IMG friendly pathology programs?

[hasy]

Hello,

I need some advice on choosing programs. I am a US citizen IMG student applying for pathology and I am not sure which programs to apply to. I want to stay in the northeast area but am willing to go to good programs elsewhere if they are willing to take me.

I did well in both basic sciences and clinicals and got 259/99 on Step I and passed CS so far. Am taking CK in two weeks. I have research experience too.

Do you guys know any specific university programs that have been friendly to IMGs?

I would appreciate any input! Thank you!

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[Ishie1013]

I'm interested in this as well. I have similar stats (bit lower on the Step 1 score though!) but have no idea what my level of competition is. Even decent programs that have taken our students have ECFMG requirements and extra hoops. Since path isn't the favorite specialty among Caribbean grads (or anywhere), it's hard to assess which programs are friendly to us and which just haven't had any real exposure to us, but would still take us.

 

[KCShaw]

Hard for me to be specific in answering the question, since program subcultures can change very rapidly. I seem to recall a NY program being well known for having lots of IMG's, but which one I don't remember. Many programs seem to be happy to take IMG's with excellent USMLE scores.

In general, though, my experience has been that one is significantly better off compared to other IMG's if born or at least lived extensive stretches in the U.S., speaks English with a typical annoying American accent (which I can say because I..mostly..have one), and has excellent USMLE scores. This addresses what I perceive to be 3 of the biggest problems IMG's face -- cultural differences, communication barriers, and disbelief that some non-U.S. school could possibly prepare one to get through THEIR program and pass THEIR specialty's boards (while good USMLE scores doesn't mean they CAN, it's still the most widely used and recognized gauge). The other huge problem is straightforward discrimination(IMG/FMG)/elitism(AMG).

I don't know of anywhere that you can get licensed in the U.S. without a permanently validated ECFMG certificate. Maybe there are, and there are probably other hoops professionals with long-term experience can jump through -- just not really applicable to new graduates. That being the case I'm not surprised that I don't know of a program that would take someone without having taken the requirements for ECFMG certification up to that point, just as I don't know of a program that would take someone who hadn't passed Step I yet. Hoops -beyond- that...I do recall an Indian resident I worked with for a while who had been required to give a presentation separate from her regular interview time and in addition to the requirements of other applicants.

Rude? Biased? Stereotyped? Racial/cultural discrimination? Unethical or outright illegal in most other settings? Of course. But commonplace nevertheless, as most IMG's already know, leading to this unfortunate but quite understandable thread.

 

[Ishie1013]

I don't know of anywhere that you can get licensed in the U.S. without a permanently validated ECFMG certificate. Maybe there are, and there are probably other hoops professionals with long-term experience can jump through -- just not really applicable to new graduates. That being the case I'm not surprised that I don't know of a program that would take someone without having taken the requirements for ECFMG certification up to that point, just as I don't know of a program that would take someone who hadn't passed Step I yet. Hoops -beyond- that...I do recall an Indian resident I worked with for a while who had been required to give a presentation separate from her regular interview time and in addition to the requirements of other applicants.

Thank you so much for your post!

On the ECFMG certificate, I meant that a lot of the program sites I'm looking on indicate a need for ECFMG certification for application or interview, which I won't have until after graduation. I've read that a lot of programs will waive that requirement when you call them, but it's still an extra step that isn't always cleared.

 

[green mantis]

I can't really speak about the Northeast, but here's what I can tell you about CA. For the record, I'm not a IMG. During my time in residency (03-07), we had a couple IMGs in each class. Many of the other non-top tier programs in CA had similar statistics. I'm guessing it probably isn't that different across the country.

As I've told other IMGs in the past, your best chance of getting into a residency is to have passed all 3 steps of the USMLE. From what I've seen, IMGs (in general) seem to have trouble passing Step 3. You're less of a liability if you have passed.

Some programs have sites that list their residents & where they went to medical school. I tend to think that those programs that have IMGs on their roster would be amenable to taking them.


----- Antony

 

[hasy]

I don't know how they expect ECFMG certification from people like me that are on the same time-line as US grads. I am in my fourth year and cannot get certification until I graduate. My original message was addressing the general bias they have against non-US grads, I wasn't even aware that some required certification for an interview! I understand needing Step 2 CK and CS before ranking but this is too much....

 

[hasy]

Thank you for all your input. i actually have seen resident lists on the programs' websites to see where they are from. But many programs do not have that info posted. And, it seems those top programs only take IMGs with a PhD or an extensive path background.

Although I see many foreign grads in other programs, I have seen only one program with a graduate from a Caribbean school like myself. Also, most programs specifically state that a current ECFMG certification is required. Although I don't know if it is an absolute requirement prior to application, I will post the info if I hear back from the few that I have contacted.

Waiting to apply until I get all of my Steps done + certification is not an option for me. I'm already pushing 30.

 

[zao275]

I know of a couple Caribbean grads who did path residency. One at Tulane and one at Memphis. I recall also seeing several others listed as residents when I was building the pathology wiki program lists (since I always try to "advertise" the website, here is the link to full list of pathology residencies and fellowships: http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Pathology_Fellowship_and_Residency_Directory).

By the way, which school are you in? I know someone at Ross. I was trained in the US and received the very unfortunate (and unwarranted) bias against the Caribbean schools. After seeing my friend attend Ross and seeing the intensity of the curriculum, all bias is gone. Maybe the Caribbean schools are willing to give people an easier chance at being accepted, but after you are in, it is sink or swim and definitely way more intense than my private med school in the States! My friend, as a second year med student, would ask me about pathology related things that I had NEVER heard of (as a pgy-4 resident at a very good program)! So congrats to you for making it through. I wish you the very best for residency!

 

[hasy]

I know of a couple Caribbean grads who did path residency. One at Tulane and one at Memphis. I recall also seeing several others listed as residents when I was building the pathology wiki program lists (since I always try to "advertise" the website, here is the link to full list of pathology residencies and fellowships: http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Pathology_Fellowship_and_Residency_Directory).

By the way, which school are you in? I know someone at Ross. I was trained in the US and received the very unfortunate (and unwarranted) bias against the Caribbean schools. After seeing my friend attend Ross and seeing the intensity of the curriculum, all bias is gone. Maybe the Caribbean schools are willing to give people an easier chance at being accepted, but after you are in, it is sink or swim and definitely way more intense than my private med school in the States! My friend, as a second year med student, would ask me about pathology related things that I had NEVER heard of (as a pgy-4 resident at a very good program)! So congrats to you for making it through. I wish you the very best for residency!

Sorry for the late reply. Been busy with applications. Im from SGU. I actually understand the bias against the students from the Caribbean. Obviously, as a group, our stats are lower for GPA and MCAT compared to US students. SGU tends to do better than other Carib schools during residency matching but its still not up to par with US schools.

But thank you for your encouragement!

 

[SPQR]

Sorry for the late reply. Been busy with applications. Im from SGU. I actually understand the bias against the students from the Caribbean. Obviously, as a group, our stats are lower for GPA and MCAT compared to US students. SGU tends to do better than other Carib schools during residency matching but its still not up to par with US schools.

But thank you for your encouragement!

2+, good luck on your application.

Anyhow, I kept in touch with my old college roommate (who went to a Carribean school). As an AMG myself, I am surprised at all the extra hurdles that stands in the way for an IMG just to apply for residency. Since we are in Path, it is interesting to note that the greatest living surgical pathologist (Juan Rosai) is an IMG (born in Italy, educated in Argentina)!

 

[Freak]

Speaking of Rosai ... wikipedia had this link. It appears he is releasing a slide collection in digital form.

https://www.secondslide.com/2S_Collection.php?CollectionId=1

 

[KCShaw]

On the tangent.. that digital slide collection (with current comments/update from JR) could be a real plus, particularly since it appears to be free. Especially for programs strapped for additional teaching materials.

On the topic of overseas trained pathologists, there are several well-known pathologists who originally trained or obtained their medical degrees elsewhere (Christopher Fletcher, Krishnan Unni, Renu Virmani...). Most of them mask that fact by taking on the "MD" even if that's not their original degree title, something partially thrust upon them by U.S. systems which not uncommonly will only allow MD or DO as your official title/degree designation. ABPath, as I recall (I know one of the big organizations does this, but I'm only mostly sure it's ABPath), will allow MD, DO, or nothing to be printed on your fancy board certification. Some journals when submitting online have a dropdown degree list which may not include MBBS. Etc.

 

[zao275]

Obviously, as a group, our stats are lower for GPA and MCAT compared to US students.

Exactly. Caribbean schools lower the threshold to allow students into med school by accepting applicants with lower MCAT or undergrad GPA's...neither of which have much of anything to do with what kind of doctor you will become. But the Caribbean schools make med school so tough that in order to survive it, you will learn the material VERY well, which seems to have much more to do with your potential to succeed in medicine that your MCAT score (in my mind at least).

 

[rendition]

Hard for me to be specific in answering the question, since program subcultures can change very rapidly. I seem to recall a NY program being well known for having lots of IMG's, but which one I don't remember. Many programs seem to be happy to take IMG's with excellent USMLE scores.

In general, though, my experience has been that one is significantly better off compared to other IMG's if born or at least lived extensive stretches in the U.S., speaks English with a typical annoying American accent (which I can say because I..mostly..have one), and has excellent USMLE scores. This addresses what I perceive to be 3 of the biggest problems IMG's face -- cultural differences, communication barriers, and disbelief that some non-U.S. school could possibly prepare one to get through THEIR program and pass THEIR specialty's boards (while good USMLE scores doesn't mean they CAN, it's still the most widely used and recognized gauge). The other huge problem is straightforward discrimination(IMG/FMG)/elitism(AMG).

I don't know of anywhere that you can get licensed in the U.S. without a permanently validated ECFMG certificate. Maybe there are, and there are probably other hoops professionals with long-term experience can jump through -- just not really applicable to new graduates. That being the case I'm not surprised that I don't know of a program that would take someone without having taken the requirements for ECFMG certification up to that point, just as I don't know of a program that would take someone who hadn't passed Step I yet. Hoops -beyond- that...I do recall an Indian resident I worked with for a while who had been required to give a presentation separate from her regular interview time and in addition to the requirements of other applicants.

Rude? Biased? Stereotyped? Racial/cultural discrimination? Unethical or outright illegal in most other settings? Of course. But commonplace nevertheless, as most IMG's already know, leading to this unfortunate but quite understandable thread.

Here it is an interesting thread related to the issue

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=728841

 

[Lemuel]

UMKC is another IMG friendly residency. I interviewed there last year and 75% of the residents are IMG.

 

[2121115]

Do you guys know any specific university programs that have been friendly to IMGs?

Umm... I think this describes, like, every pathology program.

 

[lurksalot]

Umm... I think this describes, like, every pathology program.

Not so much these days. The pool of AMGs applying to path is amazing. There are so many outstanding AMG applicants that it is harder to stand out as an IMG. Not impossible, but more difficult than say 15 years ago.

Some boards of registration make licensing Caribbean school graduates very difficult; I know some PDs that won't consider applicants from these schools because of this.

 

[GlassPusherJack]

places I interviewed that had IMGs: U of Miami, Mt Sinai Miami, USC (cali), i think uc davis, i have heard NYU but i dont know from personal experience, OHSU had one or two

places that didn't: Emory, Mt Sinai NY, UCSF, BIDMC, U Penn,

 

[hasy]

Well, I'm done with interviews but some info for future applicants:

1) These programs offered good number of interviews to IMG/FMGs this year: U of Miami, U of Maryland, U of Illinois, U of Mass., Brown, Rush, Baylor, SUNY Downstate, SUNY Stonybrook, SUNY Upstate, LSU-Shreveport, LSU-NO, Creighton. Of course, this is not a complete list -- but programs to consider for those applying next year.

2) I wouldnt agree that all path programs are IMG friendly. 1st tier programs want extensive pathology experience or PhD from IMGs to even consider them. Having high USMLE scores means very little.

 

[JPR22]

Not so much these days. The pool of AMGs applying to path is amazing. There are so many outstanding AMG applicants that it is harder to stand out as an IMG. Not impossible, but more difficult than say 15 years ago.

Some boards of registration make licensing Caribbean school graduates very difficult; I know some PDs that won't consider applicants from these schools because of this.

Given the job market, and the rising educational debt it seems kinda risky for amgs to go into path these days.

 

[lurksalot]

Given the job market, and the rising educational debt it seems kinda risky for amgs to go into path these days.

Risky or not, they are. Path has become very competitive.

I'm not entirely convinced the job market is as bad as people seem to say it is. I know of several groups in my area that are currently expanding, and all three of the Harvard programs are currently recruiting (although admittedly, not necessarily for junior people). Also, many good jobs are not advertised, so you can't just go by Outlines or CAP listings.

 

[KCShaw]

IMO, you can't go at all by the advertised positions. Many, many, many positions never get advertised, even if the group is actively recruiting a position in other ways (phone calls, head hunters/agencies, etc.). A few have HR requirements mandating they be advertised, even if they already have someone they fully intend to hire -- so what you do see advertised may not really be openings. One should still look at them, just keep in mind all may not be as it appears.

I do suspect there are more jobs out there than some people recognize, though I'm not about to conclude that makes the market any good.

 

[HbyHA]

places I interviewed that had IMGs: U of Miami, Mt Sinai Miami, USC (cali), i think uc davis, i have heard NYU but i dont know from personal experience, OHSU had one or two

places that didn't: Emory, Mt Sinai NY, UCSF, BIDMC, U Penn,

Penn has had several IMG in the past few years, including ones that are still there.

 

[GlassPusherJack]

Penn has had several IMG in the past few years, including ones that are still there.

sorry- guess i don't remember as well as i thought. mt. sinai ny did have 2 IMGs that both graduated last yr.

 

[Applebaum]

places I interviewed that had IMGs: U of Miami, Mt Sinai Miami, USC (cali), i think uc davis, i have heard NYU but i dont know from personal experience, OHSU had one or two

places that didn't: Emory, Mt Sinai NY, UCSF, BIDMC, U Penn,

BIDMC has a current resident from Germany.