IM-Psych Dual Residency

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wannabemusician

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My dilemma is multifaceted. Primarily, I love the challenge of IM, like to order and analyze labs, like difficult cases etc. However, I find the psycho-social side of medicine fascinating, and this was my first "love" of medicine.

I know you are thinking, HEY go into IM-Psych. I am strongly considering this. In many of the papers I read on the dual residency, people left to do psych because it is better paid and the hours are better. A lack of a defined role for dual boards is scary too.

Any advice would be a HUGE help. Also, I am looking for a comprehensive guide to PSYCH programs. any body know of one?

Some questions:

What are the job opportunities for IM-Psych like? Where do they work?

Is it crazy hard to do two boards in 5 yrs?

Will I come out feeling like the jack of all trades but the master of none?

How strong are the current programs?
(I currently am obsessed with Duke, UC Davis and Tulane)

Hasta la proxima!
 
Is it just me, or does an IM-psych residency seem like a better deal overall than a CL fellowship? It only takes one year longer than a psychiatry residency alone, and it seems like it gives you a lot more latitude. Is the main drawback that it's just really sucky to go through?
 
Is it just me, or does an IM-psych residency seem like a better deal overall than a CL fellowship? It only takes one year longer than a psychiatry residency alone, and it seems like it gives you a lot more latitude. Is the main drawback that it's just really sucky to go through?

yeah but what do you plan to do with that latitude? the vast majority of all double-boarders (not just IM-psych) end up just doing one job. doing it to "have more flexibility" is just adding years to your training for no good reason. Doing it because you have a very specialized niche you want to fill (e.g. running a med-psych floor) is a better reason. But whether there are enough jobs like that out there to make it worth it is another matter...
 
You are absolutely correct. How in the world would I figure out the job market for a IM-Psych dual?
 
Wait--aren't you learning different things in a CL fellowship than in the medicine part of a psych-IM residency? If CL is what you really want to do, and you have no doubt about wanting to get there through psychiatry, isn't the fellowship the way to go?
 
Having gone through the process of applying to Med/Psych, but ending up matching to psych, I can speak to this a little. Though of course if there's anyone in a program or an actual graduate, all the better.

The usual myth is that double boarders end up doing one or the other. From all those I've talked with, that's true, to a point. It's much easier to find a job in one or the other. On the other hand, your job opportunities are really unlimited, especially if you come from a top program. Having interviewed at Duke (great program by the way), I was very impressed. One great story was a graduate from the program having to move to ohio for her husband's work. So she sent letters to cleveland clinic and a couple other big name hospitals in the area saying "Hi. I'm coming to your area, I don't know what's available, I don't really know what I want to do, but hey, interested?" She got letters from all these places basically telling her to Absolutely come there and they would CREATE a job for her doing whatever she wanted to do.

Yeah it's that flexible.

However there's tons of drawbacks. My med school had a med-psych, and I talked to a bunch of faculty who were graduates from it. The consensus is that you get tons of job offers in practices, but that most often they're for IM practices where they just want to give you all the hardest patients, which leads pretty quickly to burn out.

The other downside is that in order to fit two specialties into 5 years, you're sacrificing HEAVILY on elective time, resulting in struggling just to keep up and feel mildly competent with two very complex fields, and not having enough time to really explore how you fit into the crossover. Also, few of the programs have really figured out how to train in the overlap, rather than just bouncing back and forth. Some are pretty good at it though, having med-psych wards, or spending a lot of time doing c/l work or primary care for psych patients (another common job for these double boarders).

But the comments before were right about money. Billing is made for one specialty or the other. So in the current system (which some are trying to change), you end up working twice as hard for less money, on the challenging patients that no one else can handle. If you're up for a challenge, there it is.

All that being said, I found it interesting because of my interest and research in mind-body medicine and psychoneuroimmunology, which I thought could work well with this double boarding. And while I really liked Davis and Duke, I ended up ranking some categorical programs higher for many reasons, and here I am. The other thing to remember is that you are an MD. Some people go into psych and choose to not use all their other medical training, but that's OPTIONAL. There's a bit of a movement now to have psychiatrists do primary care for their psych patients, because hell, so many won't go see anyone else but do trust you. A lot of residencies offer this as clinic time, including mine. Furthermore, C/L does offer some interesting overlap that you won't necessarily get if you're double boarded (more time spent focused on the crossover area), and the name itself (psychosomatics) tends to indicate that those involved can work in areas of mind-body medicine, which is where some of the research in that subspecialty is going (or so I heard on the interview trail last year. I haven't re-engaged it yet.)

Long and lengthy. The short of it is that it's a helluva lotta work, could be rewarding, could also lead to burnout, and REALLY should require intensive time to make sure it's what you want. I'd recommend doing externships at these programs.
 
All that being said, I found it interesting because of my interest and research in mind-body medicine and psychoneuroimmunology, which I thought could work well with this double boarding.

Hey Nitemagi,
I'm also interested in psychoneuroimmunology and psychoneuroendocrinology. What is the best way to get into this sort of thing?
 
Hey Nitemagi,
I'm also interested in psychoneuroimmunology and psychoneuroendocrinology. What is the best way to get into this sort of thing?

Since you're listed as pre-medical, your best shot is to find out if anyone is doing research in it in your area, and volunteering or getting involved in a lab. If you're referring to a longitudinal involvement in your career, just being an MD or psychiatrist is a huge leg-up. Most people that have done research in this area are Ph.D.'s, usually psychologists or immunologists. I did research in it during med school and was one of the only MD's(in training at least) regularly present and I feel I added quite a bit to conversations when planning our project, specifically from training as an MD. Being double boarded in IM-Psych wouldn't hurt, but is in absolutely no way a requirement.
 
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