IM/Psych and Triple Board residencies. Are they worth it or good?

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DOC PENGUIN

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These Residencies are confusing me. More of them are popping up and some of them from reputable programs (Duke.) However, a lot of people here are saying it is not that good as it will not do psychotherapy well. Any other reasons and should one person apply to these programs.
 
It's a common theme within medicine that those w/o particular training will advocate their adequacy through their training. Those with additional training justify that to truly practice x you will have needed that additional training in it. This same idea is repeated whether it's regarding mid-level providers, FP and how deep/shallow they should practice before referring to a specialist. It's also prominent within subspecialties of fields. Over the past year or so on this forum it's been demonstrated how you really need fellowship training to truly practice in some areas of psych (addictions, CL, etc.) Obviously the vast majority of psychiatrists trained in one specialty (psych) and will advocate how unnecessary training in dual/triple board programs are (while at the same time the field strongly advocates for the absolute necessity of training in medicine [and how important general med is in psych] to be able to effectively be an rx mental health provider). Since graduates of dual/triple board programs are few and far between, they're often not found on this forum opining on why it is good/bad for any particular type of career so you'll often find a generalized conclusion about the lack of utility of such programs perpetuated in large part by those who haven't completed said training. I don't mean this as a criticism or even have an opinion whether it's true or false, but I mention it as a rather important caveat to consider. I would guess in light of what your goals may be that speaking to people who have completed that training would really be the only ones who could help to an appreciable degree. The only person on this forum I'm aware of is michaelrack but I don't ever recall hearing his opinion on it. May be worth it to inquire.
 
The only person on this forum I'm aware of is michaelrack but I don't ever recall hearing his opinion on it. May be worth it to inquire.

I've given my opinion on this issue in past threads. Med/psych residents often get inferior psychotherapy training. This combo made more sense in the past before C and L (psychosomatics) became an official subspecialty. Med/psych won't increase your income over psych alone but may improve your ability to treat certain populations.
Med/psych is a popular combo for docs who go on to do sleep fellowships.
That about sums up what I have said previously.
Don't know anything about the peds triple board programs
 
I've given my opinion on this issue in past threads. Med/psych residents often get inferior psychotherapy training. This combo made more sense in the past before C and L (psychosomatics) became an official subspecialty. Med/psych won't increase your income over psych alone but may improve your ability to treat certain populations.
Med/psych is a popular combo for docs who go on to do sleep fellowships.
That about sums up what I have said previously.
Don't know anything about the peds triple board programs

Thank You Very Much. Can you link me to some of your discussions. Also what is Psychosomatic?
 
Ha, that was meant to be comical. We may have medical degrees, but Wikipedia is still the final resource on everything.

A lot of people have different opinions on med/psych. At st2205 said, most psychiatrists think it's a waste and most med/psych people think it was super-useful. As a med student, I've done a rotation in med/psych and thought that they were able to do things that psychiatrists couldn't, but there's a fairly narrow scope for the field. A combined med/psych unit, as splik says, makes a big difference... the only ones I know of are at Duke and Iowa, and I think some people at Tulane are trying to put one together.

Splik is also right that these programs aren't "popping up." Every year, there are fewer programs offering med/psych combined programs. IIRC, we've gone from 12 to 11 to 10 to 9 in the last few years.
 
Regardless of someone's training, an experienced psychiatrist who has perhaps considered the multi-boarded route and who has exposure to the hiring markets would be able to give a good opinion to a med student on its usefulness.

I'd be more suspicious of an opinion from a multi-specialist who stayed in academics.

Of the multi-specialists that I've encountered the motivations seem more intrinsic--they like having the knowledge and don't mind the sacrifices in acquiring it. Usefulness to them might be a different metric than looking at it's market value and cost/benefit career wise.

The question I will be asking myself going forward is what do I want to do in psychiatry and what do I need to do it. A child fellowship is needed to work in that sector, a forensic fellowship will likely be needed to establish the credibility to work in that one. Those are my interests.

I haven't seen an indication for a med psych dual residency credential. And the c&l fellowship is more efficient. Hence as the other posters said, they aren't popping up with this option. I don't see how these decisions and the answers you need to make them can be hid from anyone who wants to know. You just find the person doing the work you want to do and ask them what it took to get there.

Career enrichment and academics were the only answers I've heard for the multi-boarded set.
 
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i will add that 1) a psychosomatics fellowship is not needed for a career in C-L psychiatry (my residency program has probably the largest academic consult-liaison dept in the country and the main guy here did not do a c-l fellowship and told me I do not need to do one to establish myself as a major figure in c-l psychiatry) and 2) c-l psychiatry is essentially being a psychiatric consult in the general medical setting (inpatient or outpatient). that is vastly different from caring for the medical needs of psychiatric patients which is NOT what c-l psychiatrists do, and would border on malpractice. just as i would get annoyed if IM fiddled about with the psych meds i rx'd, they would get annoyed if I fiddled about with the meds the rx'd for the pt they asked for a psychiatric opinion on.

I believe that going forward, you WILL need the fellowship to be able to be board-certified in C/L, however. Many leading lights in the field, as well as younger attendings who finished before the sub-specialty was formed, were "grandfathered in" as far as board eligibility, but this will be phased out over time. Just FYI.
 
I believe that going forward, you WILL need the fellowship to be able to be board-certified in C/L, however. Many leading lights in the field, as well as younger attendings who finished before the sub-specialty was formed, were "grandfathered in" as far as board eligibility, but this will be phased out over time. Just FYI.

I am one of those who was able to grandfather in.
 
i will add that 1) a psychosomatics fellowship is not needed for a career in C-L psychiatry (my residency program has probably the largest academic consult-liaison dept in the country and the main guy here did not do a c-l fellowship and told me I do not need to do one to establish myself as a major figure in c-l psychiatry)

2009 was the end of the grandfathering period.
http://www.abpn.com/cert_psychmed.html

From here on out, everybody has to do a fellowship in order to be certified in C/L.
 
Correct, but you don't have to be certified in C/L to practice C/L.

Yeah, I'd noticed that... my impression was that programs in the future will prefer to hire C/L-certified docs for C/L jobs... is that wrong?
 
Yeah, I'd noticed that... my impression was that programs in the future will prefer to hire C/L-certified docs for C/L jobs... is that wrong?

I'm sure they would if they weren't a shortage of the certified. I think most places count themselves lucky if they cannot only hire a psychiatrist willing to do consults, but also have some modicum of training in the area. It may not be the case in big cities and top academic centers (where certification would likely be required), but any place I've ever been people who actually want to do C&L are hard to come by.

I do a good bit of C&L right now where I'm the back-up for the regular guy (who is certified). I don't like doing consults, but I dislike them less than others in my department. Thus, according to the deal I made, I back up the regular C&L guy and in exchange I don't have to do call.

The chair where I trained is psych/IM. I asked him about it once and he said that he did it as the "last refuge of the terminally undecided." At the moment, he only practices psych and told me he wouldn't be comfortable practicing as an internist though he is boarded in both. He also said that pretty much everyone he trained with ended up doing either one or the other and not both.
 
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DISCLAIMER: This post is based on my experiences and the experiences of my friends. Different people have different experiences, and I don't want to make the mistake that some do by decreeing that my experiences must be the objective reality of the universe. Your experience may vary.


The real, but not incredibly helpful, reason to apply to any of these programs, a combined program or a fellowship, is because you want to. With the exception of child fellowships and forensic fellowships, they aren't necessarily practical if you want to work outside of major institutions and you want to do reasonably mainstream sorts of work. If you want to develop a specific expertise, fill a niche in a large organization, or want to be involved in academics as an educator, an expert in a particular subfield, or a researcher, then the programs may make sense.

If you're motivated by entirely practical things, that's fine. You probably shouldn't read further. You can if you want.

If you're motivated by other things, like a desire to do a specific type of job for a specific population in a specific setting, want to be in academics, if you want to be an expert in something that your colleagues aren't, then pursuing these unnecessary paths is an entirely reasonable option. They may not be requisite, but they are reasonable.

I know folks who have graduated from 4 triple board programs, 3 family med/psych programs, and 1 IM/psych program. About half of these folks were absolutely miserable during their training, feeling they were spread too thin and unable to concentrate on electives and things they were very interested in. The sort of people who want to do these programs tend to be overachievers, and the idea that you have to be good at everything but maybe not great at anything (at least for the first few years) can be really frustrating. It's hard watching your colleagues in psych working 55 hour weeks as a second year while you're still working 80 hour weeks on inpatient units. It's hard having less elective time because, frankly, your "elective" was picking up the other specialty. Towards the end, these folks would tend to develop some more specific interests, would have more time to pursue them, and seemed happier. In retrospect, pretty much everybody was happy they made the choice they did, even if it was rough getting there.

Most of these folks did not go to these programs because they "couldn't decide". I can't think of any of them who ever said that. Of course, motivations are subject to later revision.

Contrary to what most people here say, most of the folks I know who have done these programs are actually practicing a little bit of both. Most of them are able to do this because they are in large academic settings and have already sacrificed pay and have some flexibility in what they do. The pediatricians see more kids with developmental disabilities, and the adult docs work in clinics specifically designed (even connected with) clinics that service folks with severe and persistent mental illness. This is a unique setting, only available in particular environs, and not something one would broadly count on, but it exists where I am and in places where some friends are. The IM/psych guy did do a c/l fellowship after his residency. Most of his time is spent doing c/l, but he has a day or so a week in the medical clinic for the SPMI population.

I still believe the overall trend is for folks that do combined residencies to wind up mostly practicing one specialty, and that specialty tends to be psychiatry or, in the case of TB programs, child psych. But that's not an absolute.

Regarding the "non-essential" fellowships, they're really a matter of what kind of psychiatrist you want to be. In many settings, even in academics currently, you can still get jobs doing c/l and addiction and geri without fellowships, especially in programs in less desirable areas (outside of VERY major cities--not particularly undesirable areas). Much of this is because the number of folks trained in geriatrics, c/l, and addictions is a small number. Most places cannot require it at this point, and may never. That said, at least where I am, folks with such fellowships will be strongly preferred over another. But many places are just trying to fill a spot and are happy if you speak English, never mind have a specialty training. In larger organizations and in academic organizations, this trend may go towards subspecialization. Whether that matters in 2012 isn't entirely clear, but it's probably fair to say it doesn't matter yet. In 2017? Who knows. Trends are hard to predict.

If you are sympathetic to the idea that "I want to be a specialist in this area, I want to have a whole year devoted to in-depth training and reading and learning about this area, and I can survive one more year with a pgy5-6 salary," then the fellowship may be for you. If you want to be a researcher, it's a slam dunk. If you want to be an academic otherwise, it makes pretty good sense. If you want to do private practice or work outside of large organizations and you don't have to live in a city with a large number of psychiatrists, then maybe it's not for you. Whether you want to do the fellowship or not is all about your goals and what you want. The fellowships tend to support the goals of a minority of residents. That's okay. It's a big tent. Not everybody likes cilantro, either.

The only real cost to doing the fellowships are the opportunity costs. An opportunity to make 100k-ish more that year. The opportunity to take a particular job you want to take that may not be available later. The opportunity to go ahead and get a practice going. Opportunity costs are important. They are also not the end of the world.

Either because they are actually good or because people don't like cognitive dissonance, most folks who do these fellowships are glad that they did them. Maybe it's because they were the sort of people whose priorities the fellowships match, but also because when people spend a year doing something for less pay, there is certainly a tendency to rationalize that in your head. By either mechanism, I don't think many people regret the decision to do these fellowship.

I do get tired of the universal declarations on this board that say that there is no reason to do these fellowships or combined tracks. That's simply untrue. Whether they support your personal and professional goals is another matter.

One last thought is that a particular fellowship at a particular location might not make sense. I'm looking at addiction fellowships, and I've been around the one at my medical school and the one at my residency. Both of them produced very skilled graduates who were more highly in demand, continued to specialize in addictions in academics or in large organizations, and who felt very confident in their ability to handle pretty much anything that came their way. So, I think addiction fellowships make sense. If you haven't been around a very good program, maybe you would come to an opposite conclusion about addiction fellowships. At both of these programs, it would be difficult for a new graduate to be considered for a spot doing addiction psychiatry as an attending without the fellowship. That wasn't true just a few years ago. How generalizable is that now or in the future? Maybe not much.

It's your life. You don't have to be a martyr to please other people and work harder than you have to. You also don't have to feel bad if your particular career goals are different than someone else's and if you are motivated by different things than someone else. It doesn't make you better or worse than them, it just makes you who you are and who you want to be. Okay, now that I'm in full after school special mode, I should stop.
 
^^^^ Likely the best, most succinct post I've seen on the subject.
 
Billypilgrim's post is excellent and well worth the read. I completely agree with his comments about the utility of fellowship training.

In regards to combined residencies, people who ambitiously study their given fields in medicine would find it very hard to disagree with the sentiment that there is more knowledge and experience to be had than is allowed by the hours in a day. Pursuing two very diverse fields like Internal Medicine and Psychiatry during residency means what you gain in breadth you sacrifice in depth. Basic math. Beyond residency, most folks focus on one field or the other. That field, from what I've seen, tends to be psychiatry, which supports sunlionnesses Chair's sentiment:
The chair where I trained is psych/IM. I asked him about it once and he said that he did it as the "last refuge of the terminally undecided."
Many to most folks I've seen that do the combined residencies end up doing so in the fear of hanging up the stethoscope theme. MANY, many multitudes of us strongly considered combined residencies during medical school before doing a lot of navel gazing and deciding on psych. The good combined residencies specifically try to help screen people like us out.

I wouldn't go so far as to say combined residencies don't have their role. If your passion is to practice in med/psych clinics the rest of your life, these combined residencies are fantastic. What you lose in your general medicine and psychiatry skills you'll make up in a being very good at for where the two fields intersect. If you stick with med/psych clinics, the combined residency is well worth it. Otherwise?

I do find it interesting that these med/psych clinics tend to be found most prominently in academic settings that have combined residency programs. Most other universities and hospitals tend to do quite well with collaborative care and other models without ever using folks that are combined residency trained. This makes me wonder about solutions looking for problems.
 
Just curious what sort of paths people interested in research related to things like the interface between mental illness/health and immunology/endocrinology/etc. tend to take with training?

(Assuming you want to do academics/research and not just be a "heal yourself with your thoughts" yoga instructor 😉, but also dont feel like picking up a PhD on the side)
 
Just curious what sort of paths people interested in research related to things like the interface between mental illness/health and immunology/endocrinology/etc. tend to take with training?

(Assuming you want to do academics/research and not just be a "heal yourself with your thoughts" yoga instructor 😉, but also dont feel like picking up a PhD on the side)

combined clinical training isn't really useful for research
 
combined clinical training isn't really useful for research

Thats what I figured, would it be more likely to be an rheumatologist/immunologist/endocrinologist who then focuses research towards things relating to mental health/illness or would it be more likely be a psychiatrist who has a immunological/endocrine focus towards their research?
 
exactly what i was wondering. If u were interested in research at the interface. what is the ideal route to take.

Just curious what sort of paths people interested in research related to things like the interface between mental illness/health and immunology/endocrinology/etc. tend to take with training?

(Assuming you want to do academics/research and not just be a "heal yourself with your thoughts" yoga instructor 😉, but also dont feel like picking up a PhD on the side)
 
Just curious what sort of paths people interested in research related to things like the interface between mental illness/health and immunology/endocrinology/etc. tend to take with training?

(Assuming you want to do academics/research and not just be a "heal yourself with your thoughts" yoga instructor 😉, but also dont feel like picking up a PhD on the side)

Clinical fellowships don't train you to be a researcher. What you're interested is psychoneuroimmunolgy (PNI), which is itself an entire area of research. Look into the American Psychosomatic Society (APS), which is heavily PhD's, but really wants more MD's involved. The research produced is absolutely fascinating, and goes from immunological based work to studies such as how does taking an antidepressant after an MI help (or not) mortality, even in the absence of depression. The research is heavily basic science based and they would like more psychiatrists especially since most of the MD's involved aren't even psychiatrists. Since there are many PhD's they have difficulty making clinically based research studies and are always interested in interfacing with clinicians. Researchers are often interested in psychiatrists as well on projects just since it looks good on grant applications.

If you're serious about the research you may want to consider doing a research fellowship (or talking to clinical fellowships about doing a combined clinical/research fellowship. NIMH has some starter awards to kickstart psychiatrists trying to become career researchers. I thought about it but ultimately decided other life and career interests take priority at this time, though I did research during residency.
 
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