly those outside the NE) have a tendency to attract people who want to go there both for the program and other, perhaps non-educational reasons such as family, lifestyle, COL, etc. Many of these people will want to stay put (or at least nearby) when they choose a fellowship. As a result, lots of programs tend to send their grads to nearby places or the home institution. What this looks like on paper is that State University's IM program matches lots of people in Cards, GI, etc but more than half of them stay at State U. This can be interpreted either as "State U has a great fellowship" or "State U's grads can't match anywhere but State U so it must not be that great of a program." The one that gets forgotten is "State U's IM program attracts people who want to stay in or near State U City and since State U is the only program w/ fellowships for 150+ miles in any direction they want to stay at State U for their fellowship rather than move across the country again."

Moral of the story is that a lot of people want to stay at their home institution for fellowship, not that they can't match anywhere else.

 

[Onco]

Agreed location matters. But then again, Penn State would run a mile on broken glass to get a resident who's graduating from U. Penn..

Everyone loves Ivy-league

 

[googlee]

Ok, I guess since we are talking IVY.. I ought to mention, Mayo should be in your original list, right? I know isn't on the coast, but I think its Ivy.

 

[lloyd braun]

Mayo is definitely not Ivy. Is it even associated with a university?

 

[EaglesPA]

Ok, I guess since we are talking IVY.. I ought to mention, Mayo should be in your original list, right? I know isn't on the coast, but I think its Ivy.

Mayo is definitely not Ivy. Is it even associated with a university?

People have come to use the term "IVY league" to represent those generally considered to be the top academic and most selective universities.
Of course, the original Ivy league is actually an inter-collegiate Football conference consisting of eight schools in the North East - Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Darthmouth, Harvard, Princeton, UPenn and Yale.

 

[Onco]

I think the old Ivy league has evolved into an elite-league.. Mayo is part of the elite league.. Perhaps I missed Cleveland Clinic, Case Western Reserve in the original post..

Dartmouth is no longer elite, though. For IM, its at best a mediocre program. Brown is kind of mediocre as well..

 

[RastaMan]

I think your list should have 2 tiers:

Most elite:
Rush

2nd tier:
Every other program

 

[Onco]

I think your list should have 2 tiers:

Most elite:
Rush

2nd tier:
Every other program

You must be kidding.. 😀

 

[cherry ghost]

i'm an IM resident at one of the above listed programs and know the stats for the last 3 years. yes our program does very well in the fellowship match but very few people name their program. matching at our residency already implies and selects for above average candidates who then go on to do good things while as a resident. most people who peform up to the standard of the residency end up matching well. however, there are people who underperform during residency and likewise underpeform during the fellowship match or don't match at all. so in short, i'm sure the residency helps, but the performance and the individual matters equally as much. also, there is a big difference between residents' research background within the same residency. some residents have extensive publications from years in the lab and the obviously match better than those without extensive research experience.

 

[TommyGunn04]

Should UNC be on that list? I enjoyed my interview day a lot, but couldn't get a sense of how training at that program would be perceived elsewhere (esp on the west coast where I want to end up). I don't know the numbers as far as Cards/GI placement, but do remember thinking not many placed outside the greater southeast area. thoughts?

I remember seeing UNC's fellowship match list when I interviewed there, and I was negatively impressed by the fact that an enormous proportion of them stayed at UNC for fellowships. I saw this as a negative thing because, generally speaking, their fellowship programs aren't all that stellar, and it seemed as if residents stayed there because it was the best place they could get into coming out of the residency program. Others seemed to match mostly in the southeast, and very few into really top programs. Of course, they'll tell you that their residents stay at UNC because they love it, but you should take such assertions with a grain of salt. Then again, I tend to agree with brooklyneric's observations above about state grads wanting to stay nearby; you need to consider this possibility as well.

Ultimately though, the relevance of these concerns all comes down to what you plan to DO with your fellowship. If you're interested in academics then yes, it probably matters where you train. But if you're planning to join an endocrine practice in your local community, your patients will probably not know nor care where you trained. So why not stay close to home, or stay in the city where you'd like to settle down? There's a lot more to the decision than "rankings" (but for those of us interested in academics, we're essentially forced to pay attention to them).