IMGs in the top neuro programs?

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medsRus

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Do the top-names in neurology accept US-citizen IMGs? I'm talking about JHU, Mayo, UCLA, MGH, CCF, etc. Roughly, how many programs should be enough to secure a position somewhere good? Thanks! :)
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Yes, if you have the qualifications.

For an IMG, you need to apply 10 -15 programs if you are shooting (but getting at least 8-10 interviews) for the very top programs. Programs that do not interview you will not rank you. Still probabilistically, over 75% of IMGs match by their 3rd choice.
 
Fencer said:
Yes, if you have the qualifications.

For an IMG, you need to apply 10 -15 programs if you are shooting (but getting at least 8-10 interviews) for the very top programs. Programs that do not interview you will not rank you. Still probabilistically, over 75% of IMGs match by their 3rd choice.
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I just like the word.....probabilistically. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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Fencer said:
Yes, if you have the qualifications.

For an IMG, you need to apply 10 -15 programs if you are shooting (but getting at least 8-10 interviews) for the very top programs. Programs that do not interview you will not rank you. Still probabilistically, over 75% of IMGs match by their 3rd choice.
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what about in a few years, some others say american IMG's will only get IM.
 
"Still probabilistically, over 75% of IMGs match by their 3rd choice. "

i looked at the numbers cause i'm a big nerd, and this is what i came up with:

398 total PGY-2 neuro spots
-226 of 338 U.S. grads filled spots (56.8%)
____
172
-145 of 392 IMGs filled spots (37%)
____
27 spots from 14 programs went unfilled

Whether those 145 IMGs spots were filled at top schools remains a question. I thought the numbers were quite a bit better for U.S. grads. What gives? (possibly several people not ranking enough programs &/or people programs don't want?)
 
missinglink said:
"Still probabilistically, over 75% of IMGs match by their 3rd choice. "

i looked at the numbers cause i'm a big nerd, and this is what i came up with:

398 total PGY-2 neuro spots
-226 of 338 U.S. grads filled spots (56.8%)
____
172
-145 of 392 IMGs filled spots (37%)
____
27 spots from 14 programs went unfilled

Whether those 145 IMGs spots were filled at top schools remains a question. I thought the numbers were quite a bit better for U.S. grads. What gives? (possibly several people not ranking enough programs &/or people programs don't want?)
Click to expand...

Did you account for categorical programs that include a preliminary (PGY-1) year?
 
missinglink said:
"Still probabilistically, over 75% of IMGs match by their 3rd choice. "

i looked at the numbers cause i'm a big nerd, and this is what i came up with:

398 total PGY-2 neuro spots
-226 of 338 U.S. grads filled spots (56.8%)
____
172
-145 of 392 IMGs filled spots (37%)
____
27 spots from 14 programs went unfilled

Whether those 145 IMGs spots were filled at top schools remains a question. I thought the numbers were quite a bit better for U.S. grads. What gives? (possibly several people not ranking enough programs &/or people programs don't want?)
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for this analysis. But there are major flaws:

Where did you get "145 of 392 IMGs filled spots"? It is a common mistake to think all non US-seniors are IMGs, but you are forgetting about Osteopaths, Canadian, US graduates. So, here are the stats we know:

32 - US-IMGs matched
75 - Non-US-IMGs matched

Also, your match-rates are wrong. From the data, we know that there were a total of 730 applicants, 330 of which were US seniors. BUT, the non-US-seniors (392) are not further categorized, thus, we can't extrapolate match-stats for IMGs. I wonder why this info. wasn't given??
 
medsRus said:
Thanks a lot for this analysis. But there are major flaws:

Where did you get "145 of 392 IMGs filled spots"? It is a common mistake to think all non US-seniors are IMGs, but you are forgetting about Osteopaths, Canadian, US graduates. So, here are the stats we know:
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I don't believe Osteopaths are considered IMG's for the match. Aren't DO's considered US grads for it?
 
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HarveyCushing said:
Right, so DO's are considered in their own category for match.
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I'm glad you checked my reference. Yes, DOs are considered on their own. However, missinglink stated "145 of 392 IMGs filled [neuro PGY-2] spots (37%)". He erroneously included Osteopaths, Canadian, and US graduates in addition to IMGs (both US-citizen and non-US) in his/her calculations. THEREFORE, the use of IMGs in this statement is wrong. That's all...
 
medsRus said:
He erroneously included Osteopaths, Canadian, and US graduates in addition to IMGs (both US-citizen and non-US) in his/her calculations. THEREFORE, the use of IMGs in this statement is wrong. That's all...
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Ok, thanks for the clarification. I thought something seemed a bit off and that is why I brought up the question. Thanks.
 
I admit I took only a cursory glance at pg 11 PGY-2 and realize now it was very short-sided and way off (excluded PGY-1 and lumped US grads incorrectly - thanks medsRus and HarveyCushing). They define .Independent Applicants (IAs).. as all applicant categories excluding U.S. allopathic seniors. Table 14 shows of those ranking one speciality, ..unmatched ..US allopathic neuro seniors to be 1.9% (6 of 320) and unmatched neuro IAs to be 32.9% (68 of 207). So in short, it's great to be a US allopathic neuro senior and not so great to be an neuro IA (which is not new info).
And as previously mentioned the breakdown of the 32.9% for non-US IMGs, osteo's, etc. is not available. The best you can do is look at Table 4 (which appears not to include advanced PGY-2 positions) and draw your own conclusions (non-US IMG's matched 42.4% and unmatched 57.6%; osteo's matched 71.6% and unmatched 28.4%).
.
 
missinglink said:
.The best you can do is look at Table 4 (which appears not to include advanced PGY-2 positions) and draw your own conclusions (non-US IMG's matched 42.4% and unmatched 57.6%; osteo's matched 71.6% and unmatched 28.4%).
.
Click to expand...

To not mislead anyone, the data presented above by missinglink is for the match in general and not specifically neurology.
 
Which top programs have US-IMGs? Thanks!
 
HarveyCushing said:
Have you tried looking at the programs websites and looking under the resident profiles?
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Yes, but most of the top programs don't have such a page or they do not list which medical school the resident graduated from...
 
medsRus said:
Yes, but most of the top programs don't have such a page or they do not list which medical school the resident graduated from...
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........ If you use google you can find your answers for 10 programs in under 10 min.
 
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obviously medsRus wanted a person to do the job for him...and you just bit his bait. As a usIMG i have received invites from top places.....most programs do have residents bios in their page..but someone is just too lazy to research them.
 
sleepingneuro said:
obviously medsRus wanted a person to do the job for him...and you just bit his bait. As a usIMG i have received invites from top places.....most programs do have residents bios in their page..but someone is just too lazy to research them.
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Just thought I would help out. :cool:
 
sleepingneuro said:
obviously medsRus wanted a person to do the job for him...and you just bit his bait. As a usIMG i have received invites from top places.....most programs do have residents bios in their page..but someone is just too lazy to research them.
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Don't be such a p**sy! Show me the current residents and their medical schools for UCLA, Mayo, Case Western, USC, UCSF, UCSD, UCI, U Cin., UT-Houston?
 
medsRus said:
Don't be such a p**sy! Show me the current residents and their medical schools for UCLA, Mayo, Case Western, USC, UCSF, UCSD, UCI, U Cin., UT-Houston?
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UPenn and UCSF don't have any IMG from what I remember. Some of the other ones you listed do. Take a look at the residencies website, they should have the info listed for you.
 
medsRus said:
Don't be such a p**sy! Show me the current residents and their medical schools for UCLA, Mayo, Case Western, USC, UCSF, UCSD, UCI, U Cin., UT-Houston?
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dude, look at their websites...i am not going to spoon feed you...look at the current and past residents .

By the way, I was offered an IV at 4 of the 9 places you mentioned above...I dont think U of Cin OR UCSD is a top place..
 
sleepingneuro said:
dude, look at their websites...i am not going to spoon feed you...look at the current and past residents .

By the way, I was offered an IV at 4 of the 9 places you mentioned above...I dont think U of Cin OR UCSD is a top place..
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Interesting that you did not include these interview invites in the official interview thread, but you included placed like Albany and Iowa. Good luck!
 
Indeed- i stoped posting after another student cut and paste the wrong post, and hence erased some of my IV. no hard feelings though.
Out of the list he mentioned, i got invites from: Case Western, UCSD, UCI, and U Cin.
 
sleepingneuro said:
obviously medsRus wanted a person to do the job for him...and you just bit his bait. As a usIMG i have received invites from top places.....most programs do have residents bios in their page..but someone is just too lazy to research them.
Click to expand...

You got invites to "top places", but matched at University of Iowa...

That is why I am asking if US-IMGs can really match into top programs.
 
medsRus said:
You got invites to "top places", but matched at University of Iowa...

That is why I am asking if US-IMGs can really match into top programs.
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ZING!

Now now, be nice all. I can understand the OP, since many programs just list the names of residents, but not where they train.

I'm not an expert on the topic, but Hopkins seemed to have several IMGs when I visited. They also only had a quota of 6 slots via NRMP, but have matched 8-9 in the past, suggesting that they may fill some slots outside the match.
 
Amos said:
ZING!

Now now, be nice all. I can understand the OP, since many programs just list the names of residents, but not where they train.

I'm not an expert on the topic, but Hopkins seemed to have several IMGs when I visited. They also only had a quota of 6 slots via NRMP, but have matched 8-9 in the past, suggesting that they may fill some slots outside the match.
Click to expand...

That's great news. Are you sure they weren't there for pediatric neuro, since they seem to be much more IMGs in that field at top institutions.
 
medsRus said:
That's great news. Are you sure they weren't there for pediatric neuro, since they seem to be much more IMGs in that field at top institutions.
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Yeah I'm pretty sure. They had more international residents there than anywhere I interviewed. Was pretty cool actually. Always good to meet people from other places. I didn't ask them where they went to med school, but I imagine that some of them trained outside the US.

Also Mayo as an instituation has a long, long history of IMGs training/working there. Not sure about Neuro in particular, but I would look into it.

You'll be able to go somewhere good. There are a select few places that don't seem too high on IMGs, but if you're a stellar candidate you won't have a problem going to somewhere that you like.
 
Amos said:
Yeah I'm pretty sure. They had more international residents there than anywhere I interviewed. Was pretty cool actually. Always good to meet people from other places. I didn't ask them where they went to med school, but I imagine that some of them trained outside the US.

Also Mayo as an instituation has a long, long history of IMGs training/working there. Not sure about Neuro in particular, but I would look into it.

You'll be able to go somewhere good. There are a select few places that don't seem too high on IMGs, but if you're a stellar candidate you won't have a problem going to somewhere that you like.
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Do you think it's worth doing a visiting rotation at one of those places? The predicament is doing the clerkship at a place closer to my family in the States. Thank you.
 
medsRus said:
Do you think it's worth doing a visiting rotation at one of those places? The predicament is doing the clerkship at a place closer to my family in the States. Thank you.
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That is a good question and is probably worthy of its own thread.

Question 1: "How much does doing an away rotation help you get into the program you rotated at?"

Question 2: “Does the advice hold true for IMGs?”

I think away rotations (if you do well) do help you get an interview. Where I currently train, there are several surgical specialties that are among the best in the world, and they grant interviews to all their visiting rotators as a means of thanking them for their commitment.

Also where I matched for neuro, at my interview day there were a couple students there that were currently rotating from outside institutions.

Whether places are just "being nice" by offering an interview to those students or if they are actually interested is anyone’s guess. It DOES always help to have someone on the inside pulling for you with the admissions committee, so if you really hit it off with someone during your rotation that would help.

A lot of people on this board, myself included, did not do an away rotation and are happy with the results.
 
Amos said:
Whether places are just "being nice" by offering an interview to those students or if they are actually interested is anyone's guess. It DOES always help to have someone on the inside pulling for you with the admissions committee, so if you really hit it off with someone during your rotation that would help.
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I'm not sure I would buy the whole, "programing being nice" thing imho. It just doesn't make sense for a program to invite you and spend time interviewing you if they weren't interested. That of course doesn't mean that you will get an acceptance.

However one added benefit is as you mentioned; they know who you are yby doing an elective. It is always easier to accept a known entity rather than a person who they meet for a few hours one day. Rotating will definitely show off your weaknesses and strengths; at least the program knows what they would be getting if they ranked you. And of course if you do well on a rotation and are a good fit, it makes your case so much stronger as to why they should interview/rank you. But as Amos said, doing an away elective isn't necessary to match at a top program since a lot of neuro applicants don't do any away rotations.
 
HarveyCushing said:
I'm not sure I would buy the whole, "programing being nice" thing imho. It just doesn't make sense for a program to invite you and spend time interviewing you if they weren't interested. That of course doesn't mean that you will get an acceptance.

However one added benefit is as you mentioned; they know who you are yby doing an elective. It is always easier to accept a known entity rather than a person who they meet for a few hours one day. Rotating will definitely show off your weaknesses and strengths; at least the program knows what they would be getting if they ranked you. And of course if you do well on a rotation and are a good fit, it makes your case so much stronger as to why they should interview/rank you. But as Amos said, doing an away elective isn't necessary to match at a top program since a lot of neuro applicants don't do any away rotations.
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Yeah I agree it doesn't make much sense to spend time and money on applicants you are not interested in. I think a more likely reason is that some programs, particularly in fields like ophtho, ENT and derm, are only willing to interview applicants that are: 1) amazing, 2) are good and are a known entity to them.

Departments also likely ask themselves "is this someone we might consider for our residency program?" prior to inviting an away student for a rotation. Med students aren't overly important to the function of a department, so really one of the few benefits of accepting away rotators is to try and recruit them to your program.

It would be very interesting to see what % of applicants that matched at top programs actually did an away rotation at said institution.

Of course, one big advantage for the student is getting an extended look at a program to help you pick where to do residency. It's easy to get caught up trying to figure out how you will make yourself into great applicant vs. being confident and being picky about what programs might be good enough for YOU.
 
Amos said:
Of course, one big advantage for the student is getting an extended look at a program to help you pick where to do residency. It's easy to get caught up trying to figure out how you will make yourself into great applicant vs. being confident and being picky about what programs might be good enough for YOU.
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I agree. From talking to upperclassmen, this seems to be the most beneficial result from doing away rotations (as well as getting good LORs from well known attendings). Sure a program can look great during your interview day or what people have said on SDN; however being able to see how residents interact and treat each other, as well as how attendings interact with each other and treat the residents over the course of a month will tell you more than any webpage or interview can. IMHO I think that is worth it in and of itself. There is just something to say for spending a month at 1-2 programs that you are really interested to just see how good of a fit they will be. You will be spending 3-4 years there anyways, might as well know what kind of a situation you are getting yourself into.
 
[.......................................
 
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Whoa calm down everyone.

We're all professionals here. Telling people not to be lazy and "just look it up" is not helpful, nor is insinuating that a program isn't a good place to train.
 
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