IMG chances at neurosurgery?

[amazzo]

Hi everyone,
I'd like to know your opinion about the chances of an IMG getting a spot in a neurosurgery program in a specific situation.

If an IMG student has:
- Excelent scores in both step 1 and 2ck (260+)
- 1-2 years of research in a neurosurgery lab from a good university, getting as a result some articles published in medline journals and a good professional network.
- Yet, this IMG student has NOT a PhD or any other kind of post-graduate degree.

Are his chances good? At least in the place where he did research?
Or, being an IMG, the chances are still near zero? (As I've read in some other threads).

Thank you, very much.

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[Mad Jack]

0% unless he graduated top of his class from a very highly ranked international university (University of Cambridge, Karolinska Institutet, etc). Even in that case, his chances would be low without some published research in the area and excellent ECs.

 

[amazzo]

Well, but I asked the chances considering having articles published.
I'm asking in a general way, but obsviously for me. I'm gonna graduate in Brazil, in a non-special university, and, for what it's worth, not the top of my class either.
What other than research, publishing and/or externship could be considered as efficient extracurriculars in this case?

Thank you for your answer.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Well, but I asked the chances considering having articles published.
I'm asking in a general way, but obsviously for me. I'm gonna graduate in Brazil, in a non-special university, and, for what it's worth, not the top of my class either.
What other than research, publishing and/or externship could be considered as efficient extracurriculars in this case?

Thank you for your answer.

People like you generally do a research or clinical fellowship in the US lasting 1-2 years, preferably at a department with a residency. Publishing is important, but it is essential to get amazing letters of recommendations and form connections with people that have influence in the field. These are the IMGs that match neurosurgery.

 

[amazzo]

Thanks for the answer, Serous Demilune.

I am willing to do 1-2 years of research (I think 3 might be too much for me), in a department with residency. And I am aware that, besides publishing, it's fundamental having a good network, connecting with the right people, and acquiring great letters of recommendation.

By the way, what does one need in order to do clinical fellowship? Can a M.D. only (without speciality or PhD) do it?

The thing is that I've been taking a look at the IMGs that have matched (found only two, but I know there's more, as the MATCH statistics show that this year 6 IMGs matched in a total of 200 and a few spots). And these two had more than just research (one had fellowship, the other had excellent ECs). And here in Brazil, M.D.PhD (doing PhD together while graduating) is not available at universities as it is in the USA (so I'm gonna be only MD when graduating).

Also, I don't have any "prizes" (scholarship and stuff) as this isn't even common in my country. (University is for free, and there are not many competitions/prizes). In fact, the only thing I can recall I have is few good results in national olympiads (which I don't think is worth for much). Also, I'm not the 1st of my class (as I think this is something that could count for something but is not my case). I don't know what else could count as Extracurricular relevant information.

So, basically, my EC is not strong, and I'm wondering if with excelent usmle scores (260+), working really hard in research for 1-2 years and making the right connections, besides publishing, I could make up for being an IMG and not having great EC. Or do IMGs only get the spot when, besides having all of that, they also have PhD/Fellowships /Excellent ECs (other than research)?
I'm not sure about the fellowship (If I could apply, I might do it), but in my case, I won't have PhD or a lot of prizes and awards in the EC.

Thanks.

Edit: From what I've been reading, fellowships are only for senior residents or specialists, so I couldn't apply for one, is that right?

 

[Serous Demilune]

Thanks for the answer, Serous Demilune.

I am willing to do 1-2 years of research (I think 3 might be too much for me), in a department with residency. And I am aware that, besides publishing, it's fundamental having a good network, connecting with the right people, and acquiring great letters of recommendation.

By the way, what does one need in order to do clinical fellowship? Can a M.D. only (without speciality or PhD) do it?

The thing is that I've been taking a look at the IMGs that have matched (found only two, but I know there's more, as the MATCH statistics show that this year 6 IMGs matched in a total of 200 and a few spots). And these two had more than just research (one had fellowship, the other had excellent ECs). And here in Brazil, M.D.PhD (doing PhD together while graduating) is not available at universities as it is in the USA (so I'm gonna be only MD when graduating).

Also, I don't have any "prizes" (scholarship and stuff) as this isn't even common in my country. (University is for free, and there are not many competitions/prizes). In fact, the only thing I can recall I have is few good results in national olympiads (which I don't think is worth for much). Also, I'm not the 1st of my class (as I think this is something that could count for something but is not my case). I don't know what else could count as Extracurricular relevant information.

So, basically, my EC is not strong, and I'm wondering if with excelent usmle scores (260+), working really hard in research for 1-2 years and making the right connections, besides publishing, I could make up for being an IMG and not having great EC. Or do IMGs only get the spot when, besides having all of that, they also have PhD/Fellowships /Excellent ECs (other than research)?
I'm not sure about the fellowship (If I could apply, I might do it), but in my case, I won't have PhD or a lot of prizes and awards in the EC.

Thanks.

Edit: From what I've been reading, fellowships are only for senior residents or specialists, so I couldn't apply for one, is that right?

No problem! The fellowships you're thinking of are for subspecialties in neurosurgery that are completed after residency. There are some pre-residency fellowships available for people in your situation. I think Boston University has one (but they don't have a residency program), as well as U of Iowa and U of Arizona. Most are research fellowships. From what I understand, the few "clinical" pre-residency fellowships require only an MD, and have you doing intern-level floor work and maybe some observation in the ORs. I don't know too much about them.

It is also my understanding that ECs do not count for much in the match process. Your step scores, clinical grades, research, and letters are much more important. I'm sorry I can't be more specific, as I have not gone through the match yet myself.

 

[Mad Jack]

People like you generally do a research or clinical fellowship in the US lasting 1-2 years, preferably at a department with a residency. Publishing is important, but it is essential to get amazing letters of recommendations and form connections with people that have influence in the field. These are the IMGs that match neurosurgery.

I thought the clinical fellowship window was basically closed under the new ACGME rules? It used to be that a FMG could go fellowship>residency, but now the ACGME requires fellows to have graduated from an ACGME or AOA program prior to beginning an ACGME accredited fellowship. The only exception would be non-ACGME fellowships, but there aren't a whole lot of those that are reputable enough to get you the sorts of letters needed for neurosurg, or at least that was my impression.

 

[Mad Jack]

Your chances of matching any specialty aren't all that good. Keep in mind that neurosurgery is one of the more competitive specialties out there, and that 93.1% of positions went to US MD seniors last year. Past MD grads, DOs, and foreign medical graduates got a total of 14 positions between them. I would strongly encourage you to also attempt to match a different specialty, as putting all of your eggs in the neurosurg basket is very likely to result in a failed match. The simple fact is, as a non-US IMG, you're viewed as a fourth-tier applicant. Every year you unsuccessfully apply will make your chances of ultimately matching far, far less likely. I hate to sound pessimistic, but neurosurg is a reach specialty for most US MDs, and it is like winning the lottery for IMGs. In a world where only 45% of IMGs are matching, you shouldn't be only gunning for one of the hardest possible specialties to match, unless you can only see yourself doing neurosurg, in which case you might ultimately end up having to train and work in Brazil.

 

[amazzo]

Well, I understood that I could only go for Research fellowship too, as clinical fellowship is only possible after residency.
Thanks for the answer, Serous Demilune.

Thank you for your sincerity, Mad Jack. It's ok to sound pessimistic in this case. IMGs got 6 spots last year. From what I've heard, my chances of matching Internal Medicine, in a non-competitive program, with good usmle scores and an externship, aren't that bad either (might be wrong, though).
I understand that.

The thing is I really like neurosurg and I'd also love to live in the usa (this I've wanted for a long time, and I might go for another specialty, yes, in order to live in the us). I just thought both would be the dream, and tried gathering information about the likelihood of that happening if I applied myself in every possible way a brazilian could (as I've stated before)... And there are always different opinion. Some say that making the right networking and publishing, it's possible (and I don't think that could be compared with winning the lotto).
Yet, I understand your view as well, I'm not an US MD, neither american, which gets me to the bottom of the list, from where I'd try to go up with the networking and publications (and I admit that it sounds damn optimistic, as there probably are americans doing the same).
I sincerely don't know if should try to win this lotto (probably not), as there is a lot of time involved. That's why I am asking about my (bad) chances, to know the risk.

Let me ask you a important question: you said "also attempt to match a different specialty". Can I attempt to match two specialties in the same match? That would be good, as I would not feel I threw a year away when I didn't match neurosurg. Furthermore, can applying to more than a specialty jeopardize my chances? (could they know?). I am not only gunning NS, unless gunning other specialties is not possible and/or jeopardize my chances. In that case, I admit I'm not sure what I'm gonna do.

And just to say, I'd not try to match neurosurg before doing research for a year or 2, because, clearly, the programs like students to do excellent in their first try.

I'm gonna do a 2-month observership this year (at least that was the plan), and then I'll have more info too.
Thank you all.

 

[amazzo]

Another question. Doing Research (as in a research fellowship) would give me good pubs and maybe good connection, but there's something there lacking... the clinical experience. Are externships, in that case, possible and/or important? Is there another way to get clinical experience AFTER I graduate in Brazil?

Obs.: Mad Jack, I understood my chances are very very low and the fact I keep asking doesn't mean I'm gonna do what I'm asking about. I'm only trying to gather more info. Your point has been duly noted, and I thank you for your help. Keep answering if you'd like. You too, Serous Demilune.

 

[nidhi272]

.Not impossible. My friend went to Saba, graduated last year with above average basic science grades, average Step 1 and step 2 scores and 0 pubs and got into neurosurgery at UofOttawa. The main thing that really boosted him was LOR - so you get a neurosurgeon vouching for you, youre in.

 

[yorkshire_medic17]

Not impossible. I went to Saba, graduated last year with above average basic science grades, average Step 1 and step 2 scores and 0 pubs and got into neurosurgery at UofOttawa. The main thing that really boosted me was my LOR - so you get a neurosurgeon vouching for you, youre in.

Hi nidhi272, thanks for sharing your experience, that's encouraging to know, may I ask if you are an USA citizen?

 

[Dredge]

Not impossible. I went to Saba, graduated last year with above average basic science grades, average Step 1 and step 2 scores and 0 pubs and got into neurosurgery at UofOttawa. The main thing that really boosted me was my LOR - so you get a neurosurgeon vouching for you, youre in.

Is this for real?? I have so many questions! Also Congrats !!

 

[Nishant4108]

Not impossible. I went to Saba, graduated last year with above average basic science grades, average Step 1 and step 2 scores and 0 pubs and got into neurosurgery at UofOttawa. The main thing that really boosted me was my LOR - so you get a neurosurgeon vouching for you, youre in.

Hi Nidhi
Congratulations on getting into neurosurgery. I m a practicing neurosurgeon at delhi, india. What f my chances of getting into neurosurgery at USA. What will be the best route for that?
Thanks in advance

 

[tiedyeddog]

Hi Nidhi
Congratulations on getting into neurosurgery. I m a practicing neurosurgeon at delhi, india. What f my chances of getting into neurosurgery at USA. What will be the best route for that?
Thanks in advance

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[Giga_chad98683]

I personally know 3 imgs (indians) who matched into washington university, baylor and the third, somewhere in miami.
Not in the same year.
Things they had in common were..
Scores in excess of 265. (The one in wash u got 268 if my memory serves me right)
2 to 3 years of research in the SAME place. So they made excellent contacts.
10 to 15 publications.
And graduated from med schools ranked 1 and 2 in india.
Its a long road and you need to be very smart AND hardworking AND have luck on your side.

 

[frappalino16]

Not impossible. I went to Saba, graduated last year with above average basic science grades, average Step 1 and step 2 scores and 0 pubs and got into neurosurgery at UofOttawa. The main thing that really boosted me was my LOR - so you get a neurosurgeon vouching for you, youre in.

just to clarify, nidhi272 got accepted to a Canadian residency.